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  1. #26
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUX Vision R40 View Post
    Riding in the left tire track is legal?
    Yes.
    What is Texa's FRAP law? is it practicable or possible?
    It's practicable, but there's more to it.

    In particular, if the outside lane is less than 14' wide -- you can ride anywhere you want in it. And most lanes are less than 14' wide, and the lane he was riding on was less than 14' wide.

    He also wasn't convicted of violating this law. His court cases have generally been about impeding traffic (basically not going fast enough) and the latest was reckless driving.

    I do not think a cyclist should remain in the left tire track or side of the lane when there is no obstruction to prevent from riding on the right side.
    OK, but the fact of the matter is that there's no law in Texas that makes this illegal under the circumstances that Bates was in. "Reckless driving" certainly wasn't a good fit, but the judge went for it anyways.

    It is one thing to assert your rights to the roadway, but if you're militant about it as chipseal is, even if you are doing so within the limit of the law it can still result in bad consequences.
    That is always true. Rosa Parks wasn't the first person to stand up for black rights -- many had tried before her and gotten beaten, incarcerated, whatever. She was just one of the ones that succeeded and paved the way for future changes.

  2. #27
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    but it is a probable one. no competent vehicular cyclist will ride uncompromisingly in the left tire track of a 70mph, multiple lane road with 8 foot shoulders for miles and miles and miles. dogmatically addled at the least, my suspicions of the dubious nature of reed bates 'advocacy fight' has merit.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    Yes.
    It's practicable, but there's more to it.

    In particular, if the outside lane is less than 14' wide -- you can ride anywhere you want in it. And most lanes are less than 14' wide, and the lane he was riding on was less than 14' wide.

    He also wasn't convicted of violating this law. His court cases have generally been about impeding traffic (basically not going fast enough) and the latest was reckless driving.

    OK, but the fact of the matter is that there's no law in Texas that makes this illegal under the circumstances that Bates was in. "Reckless driving" certainly wasn't a good fit, but the judge went for it anyways.

    That is always true. Rosa Parks wasn't the first person to stand up for black rights -- many had tried before her and gotten beaten, incarcerated, whatever. She was just one of the ones that succeeded and paved the way for future changes.
    Rosa Parks was not militant about it. but she was not passive either, I think she was somewhere in between. Besides when she rode in the front of the bus, wasn't there a law on the books against it, unfair or otherwise? If there was she was technically violating a law or ordinance, therefore she could have been charged and arrested. Don't get me wrong I agree with what Rosa Parks did and am all for Civil Rights for all of mankind.

    What chipseal is doing is not in violation of the law per your information about where he is allowed to ride on the roadway, unless I am misunderstanding something. I get that riding in the left lane is not illegal. But does this only apply to 14' lanes, or any lane regardless of width, on any roadway?

    Even if Rosa Parks was not violating any law comparing these 2 is comparing apples and oranges. A lot has changed since then. First of all the right to travel is a guaranteed civil right. But that DOES NOT give you cart blanch to do what ever you want when you travel, like violate the traffic laws.

  4. #29
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    reed bates was convicted of reckless driving in spite of bicyclists ostensibly being allowed to operate in any lane position of roads with lanes less than 14 feet wide. Cyclists frap law is NOT the only law applicable to bicyclists in Texas. reed bates was convicted of a different offense.

    and no offense, suxvision40, but you need a bit better grasp of the fundamentals. yes rosa parks 'could have' been arrested. my goodness. and get a grasp of chipseals unabashedly arrogant riding behavior over at his blog, particularly the 2009 entries.

    the man is an embarrassment to cycling.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  5. #30
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUX Vision R40 View Post
    Rosa Parks was not militant about it. but she was not passive either, I think she was somewhere in between.
    She was pretty militant about it.

    Besides when she rode in the front of the bus, wasn't there a law on the books against it, unfair or otherwise?
    She wasn't in the front of the bus, and she wasn't violating the word of the law, though one could easily argue that she was violating the spirit of it. Read the details yourself --

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Pa...ry_Bus_Boycott

    What chipseal is doing is not in violation of the law per your information about where he is allowed to ride on the roadway, unless I am misunderstanding something. I get that riding in the left lane is not illegal.
    He wasn't in the left lane -- Bek's issue seems to be about the left wheel track of the right lane, though from what I hear, according to the police video, he wasn't even in the left side of the lane when arrested, but Bekologist seems to have put him on trial for some earlier blog posts of his where Chipseal says that where people should ride.

