Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 80
  1. #1
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,798
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    franklin-and-forester-quotes-in-a-dutch-context

    Interesting blog in reference to VC Spokesmen obstructionism irt to bicycling facilities

    https://departmentfortransport.wordp...dutch-context/

  2. #2
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,571
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Too funny... I couldn't help but contrast my typical stateside cycling to the cycling I did in Oulo... which was anything but vehicular and quite pleasant.... verses constantly having to "fight" for space on the road when I ride in a vehicular fashion.

    Just for illustration, here is the Oulu video I made of the wonderful cycling network they have. Bear in mind that this was done using a low res Kodak camera, hand held while I rode the bike.


  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,664
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    verses constantly having to "fight" for space on the road when I ride in a vehicular fashion.
    if you are fighting for space you are doing it wrong. i don't fight for space...i just...erm...take the lane.

    interestingly enough today i had a conversation with a lady in a parking enforcement vehicle about my lane taking. i was in the lane avoiding the clusterfrack that is the broadway cycle track*. she screamed at me several times to go ride in the bike lane [sic]. at the next light i pulled up next to her and calmly informed her that in oregon i have every right to take the lane if i ride at the "normal speed of traffic". she became irate and began shouting about bike licensing (e.g. you "people" should have licenses). i then informed her that bike licenses do not work but she assured me that bike licensing was the answer.

    * i am not opposed to cycle tracks per se. for example, the sellwood bridge cycle track is a fine facility.

    PS: pdx motorists are so accustomed to VC cycling that its been well over a year since i had to "educate" a misinformed motorist about my right to take the lane. critical mass, baby.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-03-13 at 12:39 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,664
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i ride in a VC manner most of the time and i disagree with most of JF's quotes.

    nevertheless, i should point out that the correlation of mode share with segregated infrastructure is clearly not causal in the case of holland. in fact, mode share is far more closely associated with prioritization of motor vehicle traffic and the lack or presence of traffic calming.

    i also more or less agree with franklin's statement about speed. if you are going to ride in a VC manner a higher speed is quite possibly safer.

    a sprint speed of 20
    20 mph is not a sprint speed. any reasonably fit cyclist on a decent bike should be able to maintain 20 mph on a flat for a significant period of time. one of the things that irritates me about north american fans of "mythic" segregated europe is the fixation with riding sloooooowly. for example, in pdx traffic planners are constantly complaining about cyclist speed. this is in stark contrast to "real" segregated europe where there has been a push to build facilities that accommodate high speed cycling.

  5. #5
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    YEG
    My Bikes
    See my sig...
    Posts
    25,956
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    I would disagree on the reasonably fit cyclist / decent bike / 32 kmh figure that was thrown out... it just doesn't seem to be reflected in the real world.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,664
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    it just doesn't seem to be reflected in the real world.
    i agree but i think this has more to do with caution than capability.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,069
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Interesting blog in reference to VC Spokesmen obstructionism irt to bicycling facilities

    https://departmentfortransport.wordp...dutch-context/
    Each picture does nothing to demonstrate its caption. However, several pictures demonstrate other principles, such as that in many points in the Dutch system the traffic speed has to be slow. Furthermore, there is no evidence that either I (Forester), or Franklin, is opposed to mass cycling. We are opposed to systems that limit cyclists to longer trip times than would be accomplished by a competent cyclist, which is the typical case of the Dutch system.

  8. #8
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,571
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    if you are fighting for space you are doing it wrong. i don't fight for space...i just...erm...take the lane.

    interestingly enough today i had a conversation with a lady in a parking enforcement vehicle about my lane taking. i was in the lane avoiding the clusterfrack that is the broadway cycle track*. she screamed at me several times to go ride in the bike lane [sic]. at the next light i pulled up next to her and calmly informed her that in oregon i have every right to take the lane if i ride at the "normal speed of traffic". she became irate and began shouting about bike licensing (e.g. you "people" should have licenses). i then informed her that bike licenses do not work but she assured me that bike licensing was the answer.

    * i am not opposed to cycle tracks per se. for example, the sellwood bridge cycle track is a fine facility.

    PS: pdx motorists are so accustomed to VC cycling that its been well over a year since i had to "educate" a misinformed motorist about my right to take the lane. critical mass, baby.
    Meanwhile the guy with the biggest vehicle also tries to Take the Lane. Guess who wins... or have you not studied the physics of 4000 lb vehicles vrs 200 lb bike and rider? Don't bother saying "but the law says" while there are countless videos that show that some motorists don't give a hoot about what the law says. (and will tell you that to your face)

