Irrate driver challanges family bicycle group.
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the amount of misinformation used by john to buttress his argument is staggering.
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american traffic laws by and large don't require that. bicyclists can ride in the lane of traffic avoid unsafe road or shoulder conditions in all 50 states when necessary for their safety. the laws do not require cyclists 'stay out of the way' for convenience of motorists, they generally regulate sharing the road only when safe to do so.
the amount of misinformation used by john to buttress his argument is staggering.
the amount of misinformation used by john to buttress his argument is staggering.
Whatever may be Bek's motives, the exceptions to the anti-cyclist discriminatory laws (and Bek has to rely on the exceptions to make his case) are rarely understood against the obvious principle that cyclists are supposed to stay out of the way of motorists. Being not understood, the basic discrimination stands. Moreover, motorists are never required to justify obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles, while cyclists who obey those rules often have to prove that their safety demands that they obey the normal rules of the road instead of the discriminatory laws.
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Originally Posted by johnforester
...the obvious principle that cyclists are supposed to stay out of the way of motorists.
the semantics about obeying general traffic rules are meaningless.
A bicycle bus of schoolchildren encountering an angry motorist could just as easily have occurred in North Carolina, Arkansas, or another state that regulates bikes under the general rules of the road, with no laws errantly portrayed as 'anti-cyclist.'
People might recall the man shot in the helmet by an off duty fireman for taking the lane on bicycles with his wife and child riding with him? That happened in North Carolina, a state where bicyclists obey the general traffic rules of the road.
Last edited by Bekologist; 01-06-12 at 04:03 PM.
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Please specify the differences in performance between motor vehicles and bicycles that are relevant to traffic movements, and explain how these differences affect traffic movements in such a way that motorists and cyclists should not make these movements according to the same rules of the road.
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Quite inaccurate, quite misleading. jf furtively hides anti cycling at the core of his rhetoric.
the semantics about obeying general traffic rules are meaningless.
A bicycle bus of schoolchildren encountering an angry motorist could just as easily have occurred in North Carolina, Arkansas, or another state that regulates bikes under the general rules of the road, with no laws errantly portrayed as 'anti-cyclist.'
People might recall the man shot in the helmet by an off duty fireman for taking the lane on bicycles with his wife and child riding with him? That happened in North Carolina, a state where bicyclists obey the general traffic rules of the road.
the semantics about obeying general traffic rules are meaningless.
A bicycle bus of schoolchildren encountering an angry motorist could just as easily have occurred in North Carolina, Arkansas, or another state that regulates bikes under the general rules of the road, with no laws errantly portrayed as 'anti-cyclist.'
People might recall the man shot in the helmet by an off duty fireman for taking the lane on bicycles with his wife and child riding with him? That happened in North Carolina, a state where bicyclists obey the general traffic rules of the road.
Therefore, Bek's latest conveys no new information.
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Genec's words must needs be taken to say that he believes that the difference between hydrocarbons and carbohydrates as fuel mandates, for safety, differences in the appropriate rules of the road. However, he has supplied no explanation to support his belief, apparently thinking that only childish mental processes are required to support his belief. Well, childish thinking has long been the bane of American bicycle policy.
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I only just returned to this thread after making my last post and see that hagen2456 is doing an excellent job of responding to questions directed my way. You tell 'em 56 .....
John: I don't consider that cyclists are "inferior", a perjorative term that has no place in the discussion imo. They are DIFFERENT to drivers/riders of motorized vehicles, and therefore should be subject to different regulations - for their own benefit as well as the benefit of other road users.
Are you seriously asking me to describe the differences between a road bike and an M Roadster or a Navigator? IYO, should these vehicles have equal access to I-5, for example?
John: I don't consider that cyclists are "inferior", a perjorative term that has no place in the discussion imo. They are DIFFERENT to drivers/riders of motorized vehicles, and therefore should be subject to different regulations - for their own benefit as well as the benefit of other road users.
Are you seriously asking me to describe the differences between a road bike and an M Roadster or a Navigator? IYO, should these vehicles have equal access to I-5, for example?
Last edited by ChasH; 01-06-12 at 07:05 PM.
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The subject under discussion was obeying the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. Here is my statement to which genec has ... well, he has done something of a literary nature, but I don't know what to call it, for it is neither comment nor answer to my statement. Here are my words: "Please specify the differences in performance between motor vehicles and bicycles that are relevant to traffic movements, and explain how these differences affect traffic movements in such a way that motorists and cyclists should not make these movements according to the same rules of the road."
