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  1. #401
    . botto's Avatar
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    while you like to regurgitate numbers that you've read, i've actually lived in some of these places.

    comparing bogota with buenos aires reveals how ignorant you are.

  2. #402
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Comprehension, botto, comprehension! I wasn't comparing bogota and buenos aires, i referred to Dutch cycling having similar goals as Bogota's system -to facilitate riding in ages 8 to 80. I didn't compare bogota to buenos aires, yes, two very different cities. so true.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekologist
    hardly! the dutch ride in droves, save money, stay healthy and vital as a result of a build up of cycling-specific infrastructure that includes portions of that infrastructure separating bikes from car traffic and considers bicycle movements preferentially at intersections.

    the "eight to 80" population, as they like to say in Bogota, the Netherlands.
    that was part of the joke some people missed- i was describing cities with progressive planning for bicyclists as if they were all part of the netherlands!

    bogota and buenos aires -like progressive cities around the globe - have bike master plans and bicycle networks implemented to make it easier for people to move around those cities by bike.


    What, pray tell, does your appraisal of my ignorance have to do with the facts about dutch cycling, or with my referencing a recent Economist article that detailed buenos aires' new bicycle programming quintupling ridership there, or mention of Gil Penalosa's founding dictates of Bogota's bicycle facilities network?





    oh, that's right - YOU wanted to point out bogota isn't in holland.

    a sideline, Bogota's cycloruta network described... a system of bikeways that has allowed this megalopolis in South America to double its ridership in a decade. http://www.c40cities.org/c40cities/b...s-in-the-world

    and snapshots of some of their cyclorutas..bogota ciclo.jpg and another bogota_cicloruta.jpg nice bridge! bogota bridge.jpg
    Last edited by Bekologist; 03-23-13 at 06:10 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  3. #403
    . botto's Avatar
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    i repeat: you read and regurgitate, while i actually live there. cherry pick all of the images that you like, the ciclorutas are ****.

  4. #404
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    is that how you feel about dutch cycling infrastructure? or are you living in bogota, the netherlands? or buenos aires - which, Botto, Which?

    despite your geographical confusion, it's very clear where you're coming from.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  5. #405
    . botto's Avatar
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    i've lived in NL and i am now in bogota.

    as for geographic confusion? have you been to either?

    doubt it.

  6. #406
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    oh, i'd bring a bike and enjoy both, but have long ago committed to being a regionalist. maybe in my idle years...

    as to both bogota, Netherlands and Bogota, Columbia -

    in the opinion of botto, the cycling infrastructure in both places, ****s.

    How populist of you to think that way!

    Typisch VC aspersions, rarely heard outside the walter mitty "toot toot- I'm a car" cycling club and its aspirants.

    As to the Dutch -
    Quote Originally Posted by bek
    "the dutch ride in droves, save money, stay healthy and vital as a result of a build up of cycling-specific infrastructure that includes portions of that infrastructure separating bikes from car traffic and considers bicycle movements preferentially at intersections.

    the "eight to 80" population......"
    (city and country reference redacted in case the mock city reference continues to throw anyone)
    Last edited by Bekologist; 03-23-13 at 09:59 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    what most cycling utopians seem to forget, or disregard, is the fact that bike lanes - at least those in NL - are shared with mopeds/scooters.

    trust me, they do not ride at safe speeds, nor do they ride with care.
    I guess that's why nobody cares to ride a bicycle in the Netherlands.

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    oh, i'd bring a bike and enjoy both, but have long ago committed to being a regionalist. maybe in my idle years...

    as to both bogota, Netherlands and
    Bogota, Columbia -

    in the opinion of botto, the cycling infrastructure in both places, ****s.

    How populist of you to think that way!

    Typisch VC aspersions, rarely heard outside the walter mitty "toot toot- I'm a car" cycling club and its aspirants.

