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  1. #26
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    benj-

    I'm sorry, but if you can't distinguish between states that have BIKES FRAP laws and states that have SMV FRAP laws applicable to bicyclists, i think taking a look at what the topic is about, maybe rereading the original post might help you firm up the rudiments of the discussion.

    practicable in law means 'what a reasonable person could put into practice.' it doesn't mean 'take the lane if its unsafe to share'

    there is some implied safe road positioning away from the edge under any frap requirement, but it is only implied. in california and new york and florida and washington and many other states with BIKES FRAP laws this is explicit in the wording of the law.

    bicyclists in states with just SMV FRAP laws are required to frap far more frequently and in much more restrictive ways than how some of the 'bicycle drivers' choose to mischaracterize those SMV FRAP laws.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    bicyclists in states with just SMV FRAP laws are required to frap far more frequently and in much more restrictive ways than how some of the 'bicycle drivers' choose to mischaracterize those SMV FRAP laws.
    That's what you say, but that's not what the comparison of NY and Iowa is telling me. You are the one who doesn't want to limit the discussion to what the laws themselves say but what the authorities like the DOT or DMV in each state say. The authorities in Iowa are much more bicycle-friendly than in my home state of NY.

  3. #28
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    NYDOT gives limited instruction to bicyclists to keep right in New York state in its dissemination of traffic laws of your state. keep in mind cyclists are subject to mandatory shoulder use in NY, a condition bikes are not subject to in Iowa.

    (by no means do i think New York State represents an enlightened legal climate for bicyclists. look to Colorado and its BIKE FRAP law for a most agreeable law regulating bicycle traffic.)

    New York "You should generally bicycle as far to the right as is practicable. If there is a safe shoulder, use it instead of the traffic lane. Smart cyclists plot a line straight down the roadway 3-4 feet from the curb or parked cars. This allows them space to avoid road hazards and to be more visible to motorists and pedestrians."

    the DOT of Iowa and its instructions to bicyclists to stay right on all roads is clear in their instructions to bicyclists.

    DMV manuals educating drivers that bikes are on the road do not provide a compelling interpretation of traffic laws. its nice that they describe safe road operation around bicyclists, that is not where bicycle regulation resides.

    Here's the summary: in states with just SMV FRAP laws, bicyclists must still operate FRAP. These requirements are mandatory on all roads of any lane stripe and independent of the width of the lane.

    These duties are whitewashed by the bicycle drivers with their dishonest portrayals of 'bikes allowed full use of lane" candyland fantasies about cyclists road rights far removed from reality in states with applicable SMV FRAP laws.

    and benj, you do misunderstand the topic if you think Iowa has a BIKES FRAP law. it does not.

    Bike traffic in Iowa is governed by a much more restrictive SMV FRAP law.

    Cyclists should not fight our road rights in states with BIKES FRAP laws to be suborned to a far more restrictive SMV FRAP condition. Avoid cycling advocacy that makes unsubstantiated, untenable claims about SMV FRAP laws and their operating requirements for bicyclists.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-21-11 at 11:51 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    NYDOT gives limited instruction to bicyclists to keep right in New York state in its dissemination of traffic laws of your state. keep in mind cyclists are subject to mandatory shoulder use in NY, a condition bikes are not subject to in Iowa.
    I do not agree that bicyclists in NY are subject to mandatory shoulder use. Even below, you quote it as being limited to 'safe shoulders.'

    Quote Originally Posted by NY Vehicle and Traffic Law Article 34 Section 1234
    1234. Riding on roadways, shoulders, bicycle or in-line skate lanes
    and bicycle or in-line skate paths. (a) Upon all roadways, any bicycle
    or in-line skate shall be driven either on a usable bicycle or in-line
    skate lane or, if a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane has not been
    provided, near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway or upon a
    usable right-hand shoulder in such a manner as to prevent undue
    interference with the flow of traffic except when preparing for a left
    turn or when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions that would make it
    unsafe to continue along near the right-hand curb or edge. Conditions to
    be taken into consideration include, but are not limited to, fixed or
    moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, in-line skates, pedestrians,
    animals, surface hazards or traffic lanes too narrow for a bicycle or
    person on in-line skates and a vehicle to travel safely side-by-side
    within the lane.
    Bike lane use is mandatory ('shall') where usable bike lanes are provided. Shoulders are only listed as another legal option.