Genec's words must needs be taken to say that he believes that the difference between hydrocarbons and carbohydrates as fuel mandates, for safety, differences in the appropriate rules of the road. However, he has supplied no explanation to support his belief, apparently thinking that only childish mental processes are required to support his belief. Well, childish thinking has long been the bane of American bicycle policy.
Genec's words must needs be taken to say that he believes that the difference between hydrocarbons and carbohydrates as fuel mandates, for safety, differences in the appropriate rules of the road. However, he has supplied no explanation to support his belief, apparently thinking that only childish mental processes are required to support his belief. Well, childish thinking has long been the bane of American bicycle policy.
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...as well as the convenience of cyclists, whenever traffic is fast and heavy. Can't say I envy the cars their lanes
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I only just returned to this thread after making my last post and see that hagen2456 is doing an excellent job of responding to questions directed my way. You tell 'em 56 .....
John: I don't consider that cyclists are "inferior", a perjorative term that has no place in the discussion imo. They are DIFFERENT to drivers/riders of motorized vehicles, and therefore should be subject to different regulations - for their own benefit as well as the benefit of other road users.
Are you seriously asking me to describe the differences between a road bike and an M Roadster or a Navigator? IYO, should these vehicles have equal access to I-5, for example?
John: I don't consider that cyclists are "inferior", a perjorative term that has no place in the discussion imo. They are DIFFERENT to drivers/riders of motorized vehicles, and therefore should be subject to different regulations - for their own benefit as well as the benefit of other road users.
Are you seriously asking me to describe the differences between a road bike and an M Roadster or a Navigator? IYO, should these vehicles have equal access to I-5, for example?
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What in the world do trucks and planning for roadway bicycle traffic via separate roadways(?) have to do with a motorist endangering a bicycling bevy of children en route to school on a low speed residential street?
Regardless if the local laws mention bicycles or not and independent of the presence of a bikelane, improved shoulder or path, some motorists in america are going to get uppity when encountering a bunch of cyclists.
Evidence suggest these interactions are smoother and safer when bikes ARE planned for in the transportation mix.
Regardless if the local laws mention bicycles or not and independent of the presence of a bikelane, improved shoulder or path, some motorists in america are going to get uppity when encountering a bunch of cyclists.
Evidence suggest these interactions are smoother and safer when bikes ARE planned for in the transportation mix.
#62
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Um...
In the OP, there was one driver cited as being aggressive and causing problems. How many drivers patiently wait behind the kiddie peloton along that same stretch of road, all the time? And pass safely when safe to do so?
In my experience, it's 1 in 20 to 50 drivers who do something boneheaded on the road and I give them the benefit of the doubt -- might have been merely inattention or accidental, not something they do normally. It's when the same driver tries to kill me a second time in the same short span of an encounter that I take issue.
Truly aggressive drivers like the one in the OP, are in my experience, a rarity, maybe 1 in 1,000.
And guess what? Where are prime jerks in every walk of life -- why should the roads be any different?
The OP story is really great: driver thought they were in the right, took action, found out they were wrong, and the school made an issue -- a teaching opportunity -- about it.
In the OP, there was one driver cited as being aggressive and causing problems. How many drivers patiently wait behind the kiddie peloton along that same stretch of road, all the time? And pass safely when safe to do so?
In my experience, it's 1 in 20 to 50 drivers who do something boneheaded on the road and I give them the benefit of the doubt -- might have been merely inattention or accidental, not something they do normally. It's when the same driver tries to kill me a second time in the same short span of an encounter that I take issue.
Truly aggressive drivers like the one in the OP, are in my experience, a rarity, maybe 1 in 1,000.
And guess what? Where are prime jerks in every walk of life -- why should the roads be any different?
The OP story is really great: driver thought they were in the right, took action, found out they were wrong, and the school made an issue -- a teaching opportunity -- about it.
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I only just returned to this thread after making my last post and see that hagen2456 is doing an excellent job of responding to questions directed my way. You tell 'em 56 .....
John: I don't consider that cyclists are "inferior", a perjorative term that has no place in the discussion imo. They are DIFFERENT to drivers/riders of motorized vehicles, and therefore should be subject to different regulations - for their own benefit as well as the benefit of other road users.
Are you seriously asking me to describe the differences between a road bike and an M Roadster or a Navigator? IYO, should these vehicles have equal access to I-5, for example?
John: I don't consider that cyclists are "inferior", a perjorative term that has no place in the discussion imo. They are DIFFERENT to drivers/riders of motorized vehicles, and therefore should be subject to different regulations - for their own benefit as well as the benefit of other road users.