    But does this only apply to 14' lanes, or any lane regardless of width, on any roadway?
    Does what apply?

    In Texas, you're generally supposed to take the rightmost lane that goes where you want to go unless you're keeping up with traffic. The shoulder is not considered to be part of the roadway, but you can ride there if you wish. If the outside lane is less than 14' wide (and most are), you can ride in any part of that lane you want, though Bekologist does have strong feelings on where you shouldn't be. There is more to the law, read it here but that's the gist of it as far as FRAP goes.

    But that DOES NOT give you cart blanch to do what ever you want when you travel, like violate the traffic laws.
    And reading the laws suggests that Chipseal wasn't violating them. ("Reckless Driving" is a judgment call, however. But if what he was doing was reckless, then that suggests that any time we take the lane on a high speed highway it's reckless.)

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    ("Reckless Driving" is a judgment call, however. But if what he was doing was reckless, then that suggests that any time we take the lane on a high speed highway it's reckless.)
    Since it appears that the cop didn't have any problem with chipseal being in the lane where there was no shoulder, this "suggestion" appears to be false. Put another way, just because something is "reckless" in one case, doesn't mean it is always so.

  7. #32
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Since it appears that the cop didn't have any problem with chipseal being in the lane where there was no shoulder, this "suggestion" appears to be false. Put another way, just because something is "reckless" in one case, doesn't mean it is always so.
    Of course, having a shoulder available for use does not make riding in the lane any more (or less) dangerous, and even the judge explicitly said that riding in the lane may be safer than riding in the shoulder, so if the judge acknowledges that Chipseal may have been riding in the safest way possible ... I don't see how this ruling can suggest anything other than "riding on this road, wherever you do it, it may be reckless driving".

  8. #33
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    doug, et al. you can 'debate' the 'merits' of reed bates reckless driving conviction for his default left tire track riding style on 70mph multiple lane roads with shoulders all you want, i stand by my criticism of reed bates riding style, and am convinced of his dubious intent.

    no competent vehicular cyclist will ride uncompromisingly in the left tire track of a 70mph, multiple lane road with 8 foot shoulders for miles and miles and miles. reed bates is an embarrassment to bicyclists.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  9. #34
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    Wink

    Reed was not riding as Bekologist described, either according to the sworn testimony, the assertions of the prosecutor, or the video shown at trial. The posted maximum speed limit where he was cited for reckless driving was 65mph rather than "70mph."

    Perhaps Bek has observed Reed riding irresponsibly around Seattle, but he wasn't on trial for any offenses committed anywhere near the Green Lake bike path.

  10. #35
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    65, 70 miles is a minor quibble. motorists usually travel five over, calling a 65mph road one on which traffic travels 70mph is no stretch.

    what is not acceptable, or legal in texas ..... uncompromisingly taking the lane of high speed roads with calculated disregard for other road users that rises to the level of reckless operation of a vehicle.

    bluffery about chip and his supposedly sensible riding is rendered moot when one reads his blog posts from 2009.

    reed bates has repeatedly reiterated his dogmatical uncompromising rudeing style in the left tire track.

    quoting reed from just last year..... " as I normally position myself,in the left tire track, this vehicle cannot overtake me lawfully, and it could be argued, he would break the law if he passes me going the other way!"

    chipseal even thought his riding so far left would invalidate vulnerable user bills intent in his state.

    can everyone else say "out to lunch at the dogmatic popsicle stand?"

    Reed Bates was riding in the left tire track, Reed Bates has reiterated and restated and affirmed in the public blogosphere his proclivity to default in the left tire track.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 09-21-10 at 12:02 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  11. #36
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    "out to lunch at the dogmatic popsicle stand?"
    This assumes you are selling popsicles ...

    Long story short, Bates was not in the left tire track when arrested. That rhetoric is a simply red herring unless you think he should be arrested for what he wrote.

