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  1. #1
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    Is this what vc followers really want?

    This has already been posted in the regular A&S forum, but thought it warranted being posted here because of how vc'rs feel about traffic calming.

    I think everyone can agree that vc and those that stritcly ride vc can agree the vc philospohy is against traffic calming like speed bumps/humps, and other similar traffic calming devices. I have seen the reason for such traffic calming accused of being put in place to make it hard for vc'rs to ride on the roadway, even though the reason the traffic calming device was not specifically directed at cyclists. vc folks somehow make the connection that it is.

    Well vc'rs it seems someone has taken your cause to the next level and killed someone over advocating for and actually having put in place a traffic calming device, a speed hump. Even though this speed hump was not put in place to make things harder for cyclists, even though some of you will no doubt think that, the guy who had it put in place because of people violating the speed limit on his street has been killed over it by someone who hates the fact it was put there.

    Even though this is not directly related to the vc cause, is this what you really want? Do you consider this to be a futherance of your cause? Do you view people like Stephen A. Carr an enemy to vc and people like David A. Patton a hero? All he was trying to do was make his neighborhood safer and someone killed him for it.

    Slaying in Fairfax followed earlier confrontation about speed hump, police say

  2. #2
    Ironwoman Velo Gator's Avatar
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    Was someone a cyclist in this story or did I miss it?

  3. #3
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    i think more fundamental of an issue is the disenfranchisement of the public along roads distinctly tenuous for bicycling by the vast majority of bicyclists or potential bicyclists.

    i think the dogmatic VC are like the Robert Moses of the advocacy community. Segregation and disenfranchisement thru enforced motoring.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    i think more fundamental of an issue is the disenfranchisement of the public along roads distinctly tenuous for bicycling by the vast majority of bicyclists or potential bicyclists.

    i think the dogmatic VC are like the Robert Moses of the advocacy community. Segregation and disenfranchisement thru enforced motoring.
    Interesting you mention Robert Moses. I read the info. about him. I wonder if, before motor vehicles were widely used, if he was at odds with what the LAB formerly was, the League of American Wheelmen, or LAW.

  5. #5
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    would suspect so, but the league was in limbo thru much of the time of moses reign.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    would suspect so, but the league was in limbo thru much of the time of moses reign.
    True, it seems they most of their early work was from about the 1890's to the 1930's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUX Vision R40 View Post
    True, it seems they most of their early work was from about the 1890's to the 1930's.
    This refers to the League of American Wheelmen. Its peak membership year was 1898. By 1912, half of the century run participants were motorists. By 1919 the Leage was no more than a filing cabinet in somebody's basement or attic. There was some resurgence in the Great Depression, when cheap recreation became respectable, and then death again about 1950. Then revival in 1963, as I remember.

  8. #8
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    How is this post in any way related to VC? Why even post and suggest that VC advocates want road rage and violence?

    There appears to be no purpose in this except to inflame rhetoric in an already over rhetoriced discussion.


    And for the record I am not a strict VC person in any way, I am RC (reality cyclist).....I use bike lanes, mups on occaison, ride on the street, take the lane sometimes, stay to the right some times, stop for lights and essentially ride in a manner that is safe, courteous, assertive when needed and defensive when needed (reality is cars are bigger than me) I support infrastructure (bike lanse seem to be the biggest bang for the buck) but do not think infrastructure is nirvana and have no expectation that there is enough support to build as much as some would wish. I think bottom line is that cyclists need to know how to ride comfortable in traffic.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    This refers to the League of American Wheelmen. Its peak membership year was 1898. By 1912, half of the century run participants were motorists. By 1919 the Leage was no more than a filing cabinet in somebody's basement or attic. There was some resurgence in the Great Depression, when cheap recreation became respectable, and then death again about 1950. Then revival in 1963, as I remember.
    By century run, do you mean those who were around at the turn of the last century, from 1899 to 1900? When was it you ran for election to Executive Director of the LAB? I was a member then and voted against you. For those that do not know the League of American Biccylists, or LAB used to be the LAW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUX Vision R40 View Post
    By century run, do you mean those who were around at the turn of the last century, from 1899 to 1900? When was it you ran for election to Executive Director of the LAB? I was a member then and voted against you. For those that do not know the League of American Biccylists, or LAB used to be the LAW.
    A century run, or century ride, is a ride of at least one hundred miles to be completed in one day.

