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    Junior Member Vital_Signs's Avatar
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    Lets talk bikes+ cars the resulting road rage

    Lets start with some background. Way back when, when I was young and still had my license I played paintball, and if you've never played they build paintball fields out in the middle of nowhere. On the way there was this long, windy road that was well paved and a lot of cyclist would ride it every morning around the time I was on my way to the field. Unfortunately, there was only the road, there was no sidewalk and no bike lane. So, the cyclist would have to ride on the side of the road and would hug the line of the road to let cars go by.
    I don't know if this is the cause of rage of most drivers, but at the time, I would attribute my annoyance to two reasons:
    1. My safety, this was a winding road, in Florida, and you always have to vigilant because the drivers are morons, so when I had to move over to avoid the cyclists, if I was on a curve I wouldn't be able to see oncoming cars.
    2. I didn't understand why the cyclist would put themselves in that situation. I'd see these guys and wonder why they would consistently put their lives in my hands. Courtesy is hard wired into my mind(my parents raised me right, despite my attempts to thwart them when I was young and dumb ) and I would slow down or move around, try and keep them safe, but it got annoying because I was thinking "suppose I was a new driver and wasn't paying attention? All it takes is a text message(I hate people who can't get off their phone when driving) to send me flying into a group of bikers with nothing to protect them but a bowl of Styrofoam and form fitting pants."

    So, my opinion of cyclists were these morons with a death wish or too much faith in their fellow man who put the burden of their safety into my hands and it was annoying. It was like those kids who think there is no better activity to do on a jungle gym than to nose dive off the monkey bars. I wanted to put every single biker in a corner to reflect on their actions because I didn't like being put in charge of the lives of those cyclists.

    So, now that I am a cyclist myself, I do everything in my power to not put other drivers in that situation and the "share the road" T-shirts kind of annoy me becomes it comes off as pretentious: "I'm on a bike and don't feel like paying attention, so you should watch out for me because I am not going to watch out for you."

    So, to summarize, I think some of the rage from drivers comes from the cyclists simply not paying attention and turning their point A to point B commute into a sick game of "dodge the moron." So, to everyone who has read this far, you're as responsible for those near misses as the "*******" is driving the car, so try and give the 2 ton metal object the right-of-way at all times.
    Last edited by Vital_Signs; 08-24-12 at 04:14 PM.

  2. #2
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    ...
    So, to summarize, I think some of the rage from drivers comes from the cyclists simply not paying attention and turning their point A to point B commute into a sick game of "dodge the moron." So, to everyone who has read this far, you're as responsible for those near misses as the "*******" is driving the car, so try and give the 2 ton metal object the right-of-way at all times.

    So the cyclists are morons, because you or some other driver, not knowing the laws (for example that you must slow on turns and stay behind them until it's clear), might kill them? Doesn't that make the driver the moron?

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    Junior Member Vital_Signs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    So the cyclists are morons, because you or some other driver, not knowing the laws (for example that you must slow on turns and stay behind them until it's clear), might kill them? Doesn't that make the driver the moron?
    True, the driver may be in the wrong, however, his mistake will dent his car but you will be injured and possibly killed. It's defensive driving 101, expect the unexpected. It has to constantly be on your mind that there are people out their who either don't know the laws or just don't care and since they just got a very important text message with a picture of their friend making a funny face, watching where they are going isn't on their list of priorities and they run you over. Is it their fault? Entirely and without question it is the drivers fault, however, you face the consequences of his mistake.

    Take a similar scenario involving just cars, say a drunk driver is swerving down the road in his giant pickup and t-bones another driver killing him. Who's fault is it? Obviously the drunk, the other driver couldn't possibly have expected it, however, the guy is still dead.
    I think it's foolish for people to assume that just because there is a stop sign that the drunk is going to stop at it or to ride your bike as if the law is going to protect you from the 2 tons of metal driven by a ******.

    That is why I think those bikers are morons, because they put their lives in the hands of the irresponsible ******* in control of these vehicles. When I mount a bike I don't trust any motorist, and if I have to give up the right-of-way so those morons can go barreling down the road that is something I have to live with so I can make it home safely. When I get on a bike I accept that I may be stuck at the crossing for a few more minutes to wait for the drivers who feel the rules don't apply to them because they have a TV program that they simply can't miss or if I have to take the long way to avoid roads that don't give me the safety buffer I need I do that, if the driver wants to kill himself that is his prerogative, however he isn't taking me down with him. In the end, it doesn't matter what the law states, it doesn't matter who's fault it is, you are still dead because you put too much trust in your fellow man.

    And I think the opinions that make people not like cyclists is because of their flippant attitude about the pecking order of reality.
    Last edited by Vital_Signs; 08-19-12 at 09:03 PM.

  4. #4
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    True, the driver may be in the wrong, however, his mistake will dent his car but you will be injured and possibly killed. It's defensive driving 101, expect the unexpected. It has to constantly be on your mind that there are people out their who either don't know the laws or just don't care and since they just got a very important text message with a picture of their friend making a funny face, watching where they are going isn't on their list of priorities and they run you over. Is it their fault? Entirely and without question it is the drivers fault, however, you face the consequences of his mistake. ...
    Actually the most dangerous thing I do is to drive to the grocery store, on the weekends.

    You should try road biking a bit, and perhaps with some experience you'll understand the dangers.

  5. #5
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    ..... if I have to give up the right-of-way so those morons can go barreling down the road that is something I have to live with so I can make it home safely....
    but you don't. you're choosing to ride that way. Bicyclists can usually make it home safely without ever giving up the right of way except in extreme cases.

    I think some bike education may help you sort out this bicycling stuff. Ride only as far right as is safe. I strongly recommend a rear view mirror and some daytime visible LED lights.

    I do agree, some motorists are moronic when encountering bicyclists. that shouldn't keep you from riding your bike on the roads in florida, your bike is a vehicle in Florida just like the rest of the vehicles.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Junior Member Vital_Signs's Avatar
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    But this is mostly about road rage(though I understand we have gotten slightly off topic, which is partially my fault).

    I imagine a lot of you either own a car now or have owned a car, to those, what was your reaction when you saw a motorcyclist or even another car weaving through traffic, cutting people off with a bunch of near misses? Most people respond with something along the lines "That moron, he is going to get himself killed."
    I think there are a lot of people who get angry at people who put themselves in danger, and most people on cars will avoid bicyclists and obey the laws but grow annoyed that anyone would be willing to do something so reckless as drive a bicycle on the US roadway.
    I think it is a natural human characteristic to watch out for other people, which is why people will try and catch someone who starts to fall over when they are next to them.

    So, just keep that in mind that not everyone who is mad at bikers necessarily hates bikes, they probably just don't want to spend their day worrying about you and what they see as a perceived death wish. If you always want to look at it from their point of view; the point of view of someone who doesn't understand that you're not necessarily trying to kill yourself.

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    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Well, now you're a cyclist.

    Welcome to the club.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    I doubt that many people, or even a few people, are angered by someone else putting themselves in danger. This is what a person might say, look at that idiot with a death wish, to rationalize his anger or inappropriate actions but that's not the cause of it. Actually believing it (which I also doubt) they would feel morbid fascination maybe. Resentment that the other person is doing something that they couldn't do or wouldn't dare. But that's not where road rage comes from.

    OP, the reason Bek advised cycling education, and why I more bluntly suggested you do some road biking, is that you appear to have an untrained view of the dangers and methods of safe cycling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    Lets start with some background. Way back when, when I was young and still had my license(I lost it because I have epilepsy and got into a really bad accident, almost killed myself, etc) I played paintball, and if you've never played they build paintball fields out in the middle of nowhere. On the way there was this long, windy road that was well paved and a lot of cyclist would ride it every morning around the time I was on my way to the field. Unfortunately, there was only the road, there was no sidewalk and no bike lane. So, the cyclist would have to ride on the side of the road and would hug the line of the road to let cars go by.
    Not quite. the cyclists have a right to take the lane when it's unsafe, and drivers have to wait until it's safe to pass. There is no reason to ride on the sidewalk, even if there are no pedestrians.