    (by no means do i think New York State represents an enlightened legal climate for bicyclists. look to Colorado and its BIKE FRAP law for a most agreeable law regulating bicycle traffic.)
    Then, as a NY state resident, I think the difference between SMV-FRAP and bicycle specific FRAP is not particularly important. Iowa bicyclists have a more favorable environment with SMV-FRAP than NY bicyclists with bicycle specific FRAP.

    Googling...wow, that Colorado law is very nice.

    Is there anyone who would prefer a particular state's SMV law to the bicycle-specific Colorado law? I would prefer the Colorado law to any other law I've seen so far. (Which, admittedly, is few.)

    the DOT of Iowa and its instructions to bicyclists to stay right on all roads is clear in their instructions to bicyclists.
    Only as far right as practicable. Not as far right as possible.
    Iowa DOT Rules of the Road for Cyclists
    RIDE ON THE RIGHT AND WITH TRAFFIC Bicyclists
    must ride with the flow of traffic on the right side of
    the roadway, except: when overtaking and passing
    another vehicle; when preparing for a lefft turn; when
    avoiding parked vehicles, drain grates, or debris; or
    when avoiding any other road conditions that may
    affect the operation of bicycles. Bicyclists may also
    ride on the shoulder or a designated bike lane. Bicyclists
    operating on a roadway at less than the normal
    speed of traffic shall ride as close to the right curb or
    edge of the roadway as is safe and practical.

    DMV manuals educating drivers that bikes are on the road do not provide a compelling interpretation of traffic laws. its nice that they describe safe road operation around bicyclists, that is not where bicycle regulation resides.
    DOT interpretations that a few policy wonks read are important but DMV manuals that most licensed drivers have read are not important? Seriously?

    Here's the summary: in states with just SMV FRAP laws, bicyclists must still operate FRAP. These requirements are mandatory on all roads of any lane stripe and independent of the width of the lane.
    Where a bicyclist is not sharing a lane that is too narrow to share side by side, do you believe the bicyclist is as far right as practicable?

    and benj, you do misunderstand the topic if you think Iowa has a BIKES FRAP law. it does not.
    I know it doesn't. I am not illiterate.

    Bike traffic in Iowa is governed by a much more restrictive SMV FRAP law.
    I do not see how it is any more restrictive. If ticketed for not sharing a lane too narrow to be shared safely, I think my chances of beating the ticket would be no worse in Iowa than in NY. I think my chances of receiving the ticket in the first place are higher in NY than in Iowa.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    NYDOT gives limited instruction to bicyclists to keep right in New York state in its dissemination of traffic laws of your state. keep in mind cyclists are subject to mandatory shoulder use in NY, a condition bikes are not subject to in Iowa.

    (by no means do i think New York State represents an enlightened legal climate for bicyclists. look to Colorado and its BIKE FRAP law for a most agreeable law regulating bicycle traffic.)

    New York "You should generally bicycle as far to the right as is practicable. If there is a safe shoulder, use it instead of the traffic lane. Smart cyclists plot a line straight down the roadway 3-4 feet from the curb or parked cars. This allows them space to avoid road hazards and to be more visible to motorists and pedestrians."

    the DOT of Iowa and its instructions to bicyclists to stay right on all roads is clear in their instructions to bicyclists.

    DMV manuals educating drivers that bikes are on the road do not provide a compelling interpretation of traffic laws. its nice that they describe safe road operation around bicyclists, that is not where bicycle regulation resides.

    Here's the summary: in states with just SMV FRAP laws, bicyclists must still operate FRAP. These requirements are mandatory on all roads of any lane stripe and independent of the width of the lane.

    These duties are whitewashed by the bicycle drivers with their dishonest portrayals of 'bikes allowed full use of lane" candyland fantasies about cyclists road rights far removed from reality in states with applicable SMV FRAP laws.

    and benj, you do misunderstand the topic if you think Iowa has a BIKES FRAP law. it does not.

    Bike traffic in Iowa is governed by a much more restrictive SMV FRAP law.