    I never attempted, by any means, to become Executive Director of the LAB. I was always against the League having such an official, because of the perverse incentives that are built into such an office. The accuracy of my opinion has been thoroughly demonstrated over the years.

  11. #11
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    i believe the vc need to stop being follow sheep and start moving towards a 21st century understanding of road and highway designs that facilitate competent community bicycling.

    as the vc can ride in bikelanes and on the shoulders of roads in a vehicular manner, there is no fundamental conflict between vc riding and design of roadway infrastructure that benefits bicycle traffic. even sidepaths can be used to great advantage by even the most virulent vehicular cyclist. i've seen it.

    case in point: there was a local vc ideologue who used to stalewartly deny all bikeways planning in seattle. the mayor was designating our new bike master plan a few years ago along a major urban trail facility, guess who rides up on the trail despite there being a perfectly good road 50 feet adjacent? the vc ideologue. what a hypocrite. i got a huge laugh out of that, but of course already recognized the validity of trail networks as part of a unified bikeway network for all riders, even the dogmatic vc.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 09-14-10 at 10:52 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    A century run, or century ride, is a ride of at least one hundred miles to be completed in one day.

    I never attempted, by any means, to become Executive Director of the LAB. I was always against the League having such an official, because of the perverse incentives that are built into such an office. The accuracy of my opinion has been thoroughly demonstrated over the years.
    I know the term century ride. But had never heard or seen the term century run. Until now has anyone else seen the term century run? So you're saying by 1912 half of those that were completeing century bike rides also drove cars? So what? How is that differant from today, other than more than half of century bike ride aprticipants own and drive cars?

    If you were not running for election to Executive Director, what position were you running for office for in the LAB. I clearly remember the league magazine issue with yours and the others running for election having pictures, bios and why the candidates were running and what changes the candidates wanted to make to improve cycling in the U.S, etc. I remember thinking your ideas were so and too radical no way was I going to vote for you. So if not director what was the title you were running for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    i believe the vc need to stop being follow sheep and start moving towards a 21st century understanding of road and highway designs that facilitate competent community bicycling.

    as the vc can ride in bikelanes and on the shoulders of roads in a vehicular manner, there is no fundamental conflict between vc riding and design of roadway infrastructure that benefits bicycle traffic. even sidepaths can be used to great advantage by even the most virulent vehicular cyclist. i've seen it.

    case in point: there was a local vc ideologue who used to stalewartly deny all bikeways planning in seattle. the mayor was designating our new bike master plan a few years ago along a major urban trail facility, guess who rides up on the trail despite there being a perfectly good road 50 feet adjacent? the vc ideologue. what a hypocrite. i got a huge laugh out of that, but of course already recognized the validity of trail networks as part of a unified bikeway network for all riders, even the dogmatic vc.
    What was the name of the vc person who did this? Was it a person in the city govt.?

  14. #14
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    oh, his name was david somebody, he was one of the local LCIs. hardly important - who listens to cranks after they've been exposed as a fraud?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  15. #15
    Senior Member ianbrettcooper's Avatar
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    As a fella who considers himself allied more to the VC cause, I'll bite...

    Quote Originally Posted by SUX Vision R40 View Post
    I think everyone can agree that vc and those that stritcly ride vc can agree the vc philospohy is against traffic calming like speed bumps/humps, and other similar traffic calming devices.
    With you so far.

    I have seen the reason for such traffic calming accused of being put in place to make it hard for vc'rs to ride on the roadway, even though the reason the traffic calming device was not specifically directed at cyclists. vc folks somehow make the connection that it is.
    There's a big difference between seeing one or two VCers being paranoid about traffic calming measures and assuming that ALL VCers think traffic calming measures are part of an evil anti-VC conspiracy.

