Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

View Poll Results: Do you think Complete Streets would fit into the vc philosophy, or vice versa?

Voters
13. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    11 84.62%
  • No

    2 15.38%
Results 1 to 6 of 6
  1. #1
    Banned.
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sioux City, Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vision R40 Recumbent
    Posts
    825
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Can Complete Streets fit in with vc philosophy?

    I have one simple rule for this thread. I am respectfully asking John Forester to NOT respond or reply to anything in this thread. I am asking he have the decency to stay out of it. I am also respectfully asking John not even vote in the poll.

    Could either one be adapted to fit into the other? How about Adaptive Cycling? Could AC fit in with Complete Streets?

    My question is simple, but your answer may not be. Select yes or no and if you wish post what or why you think so. Here is the link to Complete Streets: http://www.completestreets.org/ Please review the info on the site before answering.

    For the record I think it could fit in with either AC or vc with modifications and adaptations. The modifications would have to be made to either AC or vc to make it work.

  2. #2
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas Church of Hopeful Uncertainty
    My Bikes
    1966 Raleigh DL-1 Tourist, 1973 Schwinn Varsity, 1983 Raleigh Marathon, 1994 Nishiki Sport XRS
    Posts
    13,988
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I see AC and VC as techniques and Complete Streets and other infrastructure as tools. You can use various tools to accomplish various techniques. And... not every tool or technique is right for every rider. When I first started riding in February 2008 after a hiatus of about 20 years, I was an infrastructure junkie; I was afraid to be in the same lane with a car, even if the lane was wide. I went through a phase of practicing more and more VC technique, but recently I've backed away from that a bit. Instead, I try to just adapt the best technique for the particular situation, taking into account both traffic and infrastructure.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  3. #3
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If engineers and planners interpret a Complete Street as requiring consideration for people driving bicycles according to the principles of drivers of vehicles, then that would be a good thing. Smooth/safe pavement, extra width for safe passing on faster/busier roads, lower speed merge/diverge designs, signals that detect bicycles, "completion" of dead end residential streets into through streets to provide pleasant connections with desirable destinations, and other engineering considerations are important for bicycle drivers.

    If engineers and planners come to believe that a street is not Complete without markings or paths to segregate bicycles from other vehicular traffic according to vehicle type, then this will create problems for cyclists. A quick scan of the Complete Streets materials did not reveal mention of wide outside lanes or normal width lanes as being adequate or preferred under many situations (such as low speed local neighborhood streets or downtowns with lots of intersections).

    There is a lot in the Complete Streets movement that is good for the public, particularly for pedestrians. However, some of it seems to be ignorant of how very well vehicular cycling works for both novice and advanced cyclists on the vast majority of the streets we already have, which we do not desire to have changed.
    Last edited by sggoodri; 11-17-09 at 07:34 AM.

  4. #4
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    it is ever more clear 'vehikular cyklists' are a movement of ideologues opposed to bike specific pavement markings.

    everyone needs to stay cognizant that 'complete streets' encompasses a wide variety of road and highway enhancements for both bike and pedestrian travel. as there are many types of roadway, there are as many types of complete street treatments.

    Complete streets can be designed to allow 'vehicular' travel by bicycles, vehicular cyclists can ride on bike infrastructure vehicularily, bike infrastructure can be designed in complaince with 'vehicular' rules of traffic flow.

    It is entirely possible and part of the core design philosophy of complete streets across communities to complete a street that still allows 'vehicular' bicycling. Indeed, the complete streets philosophy recognizes many neighborhood streets need little to no enhancement, and expect bike travel on the central portion of the roadway.

    vc is an ideology, adaptive cycling is the technique, and a vc can use ac to ride vehicularily down a complete street.

    One political aspect needed to maintain the ideologues' obsessive need to play in traffic is: no mandatory sidepath law and no mandatory bikelane law.

    If cycletrack architecture is used For infrastructure on a complete street, the main portion of the roadway should still be emphasized for bicycle traffic unless bikes are prohibited due to minimum speed restrictions.

    here's an example of a complete street treatment of a type that emphasized a cooridor with an MUP for pedestrian and bicycle traffic - our city placed sharrows on the main roadway to emphasize bikes continued right to the travel lane.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-17-09 at 10:02 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  5. #5
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,725
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sure, complete streets, low speed limits, traffic calming will work perfectly with the vc philosophy. No bike lanes needed. Just well designed slow streets that invite pedestrians and cyclists to mix and mingle with other traffic comfortably.

    Making streets resemble freeways however does not work... slower traffic is pushed to the sides and faster traffic tends to believe they own the road. High speed wide radius turns and merges invite high speeds. High speeds also limit communication between slower and faster traffic. Speed differentials make vc cycling more difficult.

    Narrow lanes with sidewalks and even pop out parking areas lined with trees or other vegetation tend to slow traffic, coupled with small radius traffic circles, these areas become quite walkable and fully integrated vehicular cyclable.

    Go one step further and use a Monderman treatment and remove lines and signs, and traffic becomes self regulating and more aware of the surrounding environment.

    All this also tends to boost the economy of local storefronts and restaurants as patrons can see and easily stop to visit these businesses.

  6. #6
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    complete streets treatments of arterial roadways usually includes bikelane treatments that are designed concurrent with the vehicular rules of the road.

    no harm, no foul to vc idealogues from bikelanes on high speed arterials with thoughtful intersection treatments.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •