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  1. #51
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    Actually, unless you are doing it voluntarily, answering a Police Officers questions without having your attorney present, or having been informed of your rights under the 5th Amendment does violate your rights under U.S. law. In U.S. Society, your rights do not get 'checked' at the front door just because you are in public. And as far as the law is concerned, violating your 5th Amendment rights is the same as going through your pockets without a warrant, or pursuant to an arrest.

    Have they just completely dispensed with teaching Civics in schools anymore????? This is all stuff I learned in 7th grade.

    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    Who's confused? The people who make the laws, and that's because they listen to the rustle of money in their ears first.

    Answering a cop's questions abridges your rights? Really? Sorry, but your privacy gets checked at your front door in society; you enter the public domain, and your right to privacy is subjugated to the right of society to be orderly. Questioning you isn't the same as going through your pockets.

  2. #52
    Senior Member ianbrettcooper's Avatar
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    As a resident of Montgomery County, MD, each of my bikes is required to be registered with the county, and each of them receives a license and a number plate which must be attached to the bike frame. This process costs me nothing and is paid for by county taxes. If that's what people want to spend their tax money on, I'm fine with that. I think it's stupid, because motorists are essentially paying the vast majority of the bill for my license, but hey, that's apparently what they voted for, so whenever I get a new bike, I happily license it.

    By the way, the whole thing is a joke. The police don't ticket folks who don't license their bikes, the license plates are tiny (they can't be read unless you're closer than 5ft away) and can be fixed anywhere on the frame, and the numbers are not used in any way to promote road safety or to prevent crime. It's just a stupid boondoggle.
    1997 Jamis Aragon (converted to touring bike), two white 1974 Gazelle-built Raleigh Grands Prix, two red 1973 Gazelle-built Raleigh Grands Prix.

    All I need is a bike and a road, and to be left with the same freedom any other road user has to decide what's the safest lane position.

  3. #53
    Senior Member ianbrettcooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fargo Wolf View Post
    Not necessarily. IF bikes are ever required to have a number plate and validation decal, it would probably be the same size as those issued to motorcycles/non-commercial trailers. These are generally smaller than plates issued to vehicles
    Motorcycles and bicycles ARE vehicles.
    1997 Jamis Aragon (converted to touring bike), two white 1974 Gazelle-built Raleigh Grands Prix, two red 1973 Gazelle-built Raleigh Grands Prix.

    All I need is a bike and a road, and to be left with the same freedom any other road user has to decide what's the safest lane position.

  4. #54
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    Intentions -- there is no crime against INTENDING to do anything. . . until it's done. THEN the intent can be used.

    There have long been prosecutions on conspiracy to commit statutes where no crime has actually taken place and under the Patriot Act there are relatively high profile prosecutions of people enticed to say they wish to commit a crime by undercover agents of anti-terrorism task forces who feel the need to justify their very expensive existence.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealhe View Post
    Hello All,

    Should pedal bicycles be licensed?


    http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d16_7/vc39001.htm


    The fees collected could be used for provident purposes to benefit the
    cycling community at large.


    With more money safer facilities could be constructed.


    If cyclists use the roads why should they not pay as motorists do?


    Are we freeloaders?


    Cheers,


    Neal
    No, no, no a thousand times no.

    A) what safeguards would be put in place to ensure that the money doesn't get diverted to fund other projects?
    B) what would these "safer" facilities be?
    C) because we already do via our sales tax, income tax, property tax, also the stores, companies, and businesses that we do business with pass on the various fees associated with owning automobiles.
    D) NO, we are not, see above. plus when one takes into account the amount of wear and tear that the typical automobile causes vs. that caused by a bicycle is way greater. so for those who claim that cyclists do not "pay their fair share" I have to say that that is correct, we actually pay MORE than our fair share.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Digital_Cowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthammer View Post
    I don't know about elsewhere but when I was growing up in California in the late '50s and early '60s all of our bikes were registered with the local police or the CHP (I don't remember which), and after the bike was give a "safety check" and we were given a small foil sticker to place at the bottom of the seat tube. By the late '60s I believe, this whole process disappeared due to the cost to the state or local governments from what I understand.

    As far as cyclists not paying taxes for road use the answer is quite simple. If you own real estate you pay property taxes to the local government and those funds contribute to the local government's costs, and if you rent the property owner factors in a portion his property taxes into your rent. We don't pay gas taxes because we don't use gas, but more importantly, we do not cause the wear and tear on the roadways that car and trucks produce, so why should we pay for maintaining something that we don't contribute to?
    Uh, actually indirectly we do "buy" gasoline as well as diesel fuel. Or do you think that when you go shopping that the companies that you shop at do not pass those costs on to you? Likewise those companies that make the products that you are purchasing also pass on the various fuel costs involved in the manufacturing process, as well as those costs in transporting the raw materials and then transporting the finished product to the store. So yes, we pay all of those same fees, just not directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthammer View Post
    Requiring registration or licensing of bicycles is virtually unenforceable without a massive increase in government and government spending, both of which we certainly don't need. If they really want to tax bicycles though, they should do it at the point-of-sale.
    Agreed, and they already do, it's called a sales tax.
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  7. #57
    Roadmaster Snobbery Club bhtooefr's Avatar
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    I actually need to register my bikes - my city, Newark, OH, has required bicycle registration since 1985.

    I've never heard of it being enforced, but what the hell, it's $1 a bike. I'll probably call the police department on Monday and see what I'm supposed to do (or if they even know how to do it).

    And, the tag is meant to be placed on the rear fender if present, or the "rear of the frame" if not. Both of my bikes have fenders, so...
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  8. #58
    Senior Member howsteepisit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
    I actually need to register my bikes - my city, Newark, OH, has required bicycle registration since 1985.

    I've never heard of it being enforced, but what the hell, it's $1 a bike. I'll probably call the police department on Monday and see what I'm supposed to do (or if they even know how to do it).

    And, the tag is meant to be placed on the rear fender if present, or the "rear of the frame" if not. Both of my bikes have fenders, so...

    So what do the police tell you if you report your bicycle stolen? Stories I have heard are that police generally tell people whose bicycles have been stolen..Thats too bad, we have no hope of recovery. So is it different in Newark, OH? I'd bet not, so that the registration and fee are just another bureaucratic boondoggle waste of money, with no real benefit. But maybe not, I don't live there, so I am speculating.
    Last edited by howsteepisit; 02-16-13 at 06:25 PM.
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  9. #59
    Roadmaster Snobbery Club bhtooefr's Avatar
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    Honestly, I don't know. I'd guess they'd say the same thing, though.

    (Of course, here, most transportational cyclists are riding around bike-shaped objects after they got busted driving drunk.)

    No matter what happens, I'm going to contact city council and ask that the law be repealed.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member 009jim's Avatar
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    Only if prams and grocery carts are also licensed.

  11. #61
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
    Agreed, and they already do, it's called a sales tax.
    Also, much of your fuel is taxed. The meat and potatoes you made for dinner last night probably weren't, but that fast food burger you bought today after your ride? Taxed.

  12. #62
    Mmm hm! agent pombero's Avatar
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    No. The moment bicycles can be licensed is the moment the introduction of bike insurance will happen. No license = no insurance = no pedal pedal for you. The moment bicycles are to be licensed is also the day that the license can be revoked: thus preventing you legally to ride a bicycle.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schwinnhund View Post
    Actually, unless you are doing it voluntarily, answering a Police Officers questions without having your attorney present, or having been informed of your rights under the 5th Amendment does violate your rights under U.S. law. In U.S. Society, your rights do not get 'checked' at the front door just because you are in public. And as far as the law is concerned, violating your 5th Amendment rights is the same as going through your pockets without a warrant, or pursuant to an arrest.

    Have they just completely dispensed with teaching Civics in schools anymore????? This is all stuff I learned in 7th grade.
    Okay, first you want to parse my comment by inserting "voluntary"; CLUE FOR YOU -- NO ONE, UNDER ANY LEGAL CIRCUMSTANCE, CAN BE REQUIRED TO SPEAK ABOUT ANYTHING AGAINST THEIR WILL; I can SHUT UP at any time I choose, and they'd have to break out the waterboard (ILLEGAL) to change that. So "voluntary" goes on the trash heap.

    If anyone is DUMB enough to say something to a cop THAT INCRIMINATES THEM IN A CRIME, then I'd file that under "Darwin". Just speaking to a cop doesn't violate the 5th. Nice try, but trash heap once again. (And as far as going through my pockets, good luck getting your fingers back, I don't care WHO you are; BTW, post-arrest search has been standard for longer than JFK's legacy, too....)