Are you seriously asking me to describe the differences between a road bike and an M Roadster or a Navigator? IYO, should these vehicles have equal access to I-5, for example?
You fail to understand the legal difference between drivers of vehicles and drivers of motor vehicles. Drivers of vehicles are not permitted to use freeways unless they are also driving a motor vehicle; I have no problem with that as a general principle.
You have failed to provide evidence that the differences between bicycles and other vehicles should require them to operate according to different rules of the road.
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Your comment is therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
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What in the world do trucks and planning for roadway bicycle traffic via separate roadways(?) have to do with a motorist endangering a bicycling bevy of children en route to school on a low speed residential street?
Regardless if the local laws mention bicycles or not and independent of the presence of a bikelane, improved shoulder or path, some motorists in america are going to get uppity when encountering a bunch of cyclists.
Evidence suggest these interactions are smoother and safer when bikes ARE planned for in the transportation mix.
Regardless if the local laws mention bicycles or not and independent of the presence of a bikelane, improved shoulder or path, some motorists in america are going to get uppity when encountering a bunch of cyclists.
Evidence suggest these interactions are smoother and safer when bikes ARE planned for in the transportation mix.
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It doesn't matter whether you think that cyclists are inferior to other drivers; that is the typical American traffic law.
You fail to understand the legal difference between drivers of vehicles and drivers of motor vehicles. Drivers of vehicles are not permitted to use freeways unless they are also driving a motor vehicle; I have no problem with that as a general principle.
You fail to understand the legal difference between drivers of vehicles and drivers of motor vehicles. Drivers of vehicles are not permitted to use freeways unless they are also driving a motor vehicle; I have no problem with that as a general principle.
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Please inform us of why the mass of a vehicle determines the way in which its driver should, for example, make a left turn, or should act with regard to a traffic signal, or any other of the rules of the road. I know of no way in which mass makes that difference, either physically or by law.
Your comment is therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
Your comment is therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
Vulnerability, too. Remember the parable of the heavy weight champion vs. me? I may dodge and duck for a while, but once I'm hit, it's aaaaall over.
It's not bike vs. car, nor cyclist vs. driver. Drivers are protected inside their cars. Cyclists are not protected. So they're a lot more vulnerable. Cars are on an equal footing with each other, but not with cyclists. They are different, and the laws must recognize this as far as possible.
Was this really necessary?
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Mass, speed (and for some reason you "forgot" the "speed" part), impact.
Vulnerability, too. Remember the parable of the heavy weight champion vs. me? I may dodge and duck for a while, but once I'm hit, it's aaaaall over.
It's not bike vs. car, nor cyclist vs. driver. Drivers are protected inside their cars. Cyclists are not protected. So they're a lot more vulnerable. Cars are on an equal footing with each other, but not with cyclists. They are different, and the laws must recognize this as far as possible.
Was this really necessary?
Vulnerability, too. Remember the parable of the heavy weight champion vs. me? I may dodge and duck for a while, but once I'm hit, it's aaaaall over.
It's not bike vs. car, nor cyclist vs. driver. Drivers are protected inside their cars. Cyclists are not protected. So they're a lot more vulnerable. Cars are on an equal footing with each other, but not with cyclists. They are different, and the laws must recognize this as far as possible.
Was this really necessary?
#69
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Oh poor "Hagen," speaking from a "European view..." Never mind that the ride share for cyclists in several of those aforementioned European cities is many times greater than that of almost any city in America; America where the car rules, where roads are designed with high speed motor traffic in mind, and where "following the rules of the road" has done nothing to encourage people to bicycle where it is practicable. (never mind that so many American motorists bend those very rules of the road any chance they have).
America, where the "father" of effective cycling believes that the automobile is one of the best inventions of the last century. And where even his beloved England is toying with bike lanes to encourage the use of the bicycle on already over crowded streets.
Sigh. Good luck Hagen... you are debating with a brick wall.
America, where the "father" of effective cycling believes that the automobile is one of the best inventions of the last century. And where even his beloved England is toying with bike lanes to encourage the use of the bicycle on already over crowded streets.
Sigh. Good luck Hagen... you are debating with a brick wall.
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Oh poor "Hagen," speaking from a "European view..." Never mind that the ride share for cyclists in several of those aforementioned European cities is many times greater than that of almost any city in America; America where the car rules, where roads are designed with high speed motor traffic in mind, and where "following the rules of the road" has done nothing to encourage people to bicycle where it is practicable. (never mind that so many American motorists bend those very rules of the road any chance they have).