    If you fully support the judgement then you are supporting a LEO's ability to arrest a cyclist for "reckless cycling" when taking the lane -- after first being arrested for "riding on the roadway" -- despite a lack of evidence that it is any riskier than say, riding a motorcycle. Unless you believe that the recklessness would be incurred by the driver approaching from the rear that has the legal obligation to avoid slow moving vehicles in the road.

  12. #37
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    This assumes you are selling popsicles ...

    Long story short, Bates was not in the left tire track when arrested. That rhetoric is a simply red herring unless you think he should be arrested for what he wrote.

    If you fully support the judgement then you are supporting a LEO's ability to arrest a cyclist for "reckless cycling" when taking the lane -- after first being arrested for "riding on the roadway" -- despite a lack of evidence that it is any riskier than say, riding a motorcycle. Unless you believe that the recklessness would be incurred by the driver approaching from the rear that has the legal obligation to avoid slow moving vehicles in the road.
    Actually you are only supporting a LEO being able to say "if you do what I just told you not to do, I will arrest you." That was really what Bates was hauled in for... contempt in the face of the law.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Actually you are only supporting a LEO being able to say "if you do what I just told you not to do, I will arrest you." That was really what Bates was hauled in for... contempt in the face of the law.
    Once had an officer basically tell me just that. He had pulled me over when I was riding home from work on a fairly busy two-lane road which only has a very intermittent shoulder. He claimed that I should ride on that shoulder even though I pointed out that 1) most of it was unpaved, 2) it disappeared completely every 100' or so and would force me to repeatedly weave in and out of traffic, and 3) state law has no requirement for cyclists to use the shoulder. After some discussion he finally agreed that I had not been breaking any provisions of the vehicle code but he then said he was ordering me to stay off the roadway and would otherwise arrest me for disobeying an order of an on-duty police officer.

    I was tempted to reply with some comment about 'arbitrary and capricious' but realized that as soon as he got in his patrol car he was going to hightail it out of there and I'd be free to continue my ride home. Which is exactly what happened - he sped off and was out of sight by the time I rode 50' or so on the shoulder and I then resumed riding on the roadway.

  14. #39
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    Once had an officer basically tell me just that. He had pulled me over when I was riding home from work on a fairly busy two-lane road which only has a very intermittent shoulder. He claimed that I should ride on that shoulder even though I pointed out that 1) most of it was unpaved, 2) it disappeared completely every 100' or so and would force me to repeatedly weave in and out of traffic, and 3) state law has no requirement for cyclists to use the shoulder. After some discussion he finally agreed that I had not been breaking any provisions of the vehicle code but he then said he was ordering me to stay off the roadway and would otherwise arrest me for disobeying an order of an on-duty police officer.

    I was tempted to reply with some comment about 'arbitrary and capricious' but realized that as soon as he got in his patrol car he was going to hightail it out of there and I'd be free to continue my ride home. Which is exactly what happened - he sped off and was out of sight by the time I rode 50' or so on the shoulder and I then resumed riding on the roadway.
    Which is what Reed Bates should have done... but he didn't... he flaunted the officer's "order" right in front of the officer... changing a practical issue to a political issue.

    If he wants to be Rosa Parks, then so be it... but do it right.

  15. #40
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Actually you are only supporting a LEO being able to say "if you do what I just told you not to do, I will arrest you." That was really what Bates was hauled in for... contempt in the face of the law.
    Contempt of Cop.

    That may be why he was arrested, but he was convicted of reckless driving. That sets a bad example -- it basically says that taking the lane on some roads is reckless driving -- to this one judge, anyways.

  16. #41
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    well, there's a way to safely share the road as an intelligent, considerate vehicular cyclist, and then there's the reed bates method.

    debate what you guys think reed was doing all you want.

    i am confident that on the day of reed bates arrest he was riding in his normal, default road position. in the left tire track.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #42
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmc View Post
    Contempt of Cop.

    That may be why he was arrested, but he was convicted of reckless driving. That sets a bad example -- it basically says that taking the lane on some roads is reckless driving -- to this one judge, anyways.
    Exactly.