    Cyclists should not fight our road rights in states with BIKES FRAP laws to be suborned to a far more restrictive SMV FRAP condition. Avoid cycling advocacy that makes unsubstantiated, untenable claims about SMV FRAP laws and their operating requirements for bicyclists.
    Here is the NY statute for slow-moving vehicles:

    New York Vehicle Code Section 1120 ...
    (b) In addition, upon all roadways, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

    As you can see, this is a rather standard wording. All of Bek's argumentative claims over the past few days rest, although he has not had the courage to admit it, on his claim that this wording, if applied to cyclists on a two-way road, would prohibit cyclists from using the right-hand lane in the normal manner.

    There has been no change in Bek's advocacy. He is adamant that cyclists should be subservient to motorists by riding FRAP and using bikeways, thereby advocating the positions of the motoring establishment.

  6. #31
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    Arkansas is one of of the handful of states that has no specific FRAP law for bikes or other slow-moving vehicles. Instead, state law (Arkansas Code of 1987, Annotated, or "A.C.A." Sect. 27-49-111 simply says that cyclists (and others) have all the rights and other responsibilities that apply to a driver of a vehicle, with the obvious exceptions of where a separate law for bikes applies (e.g., lighting standards) or the law applies only to motor vehicles (e.g., impeding traffic, DUI provisions, etc.).

    The Arkansas code simply specifies the where there is a roadway, you drive on the right half thereof, unless a sign specifically tells you to do otherwise.


    27-51-301. Vehicles to be driven on right side of roadway - Exceptions.
    (a) Upon all roadways of sufficient width, a vehicle shall be driven upon the right half of the roadway, except as follows:
    (1) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction under the rules governing that movement;
    (2) When the right half of a roadway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair;
    (3) Upon a roadway divided into three (3) marked lanes for traffic under the rules applicable thereon; or
    (4) Upon a roadway designated and signposted for one-way traffic.

    (b) Motor vehicles shall not be operated continuously in the left lane of a multilane roadway whenever it impedes the flow of other traffic.

    27-51-302. Driving on roadways laned for traffic.
    Whenever any roadway has been divided into two (2) or more clearly marked lanes for traffic, the following rules in addition to all others consistent with this subchapter shall apply:

    (1) A vehicle shall be driven as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane and shall not be moved from the lane until the driver has first ascertained that movement can be made with safety;

    (2) Official signs may be erected directing slower-moving traffic to use a designated lane or allocating specified lanes to traffic moving in the same direction, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every such sign.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Here is the NY statute for slow-moving vehicles:

    New York Vehicle Code Section 1120 ...
    (b) In addition, upon all roadways, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
    I would prefer 1120 to 1234, but I would prefer the Colorado statute to both.

  8. #33
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pscyclepath View Post
    Arkansas is one of of the handful of states that has no specific FRAP law for bikes or other slow-moving vehicles.
    Correction: Arkansas is the ONLY state without a SMV-FRAP law. all 49 other states echo some form of UVC requirements and there is a fair degree of uniformity between the states, except Arkansas, that slow moving vehicles share roads by operating to the right, as far to the right as practicable.

    more than two thirds of the states have more permissive allowances for bicyclists than states with SMV FRAP laws.

    I wonder how many cyclists get ticketed in Arkansas? Heck, i wonder how much bicycling is even going on in Arkansas? Doesn't ever really ring any bells as a bicycle friendly state, does it? Second lowest in the country in bike to work share, a paltry .13% of Arkansasans bike to work.

    real cyclists paradise there, ya shure ya betchya.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-22-11 at 07:20 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  9. #34
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
    I would prefer 1120 to 1234, but I would prefer the Colorado statute to both.
    so you prefer the more restrictive law, with less allowances for bicyclists to travel away from the road edge. interesting.

    The Colorado BIKES FRAP law truly is a model law for bicycling that should be emulated nationwide.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-21-11 at 09:41 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    so you prefer the more restrictive law, with less allowances for bicyclists to travel away from the road edge. interesting.
    It's not more restrictive. It gives as the first and most preferred lane position 'the right lane then available for traffic.' 1234's first and most preferred position is the bike lane. In order to justify my position on the road on 95% of the roads I ride on I have to go to the exceptions which are not very easy to read. It also is already implying I'm not riding where I'm supposed to be riding - a bike lane. Look at the CVC 21202 case in A&S - the road clearly met the exceptions and yet the judge found him guilty of violating CVC 21202. How is the bicycle FRAP law helping him? It isn't.