America, where the "father" of effective cycling believes that the automobile is one of the best inventions of the last century. And where even his beloved England is toying with bike lanes to encourage the use of the bicycle on already over crowded streets.
Sigh. Good luck Hagen... you are debating with a brick wall.
America, where the "father" of effective cycling believes that the automobile is one of the best inventions of the last century. And where even his beloved England is toying with bike lanes to encourage the use of the bicycle on already over crowded streets.
Sigh. Good luck Hagen... you are debating with a brick wall.
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Thing is, the streets the kids on bikes are taking to school have a 25 mph speed limit on Rio Road, and on Lasuen drive (the road leading behind the mission) has two very sharp turns that you cannot navigate over 15 mph. Plenty of cyclists and joggers use this road, and it is very narrow so that you cannot pass if someone is coming in the other direction. Drivers are notorious for taking those corners way too fast. My son used to ride his bike through there, but he and other cyclists-- and joggers-- were able to cut through the schoolyard on the other side of the mission before they put gates up. There also used to be a path but the school got into a snit about people using it and closed it off. They should lobby for right of way and open that path up again... or start coming down on people driving too fast through that neighborhood...
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What do you call a cyclist who sells potpourri on the road? A pedaling petal-peddler.
What do you call a cyclist who sells potpourri on the road? A pedaling petal-peddler.
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Thing is, the streets the kids on bikes are taking to school have a 25 mph speed limit on Rio Road, and on Lasuen drive (the road leading behind the mission) has two very sharp turns that you cannot navigate over 15 mph. Plenty of cyclists and joggers use this road, and it is very narrow so that you cannot pass if someone is coming in the other direction. Drivers are notorious for taking those corners way too fast. My son used to ride his bike through there, but he and other cyclists-- and joggers-- were able to cut through the schoolyard on the other side of the mission before they put gates up. There also used to be a path but the school got into a snit about people using it and closed it off. They should lobby for right of way and open that path up again... or start coming down on people driving too fast through that neighborhood...
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I doubt the Junipero Serra school will want a bike path through there, anyway. I'd say signage and some bike sharrows on Lasuen and Rio road would be more feasible. (And watch the fun begin when school lets out in the afternoons...) And then there's Clint Eastwood in his massive F-350 diesel driving through there from Mission Ranch, though he's a lot more considerate than his TV anchor wife (almost collided with her one day when she went flying out of the driveway), but I'm digressing here.
Then again, maybe if he did a local PSA for kids walking and cycling to school... would he do that?
Then again, maybe if he did a local PSA for kids walking and cycling to school... would he do that?
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What do you call a cyclist who sells potpourri on the road? A pedaling petal-peddler.
What do you call a cyclist who sells potpourri on the road? A pedaling petal-peddler.
#74
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I doubt the Junipero Serra school will want a bike path through there, anyway. I'd say signage and some bike sharrows on Lasuen and Rio road would be more feasible. (And watch the fun begin when school lets out in the afternoons...) And then there's Clint Eastwood in his massive F-350 diesel driving through there from Mission Ranch, though he's a lot more considerate than his TV anchor wife (almost collided with her one day when she went flying out of the driveway), but I'm digressing here.
Then again, maybe if he did a local PSA for kids walking and cycling to school... would he do that?
Then again, maybe if he did a local PSA for kids walking and cycling to school... would he do that?
Haven't you heard.. Clint got a Prius. The bumper sticker: Make My Day!
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Oh poor "Hagen," speaking from a "European view..." Never mind that the ride share for cyclists in several of those aforementioned European cities is many times greater than that of almost any city in America; America where the car rules, where roads are designed with high speed motor traffic in mind, and where "following the rules of the road" has done nothing to encourage people to bicycle where it is practicable. (never mind that so many American motorists bend those very rules of the road any chance they have).
America, where the "father" of effective cycling believes that the automobile is one of the best inventions of the last century. And where even his beloved England is toying with bike lanes to encourage the use of the bicycle on already over crowded streets.
Sigh. Good luck Hagen... you are debating with a brick wall.
America, where the "father" of effective cycling believes that the automobile is one of the best inventions of the last century. And where even his beloved England is toying with bike lanes to encourage the use of the bicycle on already over crowded streets.
Sigh. Good luck Hagen... you are debating with a brick wall.
Genec has presented an ideological spiel that is completely irrelevant to the issue being discussed. That issue is whether the difference between the vehicles used by cyclists and motorists justifies the anti-cyclist discrimination built into American traffic law and bikeways.
genec, don't insult brick walls, they serve a purpose.