    I don't know if this is the cause of rage of most drivers, but at the time, I would attribute my annoyance to two reasons:
    1. My safety, this was a winding road, in Florida, and you always have to vigilant because the drivers are morons, so when I had to move over to avoid the cyclists, if I was on a curve I wouldn't be able to see oncoming cars.
    2. I didn't understand why the cyclist would put themselves in that situation. I'd see these guys and wonder why they would consistently put their lives in my hands. Courtesy is hard wired into my mind(my parents raised me right, despite my attempts to thwart them when I was young and dumb ) and I would slow down or move around, try and keep them safe, but it got annoying because I was thinking "suppose I was a new driver and wasn't paying attention? All it takes is a text message(I hate people who can't get off their phone when driving) to send me flying into a group of bikers with nothing to protect them but a bowl of Styrofoam and form fitting pants."
    1. There are many blind curves. It's why the people driving them need to be responsible, and not expect the way to be clear.*
    2. If the cyclist is going to point B at the other end of the road, that's the only reason necessary to be there (the only exception being such roads as Interstate highways which often are restricted to bicycle use). We have as much right to the road on bicycles as in a motorized vehicle. If you come around a curve at the speed limit, and encounter a beater of a car limping along, it's only possible to slow down and be patient.

    So, my opinion of cyclists were these morons with a death wish or too much faith in their fellow man who put the burden of their safety into my hands and it was annoying. It was like those kids who think there is no better activity to do on a jungle gym than to nose dive off the monkey bars. I wanted to put every single biker in a corner to reflect on their actions because I didn't like being put in charge of the lives of those cyclists.
    Here's where your opinion is completely uninformed. I will elaborate later.*

    So, now that I am a cyclist myself, I do everything in my power to not put other drivers in that situation and the "share the road" T-shirts kind of annoy me becomes it comes off as pretentious: "I'm on a bike and don't feel like paying attention, so you should watch out for me because I am not going to watch out for you."
    Again, you're uninformed.*

    So, to summarize, I think some of the rage from drivers comes from the cyclists simply not paying attention and turning their point A to point B commute into a sick game of "dodge the moron." So, to everyone who has read this far, you're as responsible for those near misses as the "*******" is driving the car, so try and give the 2 ton metal object the right-of-way at all times.
    And once again, you're grossly uninformed.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    True, the driver may be in the wrong, however, his mistake will dent his car but you will be injured and possibly killed. It's defensive driving 101, expect the unexpected. It has to constantly be on your mind that there are people out their who either don't know the laws or just don't care and since they just got a very important text message with a picture of their friend making a funny face, watching where they are going isn't on their list of priorities and they run you over. Is it their fault? Entirely and without question it is the drivers fault, however, you face the consequences of his mistake.
    So you blame the victim of the bad driver, and not the bad driver. There is one of your stripes of misinformation.**

    Take a similar scenario involving just cars, say a drunk driver is swerving down the road in his giant pickup and t-bones another driver killing him. Who's fault is it? Obviously the drunk, the other driver couldn't possibly have expected it, however, the guy is still dead.
    I think it's foolish for people to assume that just because there is a stop sign that the drunk is going to stop at it or to ride your bike as if the law is going to protect you from the 2 tons of metal driven by a ******.
    So when you've been at stop signs, were you the person who waits until things are clear in every other direction before moving? Or did you sit there until everyone else was honking horns and waving you through? If you're the first there, and see someone else approaching, did you wait to see if the other driver would stop? From how far away? I'm sure you've ticked off a lot of other people by waiting forever to move when you had the right of way. But understand your victim blaming again.**

    That is why I think those bikers are morons, because they put their lives in the hands of the irresponsible ******* in control of these vehicles.
    That's sort of the idea about accepting the responsibility of driving in the first place and being on the road at all.*
    When I mount a bike I don't trust any motorist, and if I have to give up the right-of-way so those morons can go barreling down the road that is something I have to live with so I can make it home safely. When I get on a bike I accept that I may be stuck at the crossing for a few more minutes to wait for the drivers who feel the rules don't apply to them because they have a TV program that they simply can't miss or if I have to take the long way to avoid roads that don't give me the safety buffer I need I do that, if the driver wants to kill himself that is his prerogative, however he isn't taking me down with him. In the end, it doesn't matter what the law states, it doesn't matter who's fault it is, you are still dead because you put too much trust in your fellow man.
    Most of us don't trust any other driver on the road, be it motorist or cyclist. But it's no about living in the fear that you prescribe. Again you dive into victim blaming** in stead of being any sort of realistic.