  9. #9
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,571
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Each picture does nothing to demonstrate its caption. However, several pictures demonstrate other principles, such as that in many points in the Dutch system the traffic speed has to be slow. Furthermore, there is no evidence that either I (Forester), or Franklin, is opposed to mass cycling. We are opposed to systems that limit cyclists to longer trip times than would be accomplished by a competent cyclist, which is the typical case of the Dutch system.
    And yet oddly when motor vehicles crowd the roads they too have to slow down... Just like when there are so many cyclists that they fill the bikeways. This same slowing effect also occurs when there there is a crowd of pedestrians all moving in the same direction at the same time. (try reading up on queuing theory in traffic engineering... or just look at any major freeway during peak use hours)

    Your vision of cyclists moving at some critical high speed only works when cyclists are few and far between... in areas where cyclists are rare, such as in the USA.
    Last edited by genec; 05-03-13 at 02:12 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Each picture does nothing to demonstrate its caption. However, several pictures demonstrate other principles, such as that in many points in the Dutch system the traffic speed has to be slow. Furthermore, there is no evidence that either I (Forester), or Franklin, is opposed to mass cycling. We are opposed to systems that limit cyclists to longer trip times than would be accomplished by a competent cyclist, which is the typical case of the Dutch system.
    Except that it isn't. As you've been told, and as has been proven, several times. (perhaps because the Dutch are real bona fide competent cyclists, in contrast to people who can't even signal without losing control of their bike)

    You're like a cork that one pulls under water. Every time it's released, it immediately pops back to the surface.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,664
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    We are opposed to systems that limit cyclists to longer trip times than would be accomplished by a competent cyclist, which is the typical case of the Dutch system.
    Because segregated infrastructure is by definition space constrained it can become slowest-common-denominator transport. In fact, in some european cities complaints about slowness and over-crowding by cyclists has led to the removal of cycle tracks and the installation of 2 meter wide bike lanes (where there is clearly room to pass).

    While the more fanatical proponents of segregated infrastructure like to pretend that trip lengths in North America would be similar if only we have a network of Dutch style cycle paths, all available data (and common sense) indicates that its different here. north american cyclists travel greater distances and at higher rates of speeds not because they are "enthusiasts" but because they do not live in a small city with a warren of medieval to victorian era streets.

    arguably the most bike friendly major city in europe:
    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=amste...lands&t=h&z=13

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Amste...therlands&z=12

    note how outside of the incredibly compact city center AMS is surrounded by farms and fully separated communities.

    arguably the most bike friendly major city in the usa:
    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=portl...h,+Oregon&z=13

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=portl...h,+Oregon&z=12

    grid streets (and apart from forest park) far more sprawl. ironically portland is a city with one of the strictest land-use policies in the usa.


    most american cities look like this:

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Atlan...,+Georgia&z=12
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-03-13 at 03:15 PM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,664
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Meanwhile the guy with the biggest vehicle also tries to Take the Lane. Guess who wins... or have you not studied the physics of 4000 lb vehicles vrs 200 lb bike and rider?
    i've been riding for transportation for decades and i have yet to lose.
    moreover, you do you realize that the above comment reads exactly like comments posted in USAnian newspapers by motorists who are "stressed" at having to share the lane.

    while there are countless videos that show that some motorists don't give a hoot about what the law says. (and will tell you that to your face)
    videos on you-tube are not reality. the way so many advocates of separated infrastructure in north america dramatically exaggerate the risks of cycling is incredibly counterproductive. i absolutely support infrastructure for the kinderen and omas -- just paint an occasional sharrow for me.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-03-13 at 03:13 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,664
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Except that it isn't. As you've been told, and as has been proven, several times.
    And why is it that average cycling speeds in Holland are like some closely-guarded national secret?

  14. #14
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,571
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    i've been riding for transportation for decades and i have yet to lose.
    moreover, you do you realize that the above comment reads exactly like comments posted in USAnian newspapers by motorists who are "stressed" at having to share the lane.
    Agreed. And bear in mind that all I am doing is simply tell you what those types of motorists have told me.

    Sure, few cyclists lose in those situations... because good cyclists maintain bail out room and use it. In fact the Road1 course I took years ago, being able to bail out of certain situations was strongly emphasized. But the facts of physics are still undeniable.

    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post

    videos on you-tube are not reality. the way so many advocates of separated infrastructure in north america dramatically exaggerate the risks of cycling is incredibly counterproductive. i absolutely support infrastructure for the kinderen and omas -- just paint an occasional sharrow for me.
    Right, not reality, and yet somehow a situation was captured.

    As far as the sharrow thing... sure, there are the elite few that can take on any situation... fat lot that does to encourage cycling overall.

  15. #15
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,571
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    And why is it that average cycling speeds in Holland are like some closely-guarded national secret?
    Are they... OK quick test... what are average cycling speeds in America... find the document to prove it.