    I DIDN'T SAY your RIGHTS get checked at the door, I said your "PRIVACY"; the only privacy protected by the Constitution is the right against "unreasonable search and seizure". What you say and do, that you don't want someone else to react to, needs to be done in your home. Once in public, your conduct is in the public domain, and open to society's judgment -- legal, ethical, moral, acceptable.

    If YOU didn't learn that in your Civics class, then you failed.

  14. #64
    Senior Member ianbrettcooper's Avatar
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    LOL. Sounds like someone has missed a dose of his medication.
    1997 Jamis Aragon (converted to touring bike), two white 1974 Gazelle-built Raleigh Grands Prix, two red 1973 Gazelle-built Raleigh Grands Prix.

    All I need is a bike and a road, and to be left with the same freedom any other road user has to decide what's the safest lane position.

  15. #65
    Senior Member mustang1's Avatar
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    If cyclists use the roads why should they not pay as motorists do?

    THATS ABSURD. You're looking at it the other way round: if cyclists use the rroads for free, then why shouldn't motorists?
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  16. #66
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    Cyclists already DO -- it's called general tax fund at the municipal and state levels. The various fees attached to cars do next to nothing to pay for the roads. Gas taxes and registration fees for one car won't cover a shovelful of patch asphalt.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianbrettcooper View Post
    LOL. Sounds like someone has missed a dose of his medication.
    Yup -- Zantac, this tool gave me indigestion. Your point?

  18. #68
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    Okay, first you want to parse my comment by inserting "voluntary"; CLUE FOR YOU -- NO ONE, UNDER ANY LEGAL CIRCUMSTANCE, CAN BE REQUIRED TO SPEAK ABOUT ANYTHING AGAINST THEIR WILL
    This is not true, not in the US anyways.

    The Fifth Amendment says "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself", and we know what that means. However, in a civil case, you certainly can be required to speak about something and can even be required to testify against yourself, under penalty of contempt of court.

    That said, a default stance of "shut the hell up until your lawyer tells you otherwise" will rarely fail you when dealing with police, the government or the courts.

  19. #69
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    I wouldn't be ok with licensing, and I would be ok with a "bike tax" being levied on bike sales to pay for infrastructure investment. However, after seeing how NYS has bungled the hunting permits, the trail permits, and a host of other permits which were supposed to fund the infrastructure to improve access to all of that, but instead were diverted into the general fund; I can't get behind that unless the government levying the tax showed diligence in keeping the funds where they belonged.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    Okay, first you want to parse my comment by inserting "voluntary"; CLUE FOR YOU -- NO ONE, UNDER ANY LEGAL CIRCUMSTANCE, CAN BE REQUIRED TO SPEAK ABOUT ANYTHING AGAINST THEIR WILL; I can SHUT UP at any time I choose, and they'd have to break out the waterboard (ILLEGAL) to change that. So "voluntary" goes on the trash heap.
    Tell that to the judge, on your way to jail for not answering a question on the stand...

  21. #71
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    OK, Your Honor, I'll admit it -- I did your sister.

    Uber, you're a PITA; I think I'll put you on ignore -- mainly because of your intransigence elsewhere.

  22. #72
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    No. Cyclists should not be licensed.

    But it would be great if manufacturers built a RFID chip in the frame so that removing it would also ruin the frame - with carbon fiber frames it's a trivial task. Then I could register my 2000€ racing bike with the police and if stolen, it can be tagged as stolen and chances of finding that bike in a pawn shop or even on street would increase significantly. But that should be strictly voluntary - I see no need to register a 50€ old clunker. Voluntary (but strictly voluntary) insurance for cyclist is also welcome - accidents happen and it can be beneficial to have your back covered. I know because I've had a situation at a traffic light - I thought "We can make it through green" and sprinted, the car driver in front thought "I can't make it through green" (a rare thinking by a motorist, indeed) and braked; wet weather didn't help, either... Another lesson learned. All this voluntary thing is a slippery slope, though - sooner or later some politicians think that it's a good idea to make it compulsory.

    Actually, where I live children up to age 16 must take a traffic course and have a license to ride in the streets. But that's not enforced. I think it's not that bad idea, but even better would be to include traffic education right into school programs - in these times we get involved in this crazy jungle of high-speed traffic as soon as we can walk and the rules of the road is as essential knowledge as writing.