    "This one judge" can be taught his lesson if a proper appeal is filed. But it has to be proper with someone knowledgeable in law able to dual with the likes of the stilted mentality of this "small town" judge.

  18. #43
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Actually you are only supporting a LEO being able to say "if you do what I just told you not to do, I will arrest you." That was really what Bates was hauled in for... contempt in the face of the law.
    Oh no ... it goes much further than that since Bek supports the reckless argument.

    Now ignoring a cop instead of diddying with a tube or something of the sort until the LEO drove away is something that a host of us would advise against.

  19. #44
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    invisiblehand: i'm not the only one who thinks reed bates SOP of riding rises to the level of reckless!

    the message from both the League of American Bicyclists and the largest advocacy group in Texas: both did not support Reed.

    This should be instructive to those convinced that one simple phrase in one solitary law ostensibly gives riders the right to operate with premeditated reckless disregard for the rights of other road users.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #45
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post


    invisiblehand: i'm not the only one who thinks reed bates SOP of riding rises to the level of reckless!

    the message from both the League of American Bicyclists and the largest advocacy group in Texas: both did not support Reed.
    Failure to support his case does not automatically mean one thinks his riding is reckless. Sorry, but logical fail.

    Perhaps they do think it's reckless -- but you can't tell that just because they did not support him.

  21. #46
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    reed bates was convicted of reckless driving. I never said the league thought his operation was reckless. the state of texas has found reed to be a reckless driver.

    Logical fail (juv.) on your part, dougmc, but you're right, perhaps the wording is a bit awkward. nonetheless.

    the largest bicyclist advocacy organization in the nation failing to support reed bates as well as his home states main advocacy organization should be instructive to those that think bicyclists uncompromisingly hanging out in the left tire track of the outside lane on a 65mph multiple lane, divided state highway for tens of miles is sound operating practice.

    -should be instructive to those convinced that one simple phrase in one solitary law ostensibly gives riders the right to operate with premeditated reckless disregard for the rights of other road users.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 09-23-10 at 11:09 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #47
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    i'm not the only one who thinks reed bates SOP of riding rises to the level of reckless!
    Congratulations for rubbing elbows with Ellis County prosecuters and law enforcement officers!

    If you believe Andy Clarke, LAB offered assistance but was refused.

  23. #48
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    ...Andy Clarke states at the League of American Bicyclists site that the non-support from the LAB for reed bates legal strategy should be instructive.

    i advance that this should be instructive to those that think bicyclists uncompromisingly hanging out in the left tire track of the outside lane on a 65mph multiple lane, divided state highway for tens of miles is sound operating practice.

    the Leagues' failure to back this as a riding or legal strategy should be instructive to those convinced that one simple exception in one solitary law ostensibly gives riders the right to operate with premeditated reckless disregard for the rights of other road users.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  24. #49
    Senior Member earth2pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    The LAB was asked to respond to the issue and delivered this comment:

    Our offer to assist was not accepted; instead, he and his advisers chose to assert that not only was Bates legally allowed to ride where he was riding, but thatís where he and everyone else should be riding, even in the presence of a perfectly rideable shoulder. That approach took the issue beyond a strict legal argument as to where one is legally allowed to ride to where one should ride, and a rural Texas courtroom may not be the best place to have that call made on our behalf.
    my experience with the legal system is that no matter how justified you feel in your position, that doesn't guarantee success. when you go to court, your mama, wife, brother, sister and friends all give you their support, but that doesn't count in the end.

  25. #50
    Senior Member earth2pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    ...Andy Clarke states at the League of American Bicyclists site that the non-support from the LAB for reed bates legal strategy should be instructive.

    i advance that this should be instructive to those that think bicyclists uncompromisingly hanging out in the left tire track of the outside lane on a 65mph multiple lane, divided state highway for tens of miles is sound operating practice.

    the Leagues' failure to back this as a riding or legal strategy should be instructive to those convinced that one simple exception in one solitary law ostensibly gives riders the right to operate with premeditated reckless disregard for the rights of other road users.
    i didn't see that. i thought he was obeying the 'far right as practicable' rule. could you please show me where it reads he was 'in the left tire track?' if he was, he was being reckless, unless he had a good reason, like merging left.

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