    Well vc'rs it seems someone has taken your cause to the next level and killed someone over advocating for and actually having put in place a traffic calming device, a speed hump.

    ...is this what you really want?
    So you're making the case that, because 1 - a nutter kills someone over a speed bump, and because 2 - some VCers don't like speed bumps, the logical progression from that is that 3 - all VCers will advocate the murder of speed bump advocates.

    Erm... no.

    I think this thread is interesting, as it shows how very low some VC haters are willing to stoop. Equating VCers and nutcase murderers - nice. Are you proud of yourself?

    VC is a philosophy of riding a bike assertively, aimed at making cycling safer. As such, is it really warranted to paint its devotees as condoning murder? I really don't think so. I don't think opponents of VC can get any deeper into the gutter than this. What's next - VCers are Hitler?

    Look, disagree with VC all you want. But don't do this. This is stupid. It makes you look stupid. Are you stupid? No. So stop acting like you are.
    Last edited by ianbrettcooper; 09-15-10 at 09:16 PM.
    1997 Jamis Aragon (converted to touring bike), two white 1974 Gazelle-built Raleigh Grands Prix, two red 1973 Gazelle-built Raleigh Grands Prix.

    All I need is a bike and a road, and to be left with the same freedom any other road user has to decide what's the safest lane position.

  16. #16
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Hard to see how traffic calming measures in a neighborhood and the murder of a neighborhood advocate by an enraged neighbor has anything to do with bicycling.

    traffic calming in residential neighborhoods is good. america should adopt the TEMPO30 zone standard.

    has anyone read this short essay by Peter Norton, professor of engineering, history and technology at the university of virginia? "How the streets were made safe for cars" in it he explains the etymology behind the term 'jaywalker'


    how the streets were made safe for cars

    Quote Originally Posted by peter norton, U of VA
    "A hundred years ago of course roads were not for cars, because cars were rare, and to make roads places where cars could go, they had to be redefined.

    It helps us understand what the street was like to city people then, if we think of what a city park is like to us today. It’s a place where we think of everybody as welcome, provided they don’t get in the way of others, don’t make a nuisance out of themselves, and don’t endanger other people. And it was in the nature of cars to be nuisances and dangerous, and so the early response was to blame the car and to restrict the car.

    This started to change partly because people, who had an interest in selling cars and in a good future for cars, saw that this would really limit their future, this attitude would limit their future and that they would have to change it. And to do it, they had to do a number of things at the same time: one is to try to teach children to stay out of the streets. They could not rely on parents to do this because parents at that time thought of the street, at least residential streets, as proper playgrounds for children.


    So auto dealers and auto clubs did things like promote the construction of playgrounds, they got involved in school safety education where they taught children to look both ways before they crossed; they started sponsoring school safety patrols where the children would guide each other as they crossed the street, and most importantly, would teach children that the street is a place for cars and not for children

    They also had to get adults to concede the street to motorists as well, and reaching them was harder, and they did it in a number of ways, but I think the most effective and most interesting was a campaign to redefine walking in the street as an inappropriate thing to do, an inappropriate use of the street.

    And one way they did this was to invent a new term of ridicule, and direct that against pedestrians walking in streets. They used a mid-Western American term ‘Jay’ which was an insult; it meant that you were uneducated and rural, and they connected it with ‘walker’ and invented the term ‘Jay walker’ and it was used as a term of ridicule against pedestrians."
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #17
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    Traffic calming is a hardware solution to a software problem.
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  18. #18
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    A bit late to the party, I guess. Spend most of my time in C and V. Here in México, speed bumps work marvels at taming traffic. After a short time behind the wheel, you get a prickly feeling at the back of your neck as you shift into third. "Something isn't right here". Maybe you can slam on the brakes in time, and if not, you will get better at as time passes. I consider myself very pro vc, simply because that is all I've ever had access to. I enjoy riding in city traffic, here in México. Probably wouldn't feel the same way in Chicago. Traffic taming devices work and work well. The software problem that is the US is unrepairable. Hardware is the only thing that will work. It might take a few years, but the software fix will take generations.

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