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  1. #426
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    how medieval.

    Simply pre-car isn't enough, it must be 'medieval' so as to exclude New Amsterdam and Boston from consideration of cities laid out prior to the motorcar.

    Such is the world of revisionist bicycling according to the 'road sneak' cyclists club founder.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-03-13 at 05:11 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    how medieval.

    Simply pre-car isn't enough, it must be 'medieval' so as to exclude New Amsterdam and Boston from consideration of cities laid out prior to the motorcar.

    Such is the world of revisionist bicycling according to the 'road sneak' cyclists club founder.
    I did not say that medieval was the only required characteristic. The general categories are walking city, rail transit city, and automotive city. Medieval cities are walking cities.

  3. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    i've lived in NL and i am now in bogota.

    as for geographic confusion? have you been to either?

    doubt it.
    *Swooosh*

  4. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    History has a longer and more tangled reach than the simple explanation provided by Mr. Hagen. One of the causes for the Dutch attitude toward bicycle traffic goes back to the development of mass commuter transportation, which the Dutch missed. Another of the causes goes back to medieval times, for the medieval city patterns which enabled the Dutch to forgo mass commuter transportation. Another, and more recent, cause is the relatively late Dutch adoption of mass motoring.
    The average commute in the Netherlands is only very slightly shorter than in the USA. Average commutes in the industrialized-developed parts of the world are rather similar.


    Edit: I would have liked to be able to speak of "median" for "average", but I can't at present find the numbers. As I remember the median numbers, they're even closer.

    Hey, one more edit: I just remembered this one http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...-rate-for.html

    I've posted it here before, of course. Of course.
    Last edited by hagen2456; 04-03-13 at 06:42 PM.

  5. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    The average commute in the Netherlands is only very slightly shorter than in the USA. Average commutes in the industrialized-developed parts of the world are rather similar.


    Edit: I would have liked to be able to speak of "median" for "average", but I can't at present find the numbers. As I remember the median numbers, they're even closer.

    Hey, one more edit: I just remembered this one http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...-rate-for.html

    I've posted it here before, of course. Of course.
    The item posted has no information about the commuting distance, and hence is irrelevant to the discussion.

  6. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    The item posted has no information about the commuting distance, and hence is irrelevant to the discussion.
    Predictable. Yet, you spoke of all those medieval cities etc. etc. etc.

    AND you don't even start to consider the fact of commuting distances. Verily, the emperor is naked.

  7. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Predictable. Yet, you spoke of all those medieval cities etc. etc. etc.

    AND you don't even start to consider the fact of commuting distances. Verily, the emperor is naked.
    Sprawl: http://www.copenhagenize.com/

  8. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Ah, so you wanted the commuting distance numbers? Voilą:

    Holland: http://www-sre.wu.ac.at/ersa/ersacon...papers/252.pdf
    USA: http://askville.amazon.com/average-c...uestId=2554434

    Commuting time, OECD: http://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...o-measure/307/

  9. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    So, not really any sense in your claims about dramatical differences. Degrees, yes. But none that in themselves will explain the car dependence of countries like GB and the USA.

  10. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
    I grew up in Amsterdam and I have now experienced biking in Baltimore for a while. I can tell you that the biggest difference in riding in both countries is not the infrastructure. Sure NL as many more dedicated bike lanes, but in the cities there are also plenty of spots where you have to deal with traffic in the regular lanes.

    The biggest difference is in the heads of drivers. In NL there is simply no discussion on if bicycles have a place in traffic or not, and when a driver has to wait for a bicycle it does so with the same amount of patience as if it was a motorized vehicle that it has to wait for.
    where as in colombia, a nation where cycling is rumored to be the national sport, the drivers couldn't give a ****.

    granted, they don't give a **** about anything that is in their way, be it man, woman, or child.

  11. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    where as in colombia, a nation where cycling is rumored to be the national sport, the drivers couldn't give a ****.

    granted, they don't give a **** about anything that is in their way, be it man, woman, or child.

    *yawn* don't complain to us if you never go riding because of the traffic, dude!


    bogota ciclo.jpg A person is left wondering if this is this some of the impetus for the cycloruta network in Bogota, Nd? bogota bridge.jpgUnfortunately, despite claims of living there, i don't trust Botto will be able to objectively help us on identifying the nudges that led to facilitated bike network in Colombia either, unfortunately.bogota_cicloruta.jpg
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    *yawn* don't complain to us if you never go riding because of the traffic, dude!


    bogota ciclo.jpg A person is left wondering if this is this some of the impetus for the cycloruta network in Bogota, Nd? bogota bridge.jpgUnfortunately, despite claims of living there, i don't trust Botto will be able to objectively help us on identifying the nudges that led to facilitated bike network in Colombia either, unfortunately.bogota_cicloruta.jpg
    :yawn:

    oh flabby, there you go with your read & regurgitate, read & regurgitate...

