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  1. #51
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    I like the idea of sharrows. I think the best bicycle facilities would be two or more same direction narrow lanes with sharrows giving the cyclist the entire right lane. Motorists could use that lane in the absence of cyclists, and it would give them another same direction lane in which to pass.

    Sharrows increase cyclist awareness among motorists much more than do bike lanes.
    Bike lanes tend to be placed far enough off to the side from a motorists intended path of travel to be easily disregarded.

    Shares legitimize use of the roadway by bicycles in the eyes of motorists.

    It appears to be fairly easy to incorporate bad or unsafe bike lane placement by incompetent design. This should be much less of a problem with sharrows.

    Sharrows should be placed to give the cyclist the right 1/2-3/4 of the right lane depending on the width of the lane and other factors. This would give the motorist enough room to pass safely by simply changing lanes.

    It has been my experience that a cyclist out in the roadway receives more consideration from motorists. Bike lanes tend to have the opposite effect by inviting closer and higher speed passing.

    Sharrows should be mandated on all roads where cycling is legal. The only exception would be limited access highways. The higher the speed limit and more congested a given road, the more important that it have sharrows to raise motorist awareness and to indicate to motorists that cyclists may be present.
    Last edited by CommuterRun; 09-20-09 at 08:35 AM.

  2. #52
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    sharrows plopped down in the middle of narrow 50mph lanes fails miserably as a bicycling facility in any serious consideration of bike transportation.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    sharrows plopped down in the middle of narrow 50mph lanes fails miserably as a bicycling facility in any serious consideration of bike transportation.
    Better than any facility type we have now. If you don't like it, don't ride your bike there.

  4. #54
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    danarnold, I'm going to introduce you to a new concept: validation of logical theories through observation and study. Your post carries the implication that no one has studied center of the lane bike symbol placement this is incorrect as a "bike in a house" (a bike in a arrow outline) has been studied and has been found lacking to be included in the next version of AASHTO. Since I am not on the committee that makes such decisions I cannot relay the logic of that decision but I can offer my observations with sharrows which is that I do not think they would improve conditions for cyclists being placed in the center of the road consistently (though I am thinking that 6" to 1' further left might be a good idea.)

    If you were correct, formal logic would be all that is needed to prove that bikes belong on sidewalks and not mixing with faster traffic as that would certainly be found unsafe by some arbitrary logical standard.

    It takes neither a mathematician nor logician, to see that it is through observation and not logic alone that determines if something works or not.

    '[P]erhaps [now] we can keep the discussion centered on sharrows and not cantenkery,'
    I appreciate the flattery implied in your attempt to copy my style, but if you are going to try to emulate me, please do a better job of it.

    I said nothing about the 'bike in a house' version of sharrows. In fact I have posted here the studies that favor chevrons. My sole point was that Bek's assertion that no one can comment on sharrows unless he has personally ridden on streets with sharrows is absurd. The rest of your rephrasing of what I wrote is equally inaccurate. I'll defend what I say, but not what you claim I said.

  5. #55
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterRun View Post
    I like the idea of sharrows. I think the best bicycle facilities would be two or more same direction narrow lanes with sharrows giving the cyclist the entire right lane. Motorists could use that lane in the absence of cyclists, and it would give them another same direction lane in which to pass.

    Sharrows increase cyclist awareness among motorists much more than do bike lanes.
    Bike lanes tend to be placed far enough off to the side from a motorists intended path of travel to be easily disregarded.

    Shares legitimize use of the roadway by bicycles in the eyes of motorists.

    It appears to be fairly easy to incorporate bad or unsafe bike lane placement by incompetent design. This should be much less of a problem with sharrows.

    Sharrows should be placed to give the cyclist the right 1/2-3/4 of the right lane depending on the width of the lane and other factors. This would give the motorist enough room to pass safely by simply changing lanes.

    It has been my experience that a cyclist out in the roadway receives more consideration from motorists. Bike lanes tend to have the opposite effect by inviting closer and higher speed passing.

    Sharrows should be mandated on all roads where cycling is legal. The only exception would be limited access highways. The higher the speed limit and more congested a given road, the more important that it have sharrows to raise motorist awareness and to indicate to motorists that cyclists may be present.
    + 1

    But... but... doesn't riding on roads with sharrows require some kind of minimum cycling competence?

    BTW, watch out for bike lane zealots.

  6. #56
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    Personally I see new road treatment as a way of shaking up the status quo on roads. If cyclists are being harassed or endangered then yes something should be done but I have seen the effect of bicycle accommodations carry over to roads with no bicycle accommodations so I don't think ALL roads are in need of treatments.
    I agree and shouldn't have said 'all roads.' The problem of lack of sharrows presents itself more strongly where sharrows are painted on a particular road, then suddenly disappear despite no change in road; or when sharrows are used in certain types of roads in one location and not used in exactly the same kind of road in a different location.

  7. #57
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommuterRun View Post
    Better than any facility type we have now. If you don't like it, don't ride your bike there.
    that's laughable as are danarnolds speculations about sharrowed streetscapes.


    the day sgoodri started this thread i got honked at in a sharrowed lane and watched a cyclist in the cross direction get a honk in a sharrowed lane - we must not have been riding in an appropriate position in the eyes of the motorists-

    so i advance from personal experience that sharrows do not automatically remove road friction for bicyclists. and considering sharrows in use in narrow high speed lanes (which has never been done BTW) as a serious consideration for bicycling?



    for those that cannot envision any better way to plan for bikes in the transportation mix than 50mph sharrowed narrow lanes, i am sympathetic to the power of limited insight.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by danarnold View Post
    I appreciate the flattery implied in your attempt to copy my style, but if you are going to try to emulate me, please do a better job of it.

    I said nothing about the 'bike in a house' version of sharrows. In fact I have posted here the studies that favor chevrons. My sole point was that Bek's assertion that no one can comment on sharrows unless he has personally ridden on streets with sharrows is absurd. The rest of your rephrasing of what I wrote is equally inaccurate. I'll defend what I say, but not what you claim I said.
    Sure logic with no personal experience is superior to studies that show the right side placement works.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    that's laughable as are danarnolds speculations about sharrowed streetscapes.


    the day sgoodri started this thread i got honked at in a sharrowed lane and watched a cyclist in the cross direction get a honk in a sharrowed lane - we must not have been riding in an appropriate position in the eyes of the motorists-
    So what? Bike lanes are better? I've been honked at while in a bike lane. By the lack of logic you show I guess that must mean bike lanes are no good.

    Only one honker? Out of how many other motorists that passed you that day without incident?
    "Oh, boo-hoo he doesn't like me. He blew his horn at me. Boo-hoo-hoo."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    so i advance from personal experience that sharrows do not automatically remove road friction for bicyclists.
    I didn't see anybody make the assertion that they do. You may not have noticed, but bike lanes don't do that either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    and considering sharrows in use in narrow high speed lanes (which has never been done BTW) as a serious consideration for bicycling?



    for those that cannot envision any better way to plan for bikes in the transportation mix than 50mph sharrowed narrow lanes, i am sympathetic to the power of limited insight.
    So what do you suggest? You want a bicycle that flies? And don't say bike lanes. We already know the defacto purpose of bike lanes is simply to move the cyclist out of the way of motorists.
    Last edited by CommuterRun; 09-20-09 at 02:36 PM.

  10. #60
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    that's laughable as are danarnolds speculations about sharrowed streetscapes.


    the day sgoodri started this thread i got honked at in a sharrowed lane and watched a cyclist in the cross direction get a honk in a sharrowed lane
    Maybe they thought you were girls.

  11. #61
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    yeah, that must be it.

    at least I've ridden many miles sharrowed streetscape in three states and have ample experience with them and aren't simply talking out my ass about sharrowed streetscapes like some posters to this thread.


    to commuterrun? you mean i can't say bikelanes or shoulders are better suited than sharrows as bike transportation facilities for high speed, narrow laned roads on public rights of way?

    why not? The FHWA would be in agreement with my statement, so would AAA, as well as likely any transportation engineer just about anywhere.



    seriously, dude, I feel for your limited vision. don't get around much, eh?
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    Last edited by Bekologist; 09-20-09 at 08:02 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #62
    Conservative Hippie
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    Would you like me to dig up the links to the threads discussing cyclists who were hit and injured or killed while riding in bike lanes?

    Of course the groups you cite would agree with you. They're all about motor vehicles, and heaven knows we can't have motor vehicles having to slow for other vehicles.

  13. #63
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    try to keep your petty complaints in check, commuter run.

    what would that prove in a discussion about sharrows?

    you think bicyclists hit by inattentive motorists somehow discredits the vailidity of lane striping for vehicle flow? or that the highway administration is off base on the basics of road design?

    are there any sharrows in backwater florida yet? what makes you think a sharrow is the 'best' design for accomodating bicycle traffic on narrow laned, high speed arterial roads? what rationale leads you to assume this wild stance on bike transportation?

    the FHWA, AAA, and just about every bonifide traffic engineer would disagree with your assessment about narrow lanes being the 'best' way to accommodate vehicles of wildly differing speed capacities.


    what your complaining about is my stance that sharrows are suitable only for slower speed roads as consideration for bicycle traffic, high speed traffic cooridors require a different approach.

    planners recognize that on slow speed, low volume roads, bikes mixing with traffic is acceptable but on high volume, high speed coorridors, more separation of modes is desired when considering bikes for transportation.

    bikes in high speed narrow lanes is most emphatically NOT A METHOD to encourage bicycling as part of bikeways enhancements in communities.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 09-21-09 at 07:09 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by danarnold View Post

    Then we can all agree that one effective solution is to at least have sharrows and 'bicycle' signs on all roads where cycling is appropriate?
    The converse being that cycling is 'inappropriate' where sharrows and 'bicycle' signs are lacking? That the statute "Every person operating a vehicle propelled by human power or riding a bicycle shall have all of the rights and all of the duties applicable to the driver of any other vehicle" is invalid unless such visual cues are present? No, we can not all agree on that.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    Having experienced tons of harassment and aggressive driving behavior with near zero facilities I have a hard time supporting no facilities. While I have experienced some junk near facilities for the most part having facilities has improved the overall tone of drivers as more cyclists hit the streets.
    Perhaps that's my problem, then. The facilities that have been developed here don't seem to have lured any more cyclists onto the streets, at least where I ride. Perhaps we just haven't applied enough white paint yet to hit the tipping point where hordes of cyclists will suddenly and magically appear and motorist intolerance will vanish into thin air.

  16. #66
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    here's Boise's 50 year bike plan.

    Boisebikeplan


    yeah, think 'incremental but steady growth of bicycling modal share' and not 'hoardes of cyclists suddenly appearing', what a strawman expectation
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #67
    -=Barry=- The Human Car's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High Roller View Post
    Perhaps that's my problem, then. The facilities that have been developed here don't seem to have lured any more cyclists onto the streets, at least where I ride. Perhaps we just haven't applied enough white paint yet to hit the tipping point where hordes of cyclists will suddenly and magically appear and motorist intolerance will vanish into thin air.
    I'm not sure what to say, US Census has your bike modal share at 3.6%, Baltimore is at 0.3%.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human Car View Post
    I'm not sure what to say, US Census has your bike modal share at 3.6%, Baltimore is at 0.3%.
    On my afternoon commute, I typically see hundreds of cars and zero cyclists, so I don't know where on earth these figures come from. The very few bicylists I do see, on the rare occasion when they're not on the sidewalk, are usually travelling contra-flow in a bike lane.

  19. #69
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High Roller View Post
    On my afternoon commute, I typically see hundreds of cars and zero cyclists, so I don't know where on earth these figures come from. The very few bicylists I do see, on the rare occasion when they're not on the sidewalk, are usually travelling contra-flow in a bike lane.
    At least from memory, I've never been to Boise. But the decenial census is all self reported as of the week prior to April 1 2000. It has been a while, but I think that the commuting question is on the Census long form which roughly is a one out of six sample -- it varies by density and other characteristics to get enough sample for some targeted level of geography.

    Alternatively, you might have an estimate from the American Community Survey (at least that is what I think ACS represents) which mimics the decennial census long form but is based on pooling sample over time to give point estimates on smaller levels of geography.

  20. #70
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    My guess is that the figure cited is skewed by Boise State University, with a student population of 19,000. This would put a high concentration of cyclists in about 5% of the city's area. My admitedly anecdotal estimate for the other 95%, including where I commute, would be less than the figure quoted by The Human Car for Baltimore. Yes, statistics can mislead.

  21. #71
    babylon by bike Standalone's Avatar
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    I would love to see these in my area.

    Is there anywhere I can find a comprehensive list of locales that are utilizing this? Thanks.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    try to keep your petty complaints in check, commuter run.
    Excuse me? Who came in whining about how terrible sharrows are? Everything you've tried to use to shoot down sharrows can be applied to your precious bike lanes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    what would that prove in a discussion about sharrows?
    Umm, that by eliminating most of the drawbacks of bike lanes, they are the best way to accommodate cyclists. Or did you miss that part?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    you think bicyclists hit by inattentive motorists somehow discredits the vailidity of lane striping for vehicle flow?
    Well now, so you admit that a little stripe painted on the road doesn't really do what it's supposed to by enhancing cyclist safety?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    bikes in high speed narrow lanes is most emphatically NOT A METHOD to encourage bicycling as part of bikeways enhancements in communities.
    You missed one of the key points (not surprising) that I stated earlier. Multiple same direction narrow lanes. Go back and see the first paragraph in post #51. If you have further trouble understanding it, ket me know.

  23. #73
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    try to keep your petty complaints in check, commuter run.

    what would that prove in a discussion about sharrows?

    you think bicyclists hit by inattentive motorists somehow discredits the vailidity of lane striping for vehicle flow? or that the highway administration is off base on the basics of road design?

    are there any sharrows in backwater florida yet?
    Commuter, you did not see Bekstein's memo, the one that says if you don't live in Seattle you are not allowed to discuss sharrows. Try to pay attention.

  24. #74
    Conservative Hippie
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    Quote Originally Posted by danarnold View Post
    Commuter, you did not see Bekstein's memo, the one that says if you don't live in Seattle you are not allowed to discuss sharrows. Try to pay attention.
    Yeah, he and I have gone around about this before. Except then he tried to deny sharrows were of any use at all.

  25. #75
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by commuterrun
    Who came in whining about how terrible sharrows are?
    I have no idea.


    I actually endorse sharrows on slow speed roads in narrow lanes, centered in the lane, along indentified major bikeway routes where there is neither road width nor compelling reason to stripe a bonifide bikelane.

    sharrows are NOT a serious consideration for bikes mixing with high speed traffic in narrow multiple lanes and there are better roadway designs to facilitate bike traffic along high speed road cooridors than multiple narrow lanes with sharrows in them.



    Sharrows are roadway markings to be used in conjunction with bikelanes as road width and dynamics allow along routes as part of hybrid roadscaping.

    I recognize the validity of their implementation concurrent with bikelanes to emphasize bikes mixing with traffic prior to intersections and other implementations.

    I see sharrows as being able to educate bicyclists to position themselves directionally and envision some as yet created sharrows to guide bikes across multiple lanes of slow moving traffic to position bikes for left turns.

    i most definetly endorse sharrows in many roadscape applications along bikeway routes.


    ...and see the videos.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 09-21-09 at 11:47 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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