  23. #73
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    When I was younger my mother made my siblings and I take a non-mandatory bike safety course. Well, at the time it was more of a "how to handle your bike" course, but I wouldn't be against making people take a (free) bike safety course. Then again, enforcing whether or not it's been taken would require more money than it's worth.

    The argument of "bikes are vehicles" is valid however, cars are registered in classes. Small cars, full sized cars, small SUVs, huge trucks etc. Each one paying more than the previous due to weight. Since my 3500 lb car costs ~$60-$80 a year to register, that'd make my 20 lb bike.... $0.34 a year to register. And that's assuming a linear relationship, which it is not. I know for a fact that full sized (half ton trucks I think) pay upwards of $400 to register for the year.

    The simple fact is, it's next to impossible to make that profitable, therefore it is ignored. And besides, bikes to no damage to the road. However, the same could be said for ultra light cars. If roads can withstand huge 18 wheelers I doubt a 1800 lb smart car is going to do any damage to the road.

    I think teaching people how to ride correctly and comfortably on the road is a good idea, but impossible for the state to implement due to money.

    With that said, it would not be hard to out run someone in a car while you are on your bike, just ride over a few curbs and you've lost them. I had the same thinking when I was a young boy riding my dirtbike on the road. I never understood why people stopped for the police when they were riding an off road vehicle and they're surrounded by woods/farm fields.

  24. #74
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Motorists don't pay to use the roads... they may think they do but they do not. Fees collected barely pay for the licensing services themselves.
    That's arguably true for drivers license and car registration fees, though some places in the East coast I hear have registration fees that fall into the Real Money™ category.

    But fuel taxes ... they are Real Money™, and they do pay for a significant portion of the road maintenance and construction costs. In Texas, the state portion pays for about 33-50% of the state highway system budget -- the roads with numbers. City roads, the roads that cyclists use most often, are paid for by sales and property taxes mostly.

    In any event, while taxes on motorists pay for a relatively small portion of the total road budget (33-50% of the state highway system, 0% of the local roads, and I think the federal part of the fuel tax pays like 50% of the national highway system?) -- the money collected goes way beyond "barely paying for the licensing services themselves".

    Also, toll roads have become pretty popular (with the powers that be, not the people) around here, and they certainly collect a lot more than the licensing services themselves. One thing that helps in that regard is that they've streamlined things a lot -- most toll booths around here are no longer manned, and don't even take cash -- instead, you have a tag on your card, and if not, they mail you a bill plus a $5 surcharge (ouch.)

  25. #75
    Senior Member dougmc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
    The argument of "bikes are vehicles" is valid however, cars are registered in classes. Small cars, full sized cars, small SUVs, huge trucks etc. Each one paying more than the previous due to weight. Since my 3500 lb car costs ~$60-$80 a year to register, that'd make my 20 lb bike.... $0.34 a year to register. And that's assuming a linear relationship, which it is not.
    As you said, it's not even close to linear.

    If you're looking for a more fair comparison, look at what they charge for a motorcycle compared to a car. I don't know what state you're in so I can't look up the figure there, but here in Texas a motorcycle pays about half of what a passenger car pays, even though it may weigh around 10% as much on average. If we were to continue this trend, a bicycle would cost around $20/year. Which still might not pay for the administration of the system (or it might) -- but it's way more than $0.34.

    Note that arguments about "damage done to the road" don't really carry much weight in this [not that you brought up this argument, just saying this in general.] Passenger cars don't do much damage to the road either -- it's the big trucks that do that, them and mother nature/time. Even paths that *never* have motor vehicles on them deteriorate due to the passage of time, and still need maintenance, and we can't charge mother nature, so if we wanted to charge the users of the road, that would mean pedestrians and/or cyclists -- not motorists.

    So if a road has both bicycles and motor vehicles using it, and we wanted to charge the users for the construction and maintenance of the road fairly -- we'd need to charge both groups, even though the bicycles do zero damage to the road. Presumably the rate for a bicycle would be less than that for a passenger car, but it shouldn't be zero.

    (That said, considering that in the US roads are mostly paid for by sales, property and income taxes rather than fuel taxes, I see this as a non-issue -- there's no need to directly charge bicycles just because they're on the road, except maybe for a road that is charging cars a toll.)
    Last edited by dougmc; 08-19-13 at 03:36 PM.

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