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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I seriously doubt many dutch feel suffer such inferiority when in front of traffic. I've seen high levels of equity with motor vehicle traffic exhibited by the Dutch. I just can't picture many dutch families feeding their kids such low-nutrition pablum.

    The greatest trick John Forester ever pulled, was convincing his cult the Dutch don't exist. Instead he confabulates about a country that doesn't even remotely resemble the Netherlands. Some of his ramblings:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiOy13TV22I#t=2068
    It's rather amusing really.


    When in traffic, Dutch people will generally ride towards the right side of the road, because it's the considerate thing to do, so they rarely find themselves in front of traffic In turn, drivers will give them more than enough space, and don't door them. Close passes are rare. Happens to me maybe a handful of times per year (=5000+ kilometer) There is however a crude concept of taking the lane when circumstances require it. One notable example is when mothers take the lane to shield their children while teaching them how to ride:

    11 Jan, ketting foto, vrouw en meisje op fiets..jpg
    Last edited by CarinusMalmari; 08-24-14 at 03:53 AM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    There's no national secret. The FHWA published speeds on mixed use paths and bike lanes: "According to these curves, only about 10% of bikeway users are satisfied with a speed of 9.5 mph, and only 25% with a speed of 10.5 mph." Quoted from Forester, Bicycle Transportation, second edition page 110, the MIT Press, 1994. Immediately following is the measurement of the speeds of cyclists commuting into work at a large aerospace center in Mountain View: "The slowest speed observed was 12 mph, the median speed was 16 mph, and the 85 percentile speed was 18.5 mph." This material has been long known and nobody has questioned it.
    First, the FHWA report (at least to the extent you quoted) does not report speeds on bike paths. It merely reports what speed people would like to obtain - with no indication as to whether or not they actually obtain those speeds.
    Second, you own statistics regarding Mountain View demonstrate that only a small minority of cyclists maintain a 20 mph speed. As someone with children, do you expect my children to be able to bike at that speed?

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    one of the many reasons i generally cycle in lane is because i want to make travel by single occupancy motor vehicle inconvenient. its bad for our society, bad for human health, and bad for the planet as a whole
    Ladies and gentleman, an ardent VC promoter concedes that even he can't figure out a way to ride in harmony with vehicular traffic. As someone who has been to cities with a extensive bike path networks, I can assure you that many people on bikes in those cities would have ridden in a car were it not for the bike paths (myself included). If Spare Wheel really wanted to get people out of cars, he would encourage bike paths as one method to achieve that goal. Such blatant hypocrisy!

    Quite simply, which country has more people using alternative transportation: The Netherlands with their horrific-to-bikers infrastructure or the United States where bikers don't have to worry about having those pesky bike paths? Hmm...

    Finally, I can't understand anyone who demands an infrastructure that must allow them to never have to compromise their speed during congested periods. That seems to be an absurd expectation, IMHO.
    Last edited by VTBike; 08-25-14 at 09:58 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTBike View Post
    Ladies and gentleman, an ardent VC promoter concedes that even he can't figure out a way to ride in harmony with vehicular traffic
    i am a supporter of car-free areas, traffic-calmed bike streets, door zone-free bike lanes, danish-style in road cycle tracks, and fully separated paths where appropriate.


    Finally, I can't understand anyone who demands an infrastructure that must allow them to never have to compromise their speed during congested periods.
    in contrast, to crappy north-american bike sidewalks facilities in europe are often designed to encourage fast and efficient cycling. they understand that it's not only about perceived safety -- it's also about making cycling more convenient than motorized couch riding.
    This is why motorists hate us, and why I've given up riding on the road...You should be ashamed yourself, and you should be reviled by cyclists everywhere.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    i am a supporter of car-free areas, traffic-calmed bike streets, door zone-free bike lanes, danish-style in road cycle tracks, and fully separated paths where appropriate.
    My apologies. I had not understood that you were a supporter of separated paths. Many VC advocates are not and I mistakenly lumped you into that group.

  6. #81
    Senior Member jgadamski's Avatar
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    It's a shame we engage in this 'how many angels can fit on the head of a pin' discussions pitting VC against cycling infrastructure. We live in a world that requires a strong knowledge of VC to survive as we work towards a world that creates the infrastructure that encourages those who are fearful of operating among high speed traffic to ultimately join the fold. Once that segment feels comfortable cycling at a higher level, we can start to enjoy those benefits of cycling, both as individuals and as communities.
    Reading Effective Cycling provided a primer of skills and knowledge that I did not have, and I learned enough to keep me alive for the past 20 years of street riding that I have not had a collision with a motor vehicle. The more I applied VC concepts, my conflicts with autos and drivers diminished. For that I would thank John F.
    However..... I cannot accept the status quo, facility wise. I want to see more cyclists using bikes to accomplish their daily activities. Jobs, school, shopping, family. The benefits are well understood. We have never fought a war over fitness like the wars we fight over oil. The dollars supporting the quest for energy rob communities of their wealth. The collateral costs of using cars over human power are well discussed.
    I do not want to argue with John F. He seems so zealous and entrenched in his views, it would be a fools errand. He is welcome to believe what he does. I do want to see the US embrace at least partially the desire to move away from car-centrism to a more sane and productive means of transportation.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarinusMalmari View Post
    ...

    When in traffic, Dutch people will generally ride towards the right side of the road, because it's the considerate thing to do, so they rarely find themselves in front of traffic In turn, drivers will give them more than enough space, and don't door them. Close passes are rare. Happens to me maybe a handful of times per year (=5000+ kilometer) There is however a crude concept of taking the lane when circumstances require it. One notable example is when mothers take the lane to shield their children while teaching them how to ride:
    I don't presume to tell the Dutch what to do in the Netherlands; the relevant point for Americans is to realize that painting door zone bike lanes or even copying Dutch facilities here doesn't make motorists here believe that bicyclists can have the right of way and that motorists ever need to yield to them.

    When I tried the bike lanes in Philadelphia, turning drivers did not yield - they turn in front of bicyclists and tell them to get out of the way. In the US, door zone lanes make bicyclists harder to see than using the lane in 10mph (16kph) traffic, and American drivers do door bicyclists. Before these badly designed bike lanes were installed, drivers were not as angry at bicyclists avoiding door zones and turning cars by using the regular lane.

    If bicycling is safer in the Netherlands (which I am sure is true), it is because bicyclists are treated as people and motorists are punished for hitting them. US bike facilities are designed and installed by motorists, so I don't think copying Dutch facilities in the US will work without also enforcing similar laws (a topic I rarely hear addressed).

    You might want to check out this post about laws in 5 states + Washington DC Court decisions - very different from Japan (my past experience) or what I read of the Netherlands. The DC court has created strict liability for bicyclists.

    https://medium.com/@ShaneFarthing/th...n-561c4c2ea191
    Badly designed lanes can't fix this.
    Last edited by AngeloDolce; 11-04-14 at 02:10 PM.

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