    The Colorado BIKES FRAP law truly is a model law for bicycling that should be emulated nationwide.
    I like that one too.
    Last edited by benjdm; 06-22-11 at 05:31 AM. Reason: tags

  11. #36
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, benj, but uniform statutory construction and interpretation of SMV FRAP laws in states that regulate bikes as SMV all predicate bicyclists travel in the 'as far right as practicable' position, not the 'right hand lane' position.

    I do agree New York has some of the worst bike laws. if you ever get appraised of the history of bicycle rights in your state, i think you would find them fascinating.

    someone has fed you a line, and that line leads with deceit. sorry you got caught up and believe the fraudulent claims that statutory construction that contains 'right hand lane OR' gives a bicyclist a choice to avoid the duty to FRAP on laned roads.


    Sorry, but those claims are glaringly incorrect.

    Your assertion that a New York rider would be free to choose any lane position on a laned roadway is incorrect and unsupportable.

    SMV FRAP laws as worded are far more restrictive on cyclists than cyclists specific FRAP laws.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-22-11 at 06:55 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I'm sorry, benj, but uniform statutory construction and interpretation of SMV FRAP laws in states that regulate bikes as SMV all predicate bicyclists travel in the 'as far right as practicable' position, not the 'right hand lane' position.
    I don't care about all that. The person reading the statute, whether it's a judge or a cop or a driver or a bicyclist, is going to read it with the first option being the most preferred. That's how it gets read in bike-FRAP cases and why cyclists have such a poor track record in avoiding getting ticketed or getting out of tickets after being ticketed. It's basic reading comprehension. The NY law makes it sound like cyclists should only rarely be in the lane. The NY driver's manual makes it sound like cyclists should only rarely be in the lane. The NY sharing the road pamphlet makes it sound like cyclists should only rarely be in the lane until the last page. In reality, I have not found a single bike lane in my town (the first listed road position.) The second position listed is near the right-hand edge of the roadway or curb. Only the very last exception is for narrow lanes - and all the lanes in my town are narrow. Every single one. That's a hard sell - the last (and presumably least often occurring) exception is the most common? I'm supposed to successfully convince a driver or police officer that the people who wrote the laws meant for me to operate away from the right edge of the road on every single road in my town based on that law?


    I do agree New York has some of the worst bike laws.
    Then you can understand my lack of appreciation for the bicycle-FRAP law in NY. Even with it, NY is still one of the worst.

    someone has fed you a line, and that line leads with deceit.
    Oh, please. I've read the statutes and your and Forester's arguments. I don't believe there is deceit - I think everyone in these threads is arguing sincerely.

    sorry you got caught up and believe the fraudulent claims that statutory construction that contains 'right hand lane OR' gives a bicyclist a choice to avoid the duty to FRAP on laned roads.
    You continue to not listen to me. I think bicyclists DO have the requirement to operate FRAP on laned roads. I think when I'm cycling in a lane that is too narrow for a bike and car to share side by side (like this one or this one or this one), operating in the right tire track or near the center of the lane is operating FRAP. (You dodged my question earlier on that: Where a bicyclist is not sharing a lane that is too narrow to share side by side, do you believe the bicyclist is as far right as practicable?)

    Your assertion that a New York rider would be free to choose any lane position on a laned roadway is incorrect and unsupportable.
    *blinks* Where did I assert that?
    Last edited by benjdm; 06-22-11 at 07:38 AM. Reason: added link

  13. #38
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    benj- the implications of your argument and how far is practicable aside, you're presenting some contradictions.

    you're telling the forum that new york smv law would allow a bicyclist to a 'first and preferred position'(?) and be governed by 'the right hand lane' wording.

    In states with this wording, that is not the case.

