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-   -   Irrate driver challanges family bicycle group. (http://www.bikeforums.net/vehicular-cycling-vc/789006-irrate-driver-challanges-family-bicycle-group.html)

Doane 12-27-11 11:48 PM

Irrate driver challanges family bicycle group.
 
This article was in our local paper, The Carmel Pine Cone earlier this month. The bicyclist is the owner of a great, local bike shop, Bay Bikes. I bought my Specialized bike from them for commuting to work up the same road he goes to and from school on with his kids.
Anyway, here is the article.. what do you think?


The Article
(half way down the page on the left.)

And here is the complete article (click here)

RunningPirate 12-27-11 11:57 PM

Posting a link to the article: http://www.pineconearchive.com/111216-5.htm

(the link to the .pdf you posted only showed the first page)

It's hard to think that folks that are fortunate enough to live in Carmel would let something like this irritate them, but there you have it. I'm glad that no one was hurt and that CPD sided with the riders (made me wonder how this would have shaken out when Mayor Eastwood was still in office :) )

Doane 12-28-11 12:10 AM

Sorry, RP, you posted pretty fast, before I realized I didn't have the whole article linked, but I do now. Read the whole thing in this link: (click here).

By the way, Carmel has changed a lot over the years and is now populated by a bunch of irritated (and very rich) people.. and it's not very populated anymore, most of them are out of area owners. It's still beautiful though.

Chris516 12-28-11 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doane (Post 13646970)
Sorry, RP, you posted pretty fast, before I realized I didn't have the whole article linked, but I do now. Read the whole thing in this link: (click here).

By the way, Carmel has changed a lot over the years and is now populated by a bunch of irritated (and very rich) people.. and it's not very populated anymore, most of them are out of area owners. It's still beautiful though.

I am glad sane people still live in Carmel.(the woman driving the Mercedes is not one of them)

genec 12-28-11 09:09 AM

Yet another driver believing that they own the road. Until the public at large is educated, these sorts of issues will continue.

Fargo Wolf 12-28-11 09:24 AM

The driver's actions border on Criminal Harassment/Reckless/Willful Endangerment and if it ever goes to trial, Miss Idiot Mercedes Driver will be on the losing end.

Doane 12-28-11 09:25 AM

What causes the anger?
 
What do you think causes the anger in drivers?
  1. They are in a rush and don't like being slowed down?
  2. They don't think bikes belong on public streets?
  3. They feel superior because they are in a bigger/stronger vehicle?
  4. They're secretly jealous because they are out of shape?

Your thoughts?...

The_DK 12-28-11 09:39 AM

I know quite a few haters... their biggest complaints are cyclists blowing reds, riding several abreast and blocking traffic from passing, and ignoring road markings/right of way in general.

That's bad behavior from only a minority of cyclists, but everyone gets judged the same.

eduardo76 12-28-11 10:08 AM

doane - i'd say it's 1 and 2 (maybe also 3, but because they are in a faster vehicle) - i think speed is key...i notice i only get negative reaction from drivers when i am riding on roads with a speed limit over 35mph (which i generally avoid)...it's worth noting that i always ride as far to the right as it is safe and make a conscious effort to be corteous to drivers, which generally keeps me in the clear...

contango 12-28-11 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_DK (Post 13647635)
I know quite a few haters... their biggest complaints are cyclists blowing reds, riding several abreast and blocking traffic from passing, and ignoring road markings/right of way in general.

That's bad behavior from only a minority of cyclists, but everyone gets judged the same.

Perhaps but by the same argument a minority of road users ignore red lights, regard stop signs as advisory, ignore speed limits, tailgate, hog the middle lane, and so on. Yet we don't see the same level of motorists hating on other motorists.

genec 12-28-11 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doane (Post 13647590)
What do you think causes the anger in drivers?
  1. They are in a rush and don't like being slowed down?
  2. They don't think bikes belong on public streets?
  3. They feel superior because they are in a bigger/stronger vehicle?
  4. They're secretly jealous because they are out of shape?

Your thoughts?...

1-3, I doubt 4.

DX-MAN 12-28-11 10:59 AM

I agree with genec, #4 is a non-factor; in this entitled society, the biggest entitlement is not having to sweat, therefore, sloth and obesity reign.

Madam Mercedes, there isn't a thing on the planet THAT important; you're not going off to save lives, you're not giving birth, so slow the F down.