    And I think the opinions that make people not like cyclists is because of their flippant attitude about the pecking order of reality.
    And so you show yourself no more than uninformed, and trying to educate those who are already knowledgeable on the matter. You're trying to use fear tactics and victim blaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    But this is mostly about road rage(though I understand we have gotten slightly off topic, which is partially my fault).
    You haven't gotten off your original topic, but you have indeed stuck not to road rage, but to being a fearful cyclist who thinks it's better to ride on the sidewalk than to demand the presence on the road allowed to ALL vehicles safely. Ultimately you say it's the victim's fault for being hit by an irresponsible person.**

    I imagine a lot of you either own a car now or have owned a car, to those, what was your reaction when you saw a motorcyclist or even another car weaving through traffic, cutting people off with a bunch of near misses? Most people respond with something along the lines "That moron, he is going to get himself killed."
    I think there are a lot of people who get angry at people who put themselves in danger, and most people on cars will avoid bicyclists and obey the laws but grow annoyed that anyone would be willing to do something so reckless as drive a bicycle on the US roadway.
    Yes: When I see someone behaving irresponsibly on the road, it irritates and even angers me. If someone being irresponsible causes a wreck, I blame nobody but the person being irresponsible. This goes beyond your tunnel vision of cyclists, and on to the people in other cars who are inconvenienced by having to stop and report the wreck, and even worse, by dying.** Riding on the road is not reckless. Again you show how misinformed you are.*

    I think it is a natural human characteristic to watch out for other people, which is why people will try and catch someone who starts to fall over when they are next to them.
    Thanks for the non sequitur remark. It so well contradicts much of the rest of what you've said. It's also a nearly instinctive reaction turned off by people who blame the person for falling in the first place, and such people as those who believe a cyclist is at fault for being hit by an irresponsible driver.

    So, just keep that in mind that not everyone who is mad at bikers necessarily hates bikes, they probably just don't want to spend their day worrying about you and what they see as a perceived death wish. If you always want to look at it from their point of view; the point of view of someone who doesn't understand that you're not necessarily trying to kill yourself.
    A lot of drivers are angry at being inconvenienced, not because they're fearful that the cyclist may have been run over by another driver. They want to drive as fast as their cars can handle the road (they believe -- which is why I see people nose-diving their cars at red lights, and still ending up half-way through the intersection), and anyone who drives at or even below the speed limit is evil for being inconvenient.There are also people who believe that only fuel taxes pay for roads, and therefore cyclists don't deserve to be there. Yet again you prove yourself uninformed.

    *When operating a motor vehicle, too many people (Vital_Signs included) assume the only responsibility for safety is of the people in or on that one vehicle. Too few understand their deadly potential while even driving at slow speeds through a residential area. In light of the potential for catastrophic damage to myself, my passengers (when I happen to have any), and everyone else around me, I refuse to do anything while driving but driving. I am aware that this is not how most other people think, but it is a reason people in other countries criticize Americans for so many luxury amenities in our cars to accommodate non-driving activities.
    As far as riding on the road, that is the best place for a cyclist. It's why the rules are so different for a cyclist than for a pedestrian. It is our demand to be treated with as much respect as any other vehicle operator on, as you said, US road ways.


    **If you believe the cyclist was asking to be hit, you're doing nothing more than victim blaming. According to your logic, if I drive like an idiot and hit someone, I'm to blame, but the person I hit should know better than to be on the road when I am. I mean, seriously: How can they not know that Moron Blinkie will come barreling down the road across the center line with the accelerator pedal on the floor, and absolutely no brakes? It's completely their fault for being there, too. MMhm ... It's my fault, but they get the blame.

    I really hate when I see such illogic from someone attempting to educate people. Fear is no state to maintain; it leads to ill-thought behavior. If you read these forums, you'll see many posts of aggressive drivers, close calls, people not paying attention to cyclists, bad cyclist behavior, etc. But none of it is declared reason to stay off the road. It's all reason to be more alert, more visible, to TAKE THE LANE, and generally be more responsible.

    Even before I was a cyclist, I've had reason to consider the safety of people on the road. I've seen a good bit of irresponsibly cyclists, but over all they're the exception. I have much more often seen motorists being deliberately dangerous towards cyclists. Hell, my boss even ran a coworker off the road once "as a joke" for being on a bike and not in a car. He can never understand the criticism he receives for his actions. I've seen too much to list here. In every case, I've witnessed a cyclist having to make a decision to keep riding, hold a safe distance from the curb or parked traffic, and wait until the jackwagon nearly killing them decides to pass. Never is the choice to ride on the sidewalk. Never is it to just not ride. The near death isn't because the cyclist is on the road, it's because someone decided to be a moron, or has severe anger control issues.