    Contradicting now, you also state you think bicyclists DO have a requirement to FRAP in states with SMV FRAP laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm
    I think bicyclists DO have the requirement to operate FRAP on laned roads.
    What are you saying again? it appears you agree with the original post, that cyclists in states with SMV FRAP laws do require cyclists to FRAP on laned roads, and not the way some of the 'bicycle drivers' suggest.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I wonder how many cyclists get ticketed in Arkansas? Heck, i wonder how much bicycling is even going on in Arkansas? Doesn't ever really ring any bells as a bicycle friendly state, does it? Second lowest in the country in bike to work share, a paltry .13% of Arkansasans bike to work.

    real cyclists paradise there, ya shure ya betchya.
    It's a lot better than it looks from the League report. We do have a significant handicap in the state highways department, fondly known as the "Department of Cars & Trucks" in that they managed to spend the least of any state out of the allocated federal TE and stimulus funding last year... only $53,000 out of $12.6 million awarded. Enforcement on a statewide basis is a joke, while we have had a 3-foot passing law here for four years now, it's never been advertised in a state-sponsored forum, and it's never been enforced. Most advocacy work is being done at the community level as we continue to beat our heads against the asphalt walls of the Highway Department and local cops.

  15. #40
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    that's comprehensive ACS survey data from the department of commerce, not a 'league report.' Your state is second to last in the percentage of people that bike to work.

    your states climate for bicycling sounds pretty lousy by most accounts including your own.


    Arkansas also lacks uniformity between all other states with its lack of a smv-frap law. That is NOT an enlightened position regarding traffic management.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-22-11 at 08:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    benj- the implications of your argument and how far is practicable aside, you're presenting some contradictions.

    you're telling the forum that new york smv law would allow a bicyclist to a 'first and preferred position'(?) and be governed by 'the right hand lane' wording.
    The statute says 'any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven' - where? The first position listed is the right hand lane then available for traffic. Being listed first makes it the one people will latch onto as where they expect to find slow moving vehicles. It's also what the law is suggesting is the preferred place for them to be. That's how people read.

    If you're telling someone how to do something - cut down a tree, for example - the instructions will cover the general case first and cover rarer exceptions afterward. The NY bicycle specific FRAP laws are telling readers that the general case is for bicycles to be way over to the right. That's why people still get ticketed and convicted of violating bicycle FRAP laws even when they are following them.

    In states with this wording, that is not the case.
    You say this, yet the Iowa driver's manuals and pamphlets clearly teach drivers to expect cyclists in the lane more often than the NY driver's manuals do.

    Contradicting now, you also state you think bicyclists DO have a requirement to FRAP in states with SMV FRAP laws.
    I do. Annoying other road-users is not my goal. I move right wherever it is safe to do so when someone wants to pass me. For the third time:

    I think when I'm cycling in a lane that is too narrow for a bike and car to share side by side, operating in the right tire track or near the center of the lane is operating FRAP. (You dodged my question twice now: Where a bicyclist is not sharing a lane that is too narrow to share side by side, do you believe the bicyclist is as far right as practicable? Examples are in my previous post.)

    What are you saying again? it appears you agree with the original post, that cyclists in states with SMV FRAP laws do require cyclists to FRAP on laned roads, and not the way some of the 'bicycle drivers' suggest.
    I am saying that I would find NY 1120 preferable to NY 1234 and the Colorado bike law preferable to both. I think I would experience more reasonable expectations from drivers and police officers and DMV manuals under NY 1120, and more reasonable still under the Colorado law.

    John Forester, or anyone else who cares to answer, how would you rank the NY 1120 vs. NY 1234 vs. Colorado bicycle specific FRAP law in order of preference?

  17. #42
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    benjdm,

    all the arguing is not going to change the irrefutable nature of SMV FRAP laws requiring, like you suggest, that bicyclists do indeed, have to ride as far to the right as practicable on laned roads in states with SMV FRAP laws applicable to bicyclists.

    the smv-frap laws are not as some of the bicycle drivers suggest. SMV FRAP laws require bicyclists - and you agree with this statement, benjd! to operate FRAP on laned roads.

    Personal preferences and opinions and skew about how we feel about traffic laws do not comprise the actual operating duties of those laws.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 06-22-11 at 08:46 AM.
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    I take back my previous answer in post 37. People who are arguing sincerely do not refuse to answer a straightforward question 3 times. You have persuaded me both that there is deceit in this discussion and who it is coming from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    benjdm,

    all the arguing is not going to change the irrefutable nature of SMV FRAP laws requiring, like you suggest, that bicyclists do indeed, have to ride as far to the right as practicable on laned roads in states with SMV FRAP laws applicable to bicyclists.

    the smv-frap laws are not as some of the bicycle drivers suggest. SMV FRAP laws require bicyclists - and you agree with this statement, benjd! to operate FRAP on laned roads.