The_DK 12-28-11 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by contango (Post 13647738)
Perhaps but by the same argument a minority of road users ignore red lights, regard stop signs as advisory, ignore speed limits, tailgate, hog the middle lane, and so on. Yet we don't see the same level of motorists hating on other motorists.

There's definitely plenty of car on car hate, but there isn't the divide like with cyclists. Bikes are easier to campaign against though. Getting laws passed to make a cyclist's life more difficult doesn't affect the majority of drivers, so it's certainly easier for them to throw stones in our direction.

It doesn't help that the feeling is mutual. Just as there are dangerous idiots in cars clipping too close to bikes "for lulz" there's bikes purposely making it difficult for folks in cars. Stones are definitely passing over the fence from both sides.

Someone that bumpers up to a kid on a bike and honks? gmafb.

genec 12-28-11 11:55 AM

But of course, (and I have to say this, as this IS the VC subforum) vehicular cyclists will have you believe that the motorists will simply "obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles" and all will go well. Of course honking, crowding and such poor behavior are just part of "the rules of the road, eh?

(is an illegal pass considered "obeying the rules of the road?")
Quote:

But instead of slowing, the woman [driver] started to pass the group on a blind curve.

Doane 12-28-11 01:38 PM

The area in question..
 
Just so you are all aware of it.. we are talking about a narrow residential street with a speed limit of 25mph, but one of the two curves is sign posed at 15mph. It's right behind the Carmel Mission (poignant, right?)

Here is a link on Google maps and if you zoom in you can actually see street views and the bend they are talking about. (click here)

tony_merlino 12-28-11 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doane (Post 13647590)
What do you think causes the anger in drivers?

  1. They are in a rush and don't like being slowed down?
  2. They don't think bikes belong on public streets?
  3. They feel superior because they are in a bigger/stronger vehicle?
  4. They're secretly jealous because they are out of shape?


Your thoughts?...

Mostly 1 and 2, with 2 being a consequence of 1. I think there's also a "5", which is that they don't want to be involved in an accident with (and be responsible for injuring the operator of) this very vulnerable, totally unregulated, unpredictable moving obstruction on the road. 3 and 4 are just paranoia and wishful thinking, respectively, on the part of A&S cyclists.

genec 12-28-11 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony_merlino (Post 13648510)
Mostly 1 and 2, with 2 being a consequence of 1. I think there's also a "5", which is that they don't want to be involved in an accident with (and be responsible for injuring the operator of) this very vulnerable, totally unregulated, unpredictable moving obstruction on the road. 3 and 4 are just paranoia and wishful thinking, respectively, on the part of A&S cyclists.

Well if "5" then why don't motorists drive with caution instead of wild abandon... such as the aforementioned attempt to pass on a blind curve?

tony_merlino 12-28-11 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 13648614)
Well if "5" then why don't motorists drive with caution instead of wild abandon... such as the aforementioned attempt to pass on a blind curve?

Because of 1 and 2.

WPeabody 12-28-11 05:42 PM

Lived in Carmel for 17 years, and lived a block from the River School. Was great for my kids to walk to school, and my son rode to the middle school when he attended there, he took the back way to avoid the traffic in the mornings. In high school though, it was too dicey with the teen drivers, and it's a big honking hill all the way up to the school... in the afternoon traffic is horrendous and the downhill is madness.
I'm glad to hear, though,Mr. Marden is an advocate for walking and biking.
Yes, there is that old Carmel attitude that is so prevalent in the place. I've had run-ins while riding with my kids, with very rude prima donnas in their vehicles. There were several psychotically impatient drivers in the area I ran into a lot, especially the woman in an H2 that drives her kids two miles to school, and some whackos who will pass you no matter where you are... sorry about the rant...

Oh, and the reason so many of them behave that way is that they are overachievers with a lot of social pressure put on them to be super-moms. It's a bit of a contest between them... and they take a lot of speed and drink heavily. I should know, I've been to enough PTA meetings there.

I think one solution is public awareness, the Pine Cone to start, more police presence when the kids are going to and from school, and hefty fines for driving to endanger. The problem with that is, most of the people living there now, as the OP pointed out, are in the .001 percent of the 1 percent and are alpha wolves. That includes putting pressure on the sheriffs department when one of their kind gets into a bit of a bind with the law. It's true, I've seen it at work... :(

John Forester 12-28-11 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 13648066)
But of course, (and I have to say this, as this IS the VC subforum) vehicular cyclists will have you believe that the motorists will simply "obey the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles" and all will go well. Of course honking, crowding and such poor behavior are just part of "the rules of the road, eh?