    And with your sweeping justifications in favor of motorists, you failed to mention pedestrians. With your logic, it's too dangerous to walk across a road, or in a parking lot for that matter. But you find riding a bicycle on the sidewalk a reasonable option, regardless of how it affects pedestrians.

    Before you try to keep blaming cyclists for drivers' actions, you need to be a bit better educated on how responsibility works. But then, you did say you're in Florida, which explains a lot.
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  10. #10
    Junior Member Vital_Signs's Avatar
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    Blinkie... I'm not even sure where to begin... It's like you are so insecure in the point you're trying to get across that you make up this long chain of bull**** covering so many topics going in so many directions that the person is unwilling to address each point thus you don't have to defend the points you make.

    Listen bro, come back with a single point you can fit on one side of an index card, then I will give you the time of day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    1. My safety, this was a winding road, in Florida, and you always have to vigilant because the drivers are morons, so when I had to move over to avoid the cyclists, if I was on a curve I wouldn't be able to see oncoming cars.
    Did you know your car has a brake pedal? You can use it to slow down and NOT move over into the oncoming lane when you couldn't see if it was safe to pass.

    2. I didn't understand why the cyclist would put themselves in that situation. I'd see these guys and wonder why they would consistently put their lives in my hands.
    Do you never cross a street on foot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    Blinkie... I'm not even sure where to begin... It's like you are so insecure in the point you're trying to get across that you make up this long chain of bull**** covering so many topics going in so many directions that the person is unwilling to address each point thus you don't have to defend the points you make.

    Listen bro, come back with a single point you can fit on one side of an index card, then I will give you the time of day.
    I didn't once divert from the course of your topic. But I can shorten it for you.

    A good bit of what you say blames people who are hit by irresponsible drivers, basically saying they should not have been where they were, and excusing the irresponsible driver. The gist of most of the rest is that the driver of a vehicle is only responsible for the safety of the vehicle and all passengers within. You even took offense with other vehicles on the road needing you to take their safety in mind (cyclists expecting reasonable treatment on the road). That is severely misguided.

    I simply expanded on those two points. If you can't see how, that problem lies in your court.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    So, to summarize, I think some of the rage from drivers comes from the cyclists simply not paying attention and turning their point A to point B commute into a sick game of "dodge the moron." So, to everyone who has read this far, you're as responsible for those near misses as the "*******" is driving the car, so try and give the 2 ton metal object the right-of-way at all times.
    So, to summarize, I think some of the rage from cyclists comes from the drivers simply not paying attention and turning their point A to point B commute into a sick game of 'dodge the moron." So, to all drivers who have read this far, you're as responsible for those near misses as the ******* is riding the bike, so try to give the bicycle the right of way how and when it is legally required.

    Fixed it for you. You of all people should realize that driving is a privilege. Mowing down cyclists is still against at least a few laws and most people like to keep driving- so like you, they try not to do it. Which is not to say that it doesn't happen (a lot and more than it needs to), but the two can coexist on most of the same roads. I ride every day and drive almost daily. My opinion of cyclists on the road when I'm driving is influenced/informed by my bicycle riding, but the experience of driving around cyclists (literally when safe to do so) isn't any different for me than it is for many or most drivers.

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    Junior Member Vital_Signs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benjdm View Post
    Did you know your car has a brake pedal? You can use it to slow down and NOT move over into the oncoming lane when you couldn't see if it was safe to pass.



    Do you never cross a street on foot?
    Yes, and when I crossed I always looked both ways and only crossed when it was safe. You make out like it's okay to dive out into traffic because it's against the law to hit a pedestrian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkie View Post
    I didn't once divert from the course of your topic. But I can shorten it for you.

    A good bit of what you say blames people who are hit by irresponsible drivers, basically saying they should not have been where they were, and excusing the irresponsible driver. The gist of most of the rest is that the driver of a vehicle is only responsible for the safety of the vehicle and all passengers within. You even took offense with other vehicles on the road needing you to take their safety in mind (cyclists expecting reasonable treatment on the road). That is severely misguided.

    I simply expanded on those two points. If you can't see how, that problem lies in your court.
    I honestly think cyclist shouldn't expect to be treated like cars on the road. We all want to and would hope to, however, expecting that drivers are going to behave responsibly and obey the laws on the road is borderline naive. You think all of those auto accidents are from people following the traffic laws?
    I am not blaming the victim, what I am saying is that you shouldn't look at an incident where an innocent person gets killed and think "that will never happen to me" and continue to believe that was an isolated incident and won't happen again because the law says it is illegal.

    The only reason I am telling you or anyone this is because I don't want to see anyone in a casket or in a wheelchair because some moron in a car came barreling down the road and they didn't have the time to react and get out of the way before they were hit.
    Quote Originally Posted by sgnl2nz View Post
    So, to summarize, I think some of the rage from cyclists comes from the drivers simply not paying attention and turning their point A to point B commute into a sick game of 'dodge the moron." So, to all drivers who have read this far, you're as responsible for those near misses as the ******* is riding the bike, so try to give the bicycle the right of way how and when it is legally required.

    Fixed it for you. You of all people should realize that driving is a privilege. Mowing down cyclists is still against at least a few laws and most people like to keep driving- so like you, they try not to do it. Which is not to say that it doesn't happen (a lot and more than it needs to), but the two can coexist on most of the same roads. I ride every day and drive almost daily. My opinion of cyclists on the road when I'm driving is influenced/informed by my bicycle riding, but the experience of driving around cyclists (literally when safe to do so) isn't any different for me than it is for many or most drivers.
    I think that people should be able to back up their opinion with a reason to demonstrate they understand the topic before they go voicing or acting upon their opinion. In other words, if you can't defend your opinion, then you have no right to one.
    So, I have no problem defending my opinion on this forum, because it is possible to have a wrong opinion.
    Last edited by Vital_Signs; 08-20-12 at 08:15 PM.

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    I'm sorry you refuse to read posts longer than what would fit an index card. But some things cannot be explained in so few words. This post will not be shortened to fit your inflexible, uninformed, misguided opinion about cyclists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    Yes, and when I crossed I always looked both ways and only crossed when it was safe. You make out like it's okay to dive out into traffic because it's against the law to hit a pedestrian.
    As drivers must only pass a cyclistwhen it is safe. Yet you'd say every time a pedestrian is hit, it'sbecause the pedestrian shouldn't be in the road. What about areaswhere there are no sidewalks? I live in an area where sidewalks don'texist very far from stores, and there are some people who, forwhatever reason, walk to work or shopping in that area. Almost all ofthem walk down the road responsibly: At the edge of the road, facingtraffic. But according to ALL of your previous statements regardingcyclists being struck, if any of these pedestrians ends up hit it'sbecause the pedestrian should not have been there in the first place.you'll say I've changed the topic. Contrarily, I have but provided aparallel example of the exact same thing.

    I honestly think cyclist shouldn't expect to be treated like cars on the road.
    Then don't ride your bicycle anywhere.Succumb to your health issues, lose hope, and rot away. No, I don'tmean that seriously. But since a cyclist can't be treated as avehicle while behaving as a vehicle, then a bicycle should not beused outside the driveway or the local park and not astransportation. You can't have it both ways.

    Bicycles can easily be ridden at a constant speed well over ten miles per hour. By someone in poor shape as myself (asthma, some hereditary heart issues that I won't go into, a messed up knee, and riding a bicycle for the first time in 15years), 15mph isn't a problem for over an hour at a time. That in no way is acceptable on a sidewalk, and at the very least partly why itis illegal. It also puts a fast-moving vehicle out of sight of traffic, except for short darts across cross-walks moving too quickly to properly check for turning cars, which puts the cyclist in much more danger of being hit than riding responsibly on the road. Shortly put, riding a bike on a sidewalk is unsafe. This leaves riding in the road, with traffic, as a responsibly operated vehicle, as the only safe and viable option.

    We all want to and would hope to, however, expecting that drivers are going to behave responsibly and obey the laws on the road is borderline naive. You think all of those auto accidents are from people following the traffic laws?
    I am not blaming the victim, what I am saying is that you shouldn't look at an incident where an innocent person gets killed and think "that will never happen to me" and continue to believe that was an isolated incident and won't happen again because the law says it is illegal.

    The only reason I am telling you or anyone this is because I don't want to see anyone in a casket or in a wheelchair because some moron in a car came barreling down the road and they didn't have the time to react and get out of the way before they were hit.
    You contradict yourself. Previously you've said that although it's the fault of the person driving badly (texting for example), the cyclist shouldn't have been in the road.You've said you don't understand why a cyclist would put themselves into a situation in which they could potentially be hit by a car, why they'd put their safety into the hands of others (namely, yours).You called cyclists morons for riding in the road ... because a bad driver may hit them. Yes: You are blaming the cyclsits for being hit. You are blaming the victims of bad drivers for doing what the should be doing, in stead of holding that the person being irresponsible should be held accountable.

    You need to realize that as someonejust getting into cycling that you do not know as much as you think you do. Stop trying to give emphatic advice based solely on when you were annoyed for being slowed down by some cyclists on a road full of blind curves. You're new to this. It's time to slow down a bit. It's time to read, learn, practice, and hopefully (if the funds and time are available to you), find a vehicular cyclist safety course. You'll come out a better cyclist for it. You likely won't see anyone in a casket or the hospital from riding the way they should ride. If youever see it, it'll be from a driver who did not treat the cyclist as another vehicle on the road.

    I think that people should beable to back up their opinion with a reason to demonstrate they understand the topic before they go voicing or acting upon their opinion. In other words, if you can't defend your opinion, then youhave no right to one.
    So, I have no problem defending myopinion on this forum, because it is possible to have a wrong opinion.
    There's a mistake here: While it is, as far as I am concerned, a basic right to be entitled to one's own opinion, it is only a right to have an informed opinion. Your opinion, which you are defending vehemently, is incredibly misinformed. You have some bad information from somewhere, and a lotof what you think is based on fear. Being terrified of what you aredoing is never a good idea. It leads to irrational behavior.

    That said, I am left curious. Since you have such a strong opinion against cyclists riding on the road, where, then, do you propose we can safely ride to our destinations?
    Last edited by Blinkie; 08-20-12 at 09:06 PM.
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    Junior Member Vital_Signs's Avatar
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    The original intent of this thread wasn't to discuss the best and safest way to ride a bike, I had intended to try and look at cyclist from the view of an ignorant(not stupid) driver and why they would think cyclist don't belong on the road.
    Blinkie, you are correct, I am ignorant of this topic and had originally not intended to get into this argument. So, even if I am wrong about what is and is not safe about riding a bike, it is still off-topic.
    And furthermore, if I don't know this stuff and I ride a bike, how well do you think drivers who don't ride know it? Because they don't cover it in drivers school, I believe they categorized bicycles as pedestrians IIRC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    The original intent of this thread wasn't to discuss the best and safest way to ride a bike, I had intended to try and look at cyclist from the view of an ignorant(not stupid) driver and why they would think cyclist don't belong on the road.
    Blinkie, you are correct, I am ignorant of this topic and had originally not intended to get into this argument. So, even if I am wrong about what is and is not safe about riding a bike, it is still off-topic.
    And furthermore, if I don't know this stuff and I ride a bike, how well do you think drivers who don't ride know it? Because they don't cover it in drivers school, I believe they categorized bicycles as pedestrians IIRC.
    And finally you say what you actually meant in your previous posts.

    There are many threads on BF discussing exactly what you just said. There have even been debates about how to best educate drivers, and the problematic fact is that it's all but impossible to effectively do so. You've mentioned living in Florida, which is a problematic State as far as cycling laws, and treatment of cyclists by law enforcement, are concerned.

    In stead of taking five posts of verbosity, argumentative assertions, and contradicting yourself frequently, you may just want to say or ask what you mean. It shouldn't take five posts and fifteen paragraphs to do so. As you demanded of me, make it fit on an index card ... bro.
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    Junior Member Vital_Signs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkie View Post
    And finally you say what you actually meant in your previous posts.

    There are many threads on BF discussing exactly what you just said. There have even been debates about how to best educate drivers, and the problematic fact is that it's all but impossible to effectively do so. You've mentioned living in Florida, which is a problematic State as far as cycling laws, and treatment of cyclists by law enforcement, are concerned.

    In stead of taking five posts of verbosity, argumentative assertions, and contradicting yourself frequently, you may just want to say or ask what you mean. It shouldn't take five posts and fifteen paragraphs to do so. As you demanded of me, make it fit on an index card ... bro.
    I frequent forums in which any backing down is viewed as a sign of weakness and the pack picks you apart, and old habits to die hard. So, I have to stop and backing down from an argument when I realize I am wrong isn't something I would normally do in a forum, if you met me in real life I would be more like I am now, however, when online I'm expected to live up to a certain amount of aggression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    Yes, and when I crossed I always looked both ways and only crossed when it was safe. You make out like it's okay to dive out into traffic because it's against the law to hit a pedestrian.
    You said you wondered why they consistently put their lives in drivers' hands. Everyone puts their lives in other drivers' hands. When you're crossing the street, or when you're walking along a sidewalk next to a road, etc.