    Personal preferences and opinions and skew about how we feel about traffic laws do not comprise the actual operating duties of those laws.
    It is all very well for Bek to decry personal preferences and skew about traffic laws, but it is obvious that the greatest extent of personal preferences and skew is that which Bek uses to argue what the duties are. What Bek decries as personal preference and skew is no more than holding that two-lane roads have a right-hand lane, and that the word 'or' offers a choice between lawful actions. Not much personal preference and skew involved in that understanding. But Bek claims that it is not personal preference or skew that is involved in his claim that two-lane roads do not have right-hand lanes and that 'or' does not offer a choice between lawful actions. Which view has the greater expression of personal preference and skew?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    It is all very well for Bek to decry personal preferences and skew about traffic laws, but it is obvious that the greatest extent of personal preferences and skew is that which Bek uses to argue what the duties are.
    John, could you please tell me which law you would prefer to apply to you when operating a bicycle: NY 1120, NY 1234, or the Colorado bicycle specific FRAP law?

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    Quote Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
    I thought that the argument was that a generic slow moving vehicle law had to apply to all vehicles and could not specifically target bicycles. Consequently, discriminatory laws/rulings had to apply to all slow moving vehicles increasing the political base making such laws and rulings less likely.
    ?

    Slow moving motorized vehicles aren't common enough to increase any sort of "political base".

    I'd guess that there are many more bicyclists than slow moving motor vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
    I compare that to NY state, where the DOT is pretty bicycle friendly and there is a bicycle-specific FRAP law, and the driver's manual gives no hint that a cyclist would ever take the lane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chapter 11 Sharing the Road

    Bicyclists and in-line skaters must:

    Ride in a bicycle lane, if a usable one is available. Where there is none, the bicyclist must ride near the right curb or edge of the road, or on a usable right shoulder of the road, to avoid undue interference with other traffic. The rule of staying to the right does not apply when a bicyclist or in-line skater is preparing for a left turn or must move left to avoid hazards.
    This looks like a "hint" to me.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    This looks like a "hint" to me.
    You're right - I exaggerated. It gives no hint that a cyclist would take the lane for an extended period of time, because the hazard is that the road is too narrow to share.

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    Some random comments/opinions.

    * I don't think there's a fundamental flaw in FRAP laws.

    * Most of the confusion about the actual text of such laws is associated with the word "practicable" (WA use "as is safe" instead).

    * Whether provided by custom or the law, FRAP for bicycles is necessary to be able to accommodate cars and bicycles on the same roads "fairly". This is exactly analogous to laws regarding other kinds of slow moving vehicles.

    * Bicycles are a subclass of "slow moving vehicle". They have a rather distinct property of being very narrow. That property means that general slow moving vehicle laws (such as the "pull out" laws) might be unreasonably restrictive (and unnecessary) for bicyclists.

    * Many motorists do not think that bicycles belong on the road or even have a legal right to be there. I don't see how the presence or absence of any particular law or laws would change that.

    * The difficulty that a motorist might have with cyclists is mostly due to inexperience with dealing with them and because they don't have the same behavior (as perceived or actual) as cars. Cars behave in rather consistent ways and motorists get lots of practice and reinforcement dealing with other cars.

    * While I don't see FRAP laws as inherently a problem, there does need to be wider understanding that bicyclists are allowed to use the full lane (with the typical limitation that they do so when FRAP isn't practicable).

    * Some states do not require bicyclists to ride FRAP when there is no other traffic.

    * It doesn't seem too hard (at least in NJ) for bicyclists and drivers to share the road. The basic requirements to do that is for drivers to be a bit more patient (and understand that bicyclists can/may be in the lane) and for bicyclists to facilitate passing.

    * It isn't clear to me that there is any sort of epidemic of bicyclists being cited incorrectly for violating FRAP. No one has made any sort of effort to make the case that these incorrect citations occur any more regularly than any other sort of incorrect citation.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 06-22-11 at 01:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    * Bicycles are a subclass of "slow moving vehicle". They have a rather distinct property of being very narrow. That property means that general slow moving vehicle laws (such as the "pull out" laws) might be unreasonably restrictive (and unnecessary) for bicyclists.
    A good list. I would add 'providing almost no crash protection to the rider' as another rather distinct property.

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