(is an illegal pass considered "obeying the rules of the road?")

Don't be so silly, Genec. We all know that some motorist movements are unlawful, but it is better to have the order that exists than having less order. Traffic law enforcement is intended to keep the disorder low; and note what occurred once the police were involved: they opted for obedience to traffic laws. All drivers have to operate with a reasonable level of trust in the behavior of other drivers; if there was not such trust, movement would be almost impossible and very slow. The exceptions don't disprove the rule; they emphasize the importance of obeying the rule, and the importance of enforcement to increase obedience.

hagen2456 12-29-11 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Forester (Post 13649532)
...We all know that some motorist movements are unlawful, but it is better to have the order that exists than having less order. Traffic law enforcement is intended to keep the disorder low; and note what occurred once the police were involved: they opted for obedience to traffic laws. All drivers have to operate with a reasonable level of trust in the behavior of other drivers; if there was not such trust, movement would be almost impossible and very slow. The exceptions don't disprove the rule; they emphasize the importance of obeying the rule, and the importance of enforcement to increase obedience.

I have often disagreed with you, but this is one splendid observation.

genec 12-29-11 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Forester (Post 13649532)
Don't be so silly, Genec. We all know that some motorist movements are unlawful, but it is better to have the order that exists than having less order. Traffic law enforcement is intended to keep the disorder low; and note what occurred once the police were involved: they opted for obedience to traffic laws. All drivers have to operate with a reasonable level of trust in the behavior of other drivers; if there was not such trust, movement would be almost impossible and very slow. The exceptions don't disprove the rule; they emphasize the importance of obeying the rule, and the importance of enforcement to increase obedience.

I have no problem with cyclists obeying the rules... it is the motorists that refuse to accept that cyclists obeying the rules that is the problem... which is the whole reason for this thread. Cyclists are obeying the rules and doing so properly, but then motorists come along and grouse about it. Fix that situation. This by the way is what I often run into... as a law abiding vehicular cyclist... motorists that refuse to accept me on the road trying to "fare best" by adhering to the rules of the road.

I find it more than irritating to have to deal with motorists that cannot deal with me following the rules of the road. (and this thread IS ABOUT JUST THAT!)

John Forester 12-29-11 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 13652341)
I have no problem with cyclists obeying the rules... it is the motorists that refuse to accept that cyclists obeying the rules that is the problem... which is the whole reason for this thread. Cyclists are obeying the rules and doing so properly, but then motorists come along and grouse about it. Fix that situation. This by the way is what I often run into... as a law abiding vehicular cyclist... motorists that refuse to accept me on the road trying to "fare best" by adhering to the rules of the road.

I find it more than irritating to have to deal with motorists that cannot deal with me following the rules of the road. (and this thread IS ABOUT JUST THAT!)

Since this discussion is supposed to be limited to motorists who complain about cyclists obeying the rules of the road, I make two suggestions. First, in the case of the individual motorist, just ignore him. Second, when considering motorists in the mass, then work with the legislature to repeal the two California laws (CVC 21202, 21208) that give the population (motorists, police officers, judges, newspaper reporters, and all the rest) the idea that cyclists are prohibited from obeying the rules of the road.

genec 12-30-11 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Forester (Post 13652602)
Since this discussion is supposed to be limited to motorists who complain about cyclists obeying the rules of the road, I make two suggestions. First, in the case of the individual motorist, just ignore him. Second, when considering motorists in the mass, then work with the legislature to repeal the two California laws (CVC 21202, 21208) that give the population (motorists, police officers, judges, newspaper reporters, and all the rest) the idea that cyclists are prohibited from obeying the rules of the road.

I honestly don't believe that group you mention (motorists, police officers, judges, newspaper reporters, and all the rest), especially motorists, even know those laws exist.

John Forester 12-30-11 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genec (Post 13655320)
I honestly don't believe that group you mention (motorists, police officers, judges, newspaper reporters, and all the rest), especially motorists, even know those laws exist.

You are claiming that the general public has no knowledge of any laws that require cyclists to stay at the edge of the roadway and to clear the way for motor traffic? In short, you claim that the general public believes that cyclists have just as much right to use the roadway as do motorists. I think that few would agree.


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