    I honestly think cyclist shouldn't expect to be treated like cars on the road.
    You're free to lobby to change the traffic laws to what you think they should be. Until they get changed, I would suggest you start following the current laws. Especially the ones about safe passing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    And furthermore, if I don't know this stuff and I ride a bike, how well do you think drivers who don't ride know it? Because they don't cover it in drivers school, I believe they categorized bicycles as pedestrians IIRC.
    You should ask for your money back from that driver's school. The Florida Driver's manual certainly covers it:

    5.17 - Bicyclists

    In Florida, the bicycle is legally defined as a vehicle and has all of the privileges, rights and responsibilities to utilize the roadway as a motor vehicle operator does. Bicyclists on public roads (except for expressways) have the same rights and responsibilities as drivers of motorized vehicles. Respect the right-of-way of bicyclists because they are entitled to share the road with other drivers. Unlike motorists, bicyclists may also operate on sidewalks (except where prohibited by local ordinance), but must yield to pedestrians on sidewalks and in crosswalks. Riding against the flow of traffic in the adjacent traffic lane on a sidewalk is not illegal. However, it places cyclists where motorists entering or leaving the roadway at driveways and intersections do not expect wheeled traffic. As cyclists move faster than pedestrians, conflicts between motorists and sidewalk riders at driveways and intersection crosswalks can develop rapidly.

    5.17.1 Sharing the Road with a Bicycle

    Expect to find a bicyclist on all types of roads (except interstate highways), at all intersections and roundabouts, in all types of weather, and at all times of the day and night. Bicyclists may ride out in the travel lane for their own safety due to narrow roads, or to avoid obstacles or pavement hazards, or to prepare for a left turn. On roads without shoulders, or with cars parked along the right side, often the safest place for a bicyclist to ride is in the center of the lane. A bicyclist may use the full lane even while traveling substantially below the speed of traffic if the lane is too narrow for a car to safely pass a bicycle within the lane. Most travel lanes in Florida range from 10 to 12 wide and guidance indicates that a 14 lane is a width that allows safe sharing with most motor vehicles.
    + more. Start reading at page 29.

  21. #21
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    hehehe.

    I get it! "bicyclists get off the road, motorists are a bunch of morons" - read you loud and clear.

    Again, if the OP truly is now not driving and is a bicyclist - welcome to the club.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    Blinkie... I'm not even sure where to begin... It's like you are so insecure in the point you're trying to get across that you make up this long chain of bull**** covering so many topics going in so many directions that the person is unwilling to address each point thus you don't have to defend the points you make.

    Listen bro, come back with a single point you can fit on one side of an index card, then I will give you the time of day.
    Listen here comrade, this IS the single point - you never knew where to start. You were done in the logic/rational thought process before you ever finished your dingy first post here. Your only recourse is to change your name and maybe people will forget about the doofus who made such ignorant comments about bicycling to start this thread.

  23. #23
    Junior Member Vital_Signs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    hehehe.

    I get it! "bicyclists get off the road, motorists are a bunch of morons" - read you loud and clear.

    Again, if the OP truly is now not driving and is a bicyclist - welcome to the club.
    Finally, some gets it. Motorists are morons, so bicyclists need to give them a wide berth.

    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Listen here comrade, this IS the single point - you never knew where to start. You were done in the logic/rational thought process before you ever finished your dingy first post here. Your only recourse is to change your name and maybe people will forget about the doofus who made such ignorant comments about bicycling to start this thread.
    Read the entire thread before you post, you'll find you're leagues behind the conversation.
    Last edited by Vital_Signs; 08-21-12 at 11:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    Read the entire thread before you post, you'll find you're leagues behind the conversation.
    Sorry, you blew your wad on the first post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vital_Signs View Post
    Finally, some gets it. Motorists are morons, so bicyclists need to give them a wide berth.
    That's impossible to do. Unless the U.S. builds a whole lot of infrastructure in a big hurry, bicyclists and motorists need to share the same roads fairly often.

    Motorists who drive like morons need to be turned into non-motorists.

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