  13. #438
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    Originally Posted by hagen2456
    Ah, so you wanted the commuting distance numbers? Voilą:

    Holland: http://www-sre.wu.ac.at/ersa/ersacon...papers/252.pdf
    USA: http://askville.amazon.com/average-c...uestId=2554434

    Commuting time, OECD: http://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...o-measure/307/



    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    So, not really any sense in your claims about dramatical differences. Degrees, yes. But none that in themselves will explain the car dependence of countries like GB and the USA.
    The American average is given as 16 miles one way. The average of the averages given in the Dutch article is 10 miles one way. I consider that this is a significant difference. However, these data are rather irrelevant to the discussion of why Amsterdam, in particular, has such a high proportion of bicycle traffic. The American reference states that it is a national average. The Dutch reference considers traffic patterns in very wide areas surrounding its named cities, which is rather more like the American pattern than typical of the traffic in the old urban core which is the subject of the admiration directed at the supposed Dutch bicycle traffic mode share. Therefore, it is no wonder that the calculated Dutch commuting distance is as great as 10 miles one way, a distance that I presume few Dutch commuting cyclists travel.

    The admiration of the Dutch high bicycle traffic mode share is largely directed at the traffic pattern of the old urban core of the city of Amsterdam, an area whose nature provides a large proportion of short-distance trips.

  14. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Originally Posted by hagen2456
    Ah, so you wanted the commuting distance numbers? Voilą:

    Holland: http://www-sre.wu.ac.at/ersa/ersacon...papers/252.pdf
    USA: http://askville.amazon.com/average-c...uestId=2554434

    Commuting time, OECD: http://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...o-measure/307/





    The American average is given as 16 miles one way. The average of the averages given in the Dutch article is 10 miles one way. I consider that this is a significant difference. However, these data are rather irrelevant to the discussion of why Amsterdam, in particular, has such a high proportion of bicycle traffic. The American reference states that it is a national average. The Dutch reference considers traffic patterns in very wide areas surrounding its named cities, which is rather more like the American pattern than typical of the traffic in the old urban core which is the subject of the admiration directed at the supposed Dutch bicycle traffic mode share. Therefore, it is no wonder that the calculated Dutch commuting distance is as great as 10 miles one way, a distance that I presume few Dutch commuting cyclists travel.

    The admiration of the Dutch high bicycle traffic mode share is largely directed at the traffic pattern of the old urban core of the city of Amsterdam, an area whose nature provides a large proportion of short-distance trips.
    WHAAAAAT? 20.2 km = 10 miles? Get a grip, man!

    Oh, and the Dutch cycle long-distance, too. Biking make up 15% of journeys between 7.5 and 15 km, and 2% of longer distances. To you and me, 15 km is nothing, but think about it: 15%! But we both know the reason, of course: Infrastructure.

    http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/articles.html

  15. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    :yawn:

    oh flabby, there you go with your read & regurgitate, read & regurgitate...
    Do you have anything to add to the conversation apart from your sore attempts at humour?

  16. #441
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    "In the less densely populated north and northeast areas, as much as 30-40% of trips are undertaken by bike...". From http://books.google.dk/books?id=mqUz...20oecd&f=false

    So much for VC'ers' talk about density, biking and all that jazz.

    Face it: The Dutch bike because it's convenient and safe. And it's convenient and safe because of the infrastructure.

  17. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    WHAAAAAT? 20.2 km = 10 miles? Get a grip, man!

    Oh, and the Dutch cycle long-distance, too. Biking make up 15% of journeys between 7.5 and 15 km, and 2% of longer distances. To you and me, 15 km is nothing, but think about it: 15%! But we both know the reason, of course: Infrastructure.

    http://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/articles.html
    I never wrote what you claim I wrote: "WHAAAAAT? 20.2 km = 10 miles? Get a grip, man!" What I did write is given in the message of mine which you posted as a quotation: "The average of the averages given in the Dutch article is 10 miles one way." It is not my fault that your mind is bedazzled by your ideology.

    As for your claim that present Dutch bikeways have caused the amount of longer-distance cycling that you state, to support that claim you will need to provide credible evidence that the Dutch cycled for only much shorter distances before their bikeway system was created. I suspect that you will have considerable difficulty in discovering such evidence.

  18. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    And it's convenient and safe because of the infrastructure.
    Strict liability and traffic calming surely have nothing to do with convenience or safety.


  19. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Do you have anything to add to the conversation apart from your sore attempts at humour?
    Not attempting humor, illustrating a fact.

  20. #445
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    Not attempting humor, illustrating a fact.

    Yeah, but those facts are not about riding conditions in bogota, netherlands!

    if a rider is that scared of traffic, no wonder the bitterness.

    Quote Originally Posted by botto
    granted, they don't give a **** about anything that is in their way, be it man, woman, or child.

    if you find drivers that bad in bogota, does this mean you like riding in Holland better?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-05-13 at 04:03 AM.
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  21. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Yeah, but those facts are not about riding conditions in bogota, netherlands!

    if a rider is that scared of traffic, no wonder the bitterness.




    if you find drivers that bad in bogota, