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  1. #26
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    boy, Randya.

    when discussing 'best practice' design for bicycling some mention of facilites is inevitable. why call me at fault for discussing a topic at hand?

    Best practices and safer bicycling facilities are actually central to the conversation aren't they?

    you are aware VC is most emphatically NOT 'best practice' design for bicyclists by any metric. look at ridership in other countries, look at cycling rates by the elderly in countries that plan more considerately for bikes as transportation. compare to the USA and Britain.


    griping that facilities are inseparable from discussion of 'best practices' and are part and parcel of 'best practice' design?

    a huge inability to see reality for what it is.

    are you just upset with cycletracks or something?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-09 at 07:45 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #27
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post
    Bek - What I think they are saying is don't be the John Forester of facilities, dude!

    I'll bet we can have a rational discussion with Dan and pacificaslim without all the rhetoric. In fact, I'll bet we all ride more alike than different.



    DISCLAIMER: Nothing here should be taken as legal advice, even if it seems silly enough to have been written by a legislator, and especially not if it appears (by remote chance) to display any evidence of erudition.

  3. #28
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya View Post

    I'll bet we can have a rational discussion with Dan and pacificaslim without all the rhetoric. In fact, I'll bet we all ride more alike than different.


    I bet we do too.

    But bear in mind that "our current riding style" has only resulted in an average cycling modal share of about 2% in most areas of the country. Places that emphasize "better practices for cyclists" have reached a modal share closer to 6%.

    This report: http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs...rpt_500v18.pdf outlines that walking and cycling together have a modal share of about 7%, and they strive to reach over 15%. That report outlines quite a few "better practices for cyclists."

  4. #29
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    you are aware VC is most emphatically NOT 'best practice' design for bicyclists by any metric.
    I guess that depends upon if you mean VC the wacky dogma or vc the practical concept of operating according to the rules of the road...like even you do, Bek.

  5. #30
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randya
    I'll bet we can have a rational discussion with Dan and pacificaslim without all the rhetoric..
    don't be so sure, randya. danarnold's a facts-lite idealogue that considers sprawl inevitable and a desired consequence of the american economic engine despite ample evidence to the contrary.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  6. #31
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    I bet we do too.

    But bear in mind that "our current riding style" has only resulted in an average cycling modal share of about 2% in most areas of the country. Places that emphasize "better practices for cyclists" have reached a modal share closer to 6%.

    This report: http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs...rpt_500v18.pdf outlines that walking and cycling together have a modal share of about 7%, and they strive to reach over 15%. That report outlines quite a few "better practices for cyclists."
    It's very difficult to demonstrate cause and effect here. More bicycling may have caused the emphasis on
    "better practices for cyclists"

    From vol. 18, I-2:

    "Progress has been made on the two NBWS goals. The goal of reducing injuries and fatalities by
    10 percent has been surpassed. The number of bicyclist and pedestrian fatalities decreased
    by 18 percent from 1993 to 2003; bicyclist fatalities dropped by 23.3 percent. The number of
    bicyclists injured in collisions with motor vehicles decreased by 35.3 percent over the same
    time period (Raborn, 2004), but these decreases may reflect a downward trend in overall
    bicycling as much as they indicate safety improvements.
    Since 2003, however, these trends
    have reversed: as of 2005, the decrease in bicyclist fatalities from 1993 had decreased to less
    than 4 percent. So, progress has been made on reducing bicyclist injuries and fatalities,
    but that progress appears now to be eroding.
    The NBWS goal of doubling the percentage of walking and bicycling trips has not been
    accomplished, although the number of trips increased and perhaps doubled. In 1990, there
    were an estimated 1.7 billion bicycling trips; in 2001, that number had almost doubled to
    3.3 billion. Combined walking and bicycling trip numbers increased from 19.7 billion to
    38.6 billion. The percentage of bicycle trips, however, increased a mere one-tenth of a percent
    (from 0.7 percent to 0.8 percent), while combined trips increased from 7.9 percent to 9.5 percent.
    DISCLAIMER: Nothing here should be taken as legal advice, even if it seems silly enough to have been written by a legislator, and especially not if it appears (by remote chance) to display any evidence of erudition.

  7. #32
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
    I guess that depends upon if you mean VC the wacky dogma or vc the practical concept of operating according to the rules of the road...like even you do, Bek.
    right, chip. imagine this - best practice of lawful road bicycling on 'best practice' designed roadways. (how john forester would ride lemon grove ave. in lemon grove CA)

    in communities with cycletracks, sharrowing the street ajacent would negate any dogmatic vehikularist complaints. developing intersection treatments for cycletracks are key to their safe implementation in the USA.

    regardless of how cycletracks catch on in portland, there's going to be a VAST MAJORITY OF STREETS COMPLETELY UNMODIFIED in any way- bikeways networks work in conjunction with the remaining unmodified streets. cycle tracks will never become a majority roadscape design and will likely see limited implementation in America.

    i suspect streets will simply get lanes of traffic completely blocked off from traffic and parking removed in creation of large bikelanes in portland if ridership continues to grow there.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-09 at 08:18 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  8. #33
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    don't be so sure, randya. danarnold's a facts-lite idealogue that considers sprawl inevitable and a desired consequence of the american economic engine despite ample evidence to the contrary.
    Wrong again Bek. I said:

    "Residential sprawl, and I am no fan of it, is a necessary consequence of freedom of choice. Deal with it."

    You post two claims, both of which are patently false, as I just demonstrated. You claim I think sprawl is 'desired' when I said I'm no fan of it. You claim I said it was an inevitable consequence of 'american [sic] economic engine,' when I attributed it to freedom of choice.

    You are correct on one count, it is hard to have a rational discussion with you, if you insist on lying and misstating what people say.

    Bek, what is YOUR plan to get rid of our current urban 'sprawl' without impacting freedom of choice?
    DISCLAIMER: Nothing here should be taken as legal advice, even if it seems silly enough to have been written by a legislator, and especially not if it appears (by remote chance) to display any evidence of erudition.

  9. #34
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    I bet we do too.

    But bear in mind that "our current riding style" has only resulted in an average cycling modal share of about 2% in most areas of the country. Places that emphasize "better practices for cyclists" have reached a modal share closer to 6%.

    This report: http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs...rpt_500v18.pdf outlines that walking and cycling together have a modal share of about 7%, and they strive to reach over 15%. That report outlines quite a few "better practices for cyclists."
    The vast majority of this report addresses what can be done for roadways and facilities...there is much less regarding best practices for cyclists beyond the usual wear a helmet, be visible, be alert and follow the rules of the road (which is the meat of vc, no?).

    • Wear a helmet every time you ride.
    • Ride with, not against, traffic.
    • Don’t ride on sidewalks—drivers don’t expect it.
    • Obey traffic laws and signs, and use proper hand signals.
    • See and be seen—wear brightly colored or reflective clothing; use lights and reflectors.
    • Stay alert—always look and listen for traffic, pedestrians, and other bicyclists.

  10. #35
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    the OP references best practice design of roads, different from best practice of operation.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  11. #36
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danarnold View Post
    vacuous complaint about rhetoric instead of substance......

    Bek, what is YOUR plan to get rid of our current urban 'sprawl' without impacting freedom of choice?


    whatever dude, you consider sprawl and auto centricity 'inevitable' which has been readily proven patently false by citizens' efforts in Portland and other communites (Golden CO as an example) that fight sprawl to increase livability.

    Danarlond, rallying false cries against developing new urbanism and best practices of urban design (still applicable in suburbs!) that encourage livable walkable communities is so last century. Autos first and foremost, sprawl, intolerable commutes, high transportation costs, congested roadways, because americans want it that way? a laughable misread of current urban planning in america, dude.

    go read the quote from the portland bikemaster plan draft- seems citizens there had an effective course of action despite claims of inevitable sprawl..... and exercised their freedom of choice thru the political process to enact it.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-09 at 08:30 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #37
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    the OP references best practice design of roads, different from best practice of operation.
    ahh, my bad, I must have been distracted by the hookers.

  13. #38
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    vacuous complaints...
    Nothing 'vacuous' about them. You made two statements, both obvious lies you got caught in. You avoid admitting it by calling them 'vacuous.' You are hopeless.

    You are so caught up in what you want to preach and what you want to attribute to others that you are reduced to lying about what they say. Pathetic.
    DISCLAIMER: Nothing here should be taken as legal advice, even if it seems silly enough to have been written by a legislator, and especially not if it appears (by remote chance) to display any evidence of erudition.

  14. #39
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    actually, my criticisms of your opinion about community planning and the UN-inevitability of sprawl are quite cogent.

    I've quoted some of Portland's bike master plan 2030 draft as an example of community planning that rejects sprawl in favor of more liveable communities.

    sprawl is not inevitable. usually, better bike ride share is a result!
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  15. #40
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    ahh, my bad, I must have been distracted by the hookers.
    Me too- Well, Randya DID wonder if 'best practices' was vehicular cycling or bikeways planning.

    I think street infrastructure should support vehicular cycling. The reality of any bikeways acommodated city is that the vast majority of streets will remain unenhanced for bicycling. vehicular cycling is expected in portland. planning for lawful road operation of bikes is imperative in american bicycle planning,

    in the case of seperated cycletracks, a community could easily do, as Seattle has done, is place sharrows in the road adjacent to the bike path or cycletrack.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  16. #41
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I think street infrastructure should support vehicular cycling.
    I think we can all agree on that, Bek...the devil is in the details, implementation and unintended consequences (like mandatory use laws).

  17. #42
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    got to stand against mandatory bikelane and sidepath use laws. FRAP is applicable to all vehicles regardless of specificity of traffic code.

    the devil IS in the details.

    In a citiy with 5 percent enhanced bikeway'd roads (still allowing operation in accordance with the rules of the road), the remaining 95 percent of the roads remain unenhanced. communities have expectations of lawful, vehicular cycling on all the roads and notably, the vast majority of unenhanced streets.

    just a relevant aside...


    but to address concerns about a few hundred yards of cycletrack spelling the demise of roadway cycling in Portland, I say, REALLY?

    municipalities can easily place sharrows adjacent to a cycletrack or bike path. Perhaps this should be part of MUTCD but i can see problems implementing this. Yet federal design guidelines are pretty clear that roads should be designed to acommodate bicyclists.

    in the case of urban cycletracks sharrows in road adjacent make the most sense IMO.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-09 at 08:55 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    you are aware VC is most emphatically NOT 'best practice' design for bicyclists by any metric. look at ridership in other countries, look at cycling rates by the elderly in countries that plan more considerately for bikes as transportation. compare to the USA and Britain.
    Why not look at cycling rates in countries that don't plan at all for bikes (in the ways you want to) and still have ridership rates much, much higher than the USA and Britain? My other home, Japan, for example. If you looked at that, you may see that ridership rates are symptoms of how a city is organized overall and what its population is like, independent of any bike infrastructure.

    In Portland and San Francisco it's a combination of decent public transportation (and car-share programs), mixed-use neighborhoods, and a large percentage of "hipsters" living in those cities who are riding bikes because it's "cool" (and would therefore do so whether it makes sense as the best form of transportation or not). It is not bike lane infrastructure that is driving high ridership in places like that, or any college town for that matter. San Francisco has been prohibited from doing any bike infrastructure for many years and still ridership has increased: because of the trend.

    Spend the money and effort on public transportation and people will ride bikes. Otherwise, it simply doesn't make sense for most people, in most cities, to choose a bike over a car. The choice to give them is train over car and then they'll use the bike and walking to fill in the gaps between home and subway/train station.
    Last edited by pacificaslim; 10-12-09 at 09:22 AM.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    seriously, dude. whats your problem? woodthrushes? got anything about BICYCLING??? wait, i see. you're concerned about how to keep the bikelane clean. wow. they make machines that do that. i suspect portlands bikelanes get swept by bike tires pretty well anyway.
    I work in municipal public works and was bringing up a practical issue about bike lane placement between parked cars and the curb: existing street sweepers used in most cities will not fit in that small of a lane to remove the trash and leaves that will tend to fill in that area. You will need to ban the cars part of the day (practical in downtown areas, but may be difficult to get applied in residential streets).

    you think it's recreational riders and the hipsters? fueling the ridership in portland, san francisco and seattle?
    Of course I believe that. I've lived in both Portland and San Francisco and its clear that those cities attract people who are different from mainstream america and move to (or choose to stay) in those cities because the city matches their worldview. These people are already more likely to be fit, be outdoorsy, be intellectual, and therefore more likely to ride a bike around regardless of what lines you paint on the ground, then people in a place like, say, Fresno. Surely, you can't seriously argue with me about this. Take a look around! Ask yourself: do you see more bikes in hipster neighborhoods or in the "hood" or "blue collar" neighborhoods?

    As for recreational: those types of bikes and those types of riders still far surpass any sort of "transportation" commuting type bike sale and ridership in San Francisco and I suspect the NW as well. Don't kid yourself about that.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    the OP references best practice design of roads, different from best practice of operation.
    You believe, and you argue, Bek, that the design of highways is separated from the design of the way they are used? Not very consistent are you, Bek, because you consistently argue for specific designs that are designed for a specific way to be used. Or, rather, the other way around. You argue for a specific way of cycling that determines the designs of the highways.

  21. #46
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    no john, i separate operating behavior from design of the environment. Riding versus the road i ride on.

    like this, john. you have a degree in english:

    I ride my bike on roads.

    but in discussions of both riding style and road design i endorse lawful road bicycling johnny!


    pacificslim, must be hard to ride a bike on the bus

    just kidding.

    they make smaller street sweepers, likely less expensive. in use around here and everwhere.

    if you lived in San Francisco, you know how effective the city is at ticketing for street sweeping, eh? and that was just for the cars, imagine the revenue added from ticketing for regular bikelane maintenence!

    Tokyo, where more riders bicycle daily than the entire USA, but mostly on the sidewalks and ample crosswalks in a culture more respectful of others and larger penalties for traffic infractions. sure.

    bike facilities that encompass the entirety of current best practice american road design accommodates bicyclists wanting to use public roads for transportation. why do you have a problem with that?

    pacificaslim you think american ingenuity can't figure out how to sweep some cycletracks? John Forester, you're a bicycle transportation engineer maybe you can design some smaller streetsweepers to address pacificaslims' facility maintence concerns
    Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-09 at 09:51 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    bike facilities that encompass the entirety of current best practice american road design accommodates bicyclists wanting to use public roads for transportation. why do you have a problem with that?
    i don't have a problem with it if we could afford everything. but i'd rather have my tax dollars spent first on a decent public transportation system so i could get rid of my car and live like i did in tokyo. once that is completed, sure, paint as many lines on the road and build as many bike paths as you'd like.

    p.s. i know the make smaller sweepers - our city has one, for downtown sidewalks. i was speaking more from a fiscal standpoint: when asking cities to put the bike lanes between sidewalk and parking instead, realize there is more expense involved in that than just paint on the ground. they'll have to totally redo the way they clean the streets.

  23. #48
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    so, design cities like san francisco or dallas?

    i think the upkeep of a few hundred yards of cycle track can get addressed rather easily in a progressive city like portland.

    why do you think a bike master plan and enhancements to transportation networks with relatively minor road restriping represents a huge cost to communities? the costs are so small and such a slight fraction to the cost of the rest of the public works associated with transportation infrastructure.


    Investments in bicycling infrastructure actually reap fiscal benefits to communities as the green quotient of bicycling compares to the social costs of motoring and automobile infrastructure...... seems theres a net-net to design of roads to facilitate bike traffic. however it's done, paint is cheap and planning for bikes is less expensive over a wide variety of community, livability, environmental, maintainence and governmental/ operational concerns.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 10-12-09 at 10:04 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    actually, my criticisms of your opinion about community planning and the UN-inevitability of sprawl are quite cogent.

    I've quoted some of Portland's bike master plan 2030 draft as an example of community planning that rejects sprawl in favor of more liveable communities.

    sprawl is not inevitable. usually, better bike ride share is a result!
    It is one thing to write a plan that "rejects sprawl". It is another matter entirely to view the actual events that occur after writing such a hope into a plan. The plan to be adopted in 2010 is an update of the plan adopted in 1996, and, I presume, there is a sequence of plans before that. It is wise to consider the effects of these earlier plans, to see which parts of them have come to pass, and what unplanned events have occurred.

    It has been stated many times in these discussions that the basic urban pattern has an enormous effect on the utility, and therefore the use, of both bicycle transportation and motor transportation. The proposed 2010 plan indeed refers to this effect and indicates a desire to remodel Portland to be more medieval, less useful for motoring and more useful for bicycling and walking. Bek obviously supports this plan.

    The past effects of past plans with similar goals need to be considered when predicting the effect of the 2010 plan. Those who consider urban patterns have two different views about the success of the past Portland plans. Those who consider the purely local, and largely environmental, effects seem to consider Portland a success. Those who consider the larger effects seem to consider Portland a city that has planned its way into decay. Indeed, one calls Portland a failed city. In my opinion, there is some evidence for the former view, and a lot stronger evidence for the latter view.

    Therefore, even Bek's argument that bikeways produce transportationally significant increases in bicycle transportation is not supported by the Portland draft 2010 bicycle plan. Such increases will occur only with significant assistance from anti-motoring programs.

    Therefore, if we are to consider the best practices for cyclists, we need to consider them in relation to the real world, not in relation to some idealized world that exists in only two types of places, in medieval cities and in the minds of anti-motoring planners. This means cycling in accordance with the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles and designing the road to best accommodate that method.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    no john, i separate operating behavior from design of the environment. Riding versus the road i ride on.

    like this, john. you have a degree in english:

    I ride my bike on roads.

    but in discussions of both riding style and road design i endorse lawful road bicycling johnny!

    Then, Bek, why do you advocate highway designs that are based on cyclist-inferiority cycling on bikeways?

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