    OOPS... no studies done... nothing but anecdotes available. So much for national secrets.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,664
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    As far as the sharrow thing... fat lot that does to encourage cycling overall.

    a few sharrows alone...probably not much...but carpeting streets with sharrows in the context of a larger system is another matter entirely. likewise 500 meters of expensive cycle track does f*** all on its own. and imo many advocates for segregated infrastructure are just as extreme as the foaming at the mouth VC strawman that is the basis of this post.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    And why is it that average cycling speeds in Holland are like some closely-guarded national secret?
    They aren't - you just try to make it look that way.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,069
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Except that it isn't. As you've been told, and as has been proven, several times. (perhaps because the Dutch are real bona fide competent cyclists, in contrast to people who can't even signal without losing control of their bike)

    You're like a cork that one pulls under water. Every time it's released, it immediately pops back to the surface.
    Had you paid attention to the pictures presented by a bikeway advocate in post that opens this thread, you would have realized that every time a few cyclists were shown together, the speeds had to be very low. And posting this lie about American cyclists being unable to signal without losing control of their bike is just another of your nasty habits.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Because segregated infrastructure is by definition space constrained it can become slowest-common-denominator transport. In fact, in some european cities complaints about slowness and over-crowding by cyclists has led to the removal of cycle tracks and the installation of 2 meter wide bike lanes (where there is clearly room to pass).

    While the more fanatical proponents of segregated infrastructure like to pretend that trip lengths in North America would be similar if only we have a network of Dutch style cycle paths, all available data (and common sense) indicates that its different here. north american cyclists travel greater distances and at higher rates of speeds not because they are "enthusiasts" but because they do not live in a small city with a warren of medieval to victorian era streets.

    arguably the most bike friendly major city in europe:
    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=amste...lands&t=h&z=13

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Amste...therlands&z=12

    note how outside of the incredibly compact city center AMS is surrounded by farms and fully separated communities.

    arguably the most bike friendly major city in the usa:
    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=portl...h,+Oregon&z=13

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=portl...h,+Oregon&z=12

    grid streets (and apart from forest park) far more sprawl. ironically portland is a city with one of the strictest land-use policies in the usa.


    most american cities look like this:

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Atlan...,+Georgia&z=12
    Gross manipulation. Go back and check all the links I provided in that other thread.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Had you paid attention to the pictures presented by a bikeway advocate in post that opens this thread, you would have realized that every time a few cyclists were shown together, the speeds had to be very low. And posting this lie about American cyclists being unable to signal without losing control of their bike is just another of your nasty habits.
    Mwaha! "this lie"!

    Anyway, your confusion about when and where one can ride fast is really disturbing. Do yourself the favour of analyzing the situations depicted. If that, in combination with the myriad of informations I and others have provided you with, doesn't enlighten you, you really are beyond any hope.

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,069
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Are they... OK quick test... what are average cycling speeds in America... find the document to prove it.

    OOPS... no studies done... nothing but anecdotes available. So much for national secrets.
    There's no national secret. The FHWA published speeds on mixed use paths and bike lanes: "According to these curves, only about 10% of bikeway users are satisfied with a speed of 9.5 mph, and only 25% with a speed of 10.5 mph." Quoted from Forester, Bicycle Transportation, second edition page 110, the MIT Press, 1994. Immediately following is the measurement of the speeds of cyclists commuting into work at a large aerospace center in Mountain View: "The slowest speed observed was 12 mph, the median speed was 16 mph, and the 85 percentile speed was 18.5 mph." This material has been long known and nobody has questioned it.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    4,069
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Mwaha! "this lie"!

    Anyway, your confusion about when and where one can ride fast is really disturbing. Do yourself the favour of analyzing the situations depicted. If that, in combination with the myriad of informations I and others have provided you with, doesn't enlighten you, you really are beyond any hope.
    You appear to be trying to argue that the pictures showing more than a few cyclists are not typical at all, are showing cyclists not riding for a transportational purpose, so that therefore the obvious very slow cycling has nothing to do with transportation, only to do with what -- recreation? The context of this discussion is transportational cycling, with, in the American context, emphasis on the cycling to and from work. Your pictures do not show fast cycling in the context of employment areas.

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    You appear to be trying to argue that the pictures showing more than a few cyclists are not typical at all, are showing cyclists not riding for a transportational purpose, so that therefore the obvious very slow cycling has nothing to do with transportation, only to do with what -- recreation? The context of this discussion is transportational cycling, with, in the American context, emphasis on the cycling to and from work. Your pictures do not show fast cycling in the context of employment areas.
    Clueless.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,664
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Gross manipulation. Go back and check all the links I provided in that other thread.
    and i also posted the zoomed out images that show the urban periphery. i guess satellite images are gross distortions!

    the unswerving belief in the power of segregated infrastructure to magically increase mode share does not fit the timeline of the dutch cycling resurgence; and nor does it explain rotterdam -- the ugly duckling of the dutch cycling miracle. for the record, i think it helps but that other factors are equally (or even more) important.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 05-03-13 at 07:05 PM.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,664
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Clueless.
    you might want to try cycling in a USAnian cycling city during rush hour before you start tossing ad hominems around.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •