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Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.

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Old 11-06-09, 01:50 PM   #76
John Forester
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Do motorists follow the legal definitions and rules of the facilities about which you write? If they did, there would be far fewer conflicts between motorists and cyclists.
<redacted by moderator>. Motorists don't obey the legal definitions of facilities; those are supposed to be obeyed by the facility designers.

Last edited by Allen; 11-06-09 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 11-06-09, 01:56 PM   #77
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let's try to stay on point, shall we?

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Originally Posted by the impact of transportation infrastructure on bicycling safety
Evidence is beginning to accumulate that purpose-built bicycle-specific facilities reduce crashes and injuries among cyclists, providing the basis for initial transportation engineering guidelines for cyclist safety.
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Old 11-06-09, 02:06 PM   #78
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Don't be such a blatant liar. Me, creating American club cycling? That group had to exist for me to observe it.
You're being pointlessly abusive and immature. You said

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Club cyclists in the years of Kaplan's study were largely vehicular cyclists, based on my hundreds of hours of experience with them
I know several people who prefer, for instance, Robert Hurst's more pragmatic approach and who insist that sometimes behaving in a non vehicular manner is bloody useful in city traffic - eg positioning aggressively at lights, executing manoeuvres like the messengers hook. So genec was correct to ask

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How are vehicular cyclists created today... in your reply above you essentially created the control group and then determined that they were correct by your metrics alone
And, unless you are very stupid indeed, you know that he meant something like "JF defined the group of vehicular cyclists at whim and by prejudice and simply identified their success with his methods". Not that you invented club cycling!

Last edited by meanwhile; 11-06-09 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 11-06-09, 02:10 PM   #79
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Don't be such a blatant liar. Me, creating American club cycling? That group had to exist for me to observe it.

Yes, there is no present program for creating vehicular cyclists, because people with the absurd beliefs in popular, and hence cyclist-inferiority, cycling on bikeways, opposed it and hijacked it, with the assistance, of course, of the motoring establishment that designed the system.
Sorry, I misread it based on this statement: "Club cyclists in the years of Kaplan's study were largely vehicular cyclists, based on my hundreds of hours of experience with them, and many discussions among them."

I had and have no intention of being a "blatant liar." But certainly your harsh responses are indeed legendarily unfriendly.

**********************

So getting back on message, apparently no new vehicular cyclists are being created, according to your standards?
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Old 11-06-09, 02:36 PM   #80
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You're being pointlessly abusive and immature. You said



I know several people who prefer, for instance, Robert Hurst's more pragmatic approach and who insist that sometimes behaving in a non vehicular manner is bloody useful in city traffic - eg positioning aggressively at lights, executing manoeuvres like the messengers hook. So genec was correct to ask



And, unless you are very stupid indeed, you know that he meant something like "JF defined the group of vehicular cyclists at whim and by prejudice and simply identified their success with his methods". Not that you invented club cycling!
The group you are discussing existed without me putting them into a classification, and they obeyed the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. That is not something that I could create by whim. Whether that group did so is a matter of fact.
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Old 11-06-09, 02:39 PM   #81
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Ease up on the name calling guys.
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Old 11-06-09, 02:40 PM   #82
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You're being pointlessly abusive and immature. You said



I know several people who prefer, for instance, Robert Hurst's more pragmatic approach and who insist that sometimes behaving in a non vehicular manner is bloody useful in city traffic - eg positioning aggressively at lights, executing manoeuvres like the messengers hook. So genec was correct to ask



And, unless you are very stupid indeed, you know that he meant something like "JF defined the group of vehicular cyclists at whim and by prejudice and simply identified their success with his methods". Not that you invented club cycling!
The fact that some cyclists prefer Hurst's messenger style cycling is just as immaterial as the fact that most people prefer cyclist-inferiority style cycling. Bicycle messengers are known to have a high crash rate, but whether that is a high crash rate per mile is unknown. However, the messenger style of cycling is quite properly opposed as a dangerous nuisance by the general public who have been exposed to it. That is sufficient for me to disapprove of it.
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Old 11-06-09, 03:17 PM   #83
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Me, creating American club cycling? That group had to exist for me to observe it.
And what does Forester's biased observation of a group of club cyclists he selected have to do with their unmeasured, unrecorded safety record, or the safety record of the cyclists cited in the Kaplan study, or ANY of the cycling groups cited in the meta analysis that Forester uses to makes his WAG claims about the fantastic safety record of vehicular cyclists?

A Big Fat Goose Egg of Zero!
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Old 11-06-09, 03:25 PM   #84
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Bicycle messengers are known to have a high crash rate, but whether that is a high crash rate per mile is unknown. However, the messenger style of cycling is quite properly opposed as a dangerous nuisance by the general public who have been exposed to it. That is sufficient for me to disapprove of it.
"High Crash Rate"?

"high crash rate per mile"?

What the heck is that meaningless term supposed to mean in relation to safety or cycling risk?

The use of the term "crash rate" as an indicator of cycling risk is the mark of a Safety Charlatan.

BTW, who the heck cares if John Forester disapproves any style of cycling?
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Old 11-06-09, 11:32 PM   #85
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As I said, Bicycle Transportation was first published in 1977, and is available in many libraries.
It is NOT available in the San Diego Public Library. "Effective Cycling" is available, but "Bicycle Transportation" is not.

Your book is not even available in the largest public library system near your current home town. Is it any wonder that so few people are aware of your great works?

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Results 1-5 of 5 available (with 2 duplicates) for "author contains John and Forester" (7 total)
Publisher: MIT Press,
Pub date: 1993.
Pages: xxv, 599 p. :
ISBN: 0262061597
Item info: 8 copies available at Central Library, Balboa, College-Rolando, Mira Mesa, North Park, Otay Mesa-Nestor, Tierrasanta, and Valencia Park/Malcolm X.
796.6/FORESTER
Your book "Bicycle Transportation" is also not available in any San Diego County Library. Meaning it is not even available in your home town of Lemon Grove. You might want to consider donating a book to at least your home town library if you really expect anyone to read and become aware of your studies.

There is ONE used edition available on Amazon.com. It costs $300.

http://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Transp...7571641&sr=8-1

John, do you really want people, even cyclists, to know this information?

Is it any wonder that so many cyclists prefer "inferior cycling" in bike lanes?

It is cheaper to get a driver's license than to learn "Bicycle Transportation."
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Old 11-07-09, 07:32 PM   #86
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woh cares? there's a much more relevant studies and directions being charted about bicycling transportation, gene.

for our sake, leave john forester's wild conjectures about 'bicycle transportation engineering' in the dustbins of failed theories and forgotten history.

THIS thread showcases a great compilation of bicycle traffic safety studies. Why air someone else's dirty, fossilized laundry and soil everything with it?

Last edited by Bekologist; 11-07-09 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 11-07-09, 07:39 PM   #87
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I am coming to believe that if the goal is to discredit a particular point of view one could do much worse than engaging John Forester as an advocate for it.
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