    As to the Dutch - (city and country reference redacted in case the mock city reference continues to throw anyone)
    is that a residence hall at colUmbia university?

  9. #409
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    is that a residence hall at colUmbia university?
    apparently, nuanced humor isn't a strong suit!

    geographic muddlement aside, botto, did you read the article from last weeks' Economist about the bicycling network in Buenos Aires, Holland quintupling ridership?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  10. #410
    . botto's Avatar
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    apparently geography (as well as spelling) isn't your strong suit, sparky.

    and no, i didn't read the economist. unlike you, i have a life.

  11. #411
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Dang, i so need to invest in a spell exchequer.

    "What kind of nanny?" is my only remaining question.



    look! a columbian cycloruta! bogota bridge.jpg Wait! maybe these are in Holland? bogota ciclo.jpg
    Last edited by Bekologist; 03-23-13 at 09:03 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #412
    . botto's Avatar
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    thanks for proving what i we all suspected: there's nothing worse than an ignorance mixed with arrogance.

  13. #413
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    well, at least Buenos Aires was able to quintuple ridership.

    Man, it's nice to stay abreast with current events, even though I'm not sure if that city is in Holland.

    economist in print, March 2, 2013 - Urban transport in Latin America- better by bici

    Quote Originally Posted by economist mag
    Following in the tyre-tracks of Bogotá and Mexico City, the regional pioneers, the latest capital to boost the bike is Buenos Aires........... Launched barely two years ago..........La Nación, a newspaper, found that a 7km journey to or from the city centre at rush hour took nearly twice as long by bus or car as by bike
    Last edited by Bekologist; 03-24-13 at 07:22 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #414
    . botto's Avatar
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    read and regurgitate. read and regurgitate.

    try getting out of your basement, off your flabby ass, and experience the real world one of these days.

  15. #415
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    off my flabby ass? my, what rancor. the 'real world?'



    this was all because i misspelled words for comedic effect? or is that affect?

    where are these? bogota ciclo.jpgBogota, greater Amsterdam, Delft, New York City, Buenos Aires? bogota_cicloruta.jpg Does it even matter?


    Someone's affected by this thread, and it isn't me. i rather enjoy the desparate feints and paltry criticisms of facilitated cycling networks by aspirants to the the walter mittey "toot toot" cycling club.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 03-24-13 at 08:50 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  16. #416
    Yabba-Dabba-Doo! AlmostTrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    read and regurgitate. read and regurgitate.

    try getting out of your basement, off your flabby ass, and experience the real world one of these days.
    Do comments like this make you feel better about yourself? Either way, I'm very sad for you.
    Have Bike, Will Travel

  17. #417
    Senior Member Chicago Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    read and regurgitate. read and regurgitate.

    try getting out of your basement, off your flabby ass, and experience the real world one of these days.
    Remarkable comments, coming from someone with more than twice as many comments on BF as Bekologist, despite being on the board two years less.

    While his enthusiasm for infrastructure may get monotonous, at least Bekologist is being positive and refrains from this kind of childish comment, even in his frequent sparring with John Forester.

    Botto is right in his comment above about scooters and mopeds on NL cycle tracks, they are widely regarded as a noisy nuisance at best, sometimes a real danger. But so what? Dutch cycling infrastructure is not 'utopia'? Who ever said that it was? Certainly Dutch cyclists have not deserted their national network of paths due to this issue.

    From his embittered commentary here, Botto appears to be a cynic, someone who, as Oscar Wilde put it, 'knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.'
    I never think I have hit hard, unless it rebounds.

    - Dr Samuel Johnson

  18. #418
    . botto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlmostTrick View Post
    Do comments like this make you feel better about yourself? Either way, I'm very sad for you.

    obviously your comments make you feel better about yourself.

  19. #419
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    "Istanbul (not Constantinople).

    Even old New York was once New Amsterdam."
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #420
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    Right, well I have only glanced at the conversation above...a bit dodgy getting in the midst of this!
    I do have some opinion I shared in a few recent posts, that I thought I'd share here. I moved.

    http://youaintgotjack.blogspot.nl/20...t-bicycle.html

    http://youaintgotjack.blogspot.nl/20...make-lane.html

  21. #421
    Senior Member mr_pedro's Avatar
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    I grew up in Amsterdam and I have now experienced biking in Baltimore for a while. I can tell you that the biggest difference in riding in both countries is not the infrastructure. Sure NL as many more dedicated bike lanes, but in the cities there are also plenty of spots where you have to deal with traffic in the regular lanes.

    The biggest difference is in the heads of drivers. In NL there is simply no discussion on if bicycles have a place in traffic or not, and when a driver has to wait for a bicycle it does so with the same amount of patience as if it was a motorized vehicle that it has to wait for.

  22. #422
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
    I grew up in Amsterdam and I have now experienced biking in Baltimore for a while. I can tell you that the biggest difference in riding in both countries is not the infrastructure. Sure NL as many more dedicated bike lanes, but in the cities there are also plenty of spots where you have to deal with traffic in the regular lanes.

    The biggest difference is in the heads of drivers. In NL there is simply no discussion on if bicycles have a place in traffic or not, and when a driver has to wait for a bicycle it does so with the same amount of patience as if it was a motorized vehicle that it has to wait for.
    Bingo... somehow, in America, people inside cars feel that they are more important than people outside of cars... but the fact is, they are all people.

    It seems in America, we need to remind the people inside cars that they are just like the people outside cars.

  23. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
    I grew up in Amsterdam and I have now experienced biking in Baltimore for a while. I can tell you that the biggest difference in riding in both countries is not the infrastructure. Sure NL as many more dedicated bike lanes, but in the cities there are also plenty of spots where you have to deal with traffic in the regular lanes.

    The biggest difference is in the heads of drivers. In NL there is simply no discussion on if bicycles have a place in traffic or not, and when a driver has to wait for a bicycle it does so with the same amount of patience as if it was a motorized vehicle that it has to wait for.
    I don't doubt that you're right about the different attitudes, but that difference is not coincidal. 40-45 years ago, the death toll on Dutch roads and streets was as high as in the USA. The Dutch decided to do something about it: Infrastructure and, of course, education.

  24. #424
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    I don't doubt that you're right about the different attitudes, but that difference is not coincidal. 40-45 years ago, the death toll on Dutch roads and streets was as high as in the USA. The Dutch decided to do something about it: Infrastructure and, of course, education.
    The USA decided to do something about it too... they raised speed limits, and mandated seatbelts and airbags and continued with the right on red

    So there... too bad if you happen to be outside the car.

  25. #425
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    Originally Posted by mr_pedro

    I grew up in Amsterdam and I have now experienced biking in Baltimore for a while. I can tell you that the biggest difference in riding in both countries is not the infrastructure. Sure NL as many more dedicated bike lanes, but in the cities there are also plenty of spots where you have to deal with traffic in the regular lanes.

    The biggest difference is in the heads of drivers. In NL there is simply no discussion on if bicycles have a place in traffic or not, and when a driver has to wait for a bicycle it does so with the same amount of patience as if it was a motorized vehicle that it has to wait for.



    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    I don't doubt that you're right about the different attitudes, but that difference is not coincidal. 40-45 years ago, the death toll on Dutch roads and streets was as high as in the USA. The Dutch decided to do something about it: Infrastructure and, of course, education.
    History has a longer and more tangled reach than the simple explanation provided by Mr. Hagen. One of the causes for the Dutch attitude toward bicycle traffic goes back to the development of mass commuter transportation, which the Dutch missed. Another of the causes goes back to medieval times, for the medieval city patterns which enabled the Dutch to forgo mass commuter transportation. Another, and more recent, cause is the relatively late Dutch adoption of mass motoring.

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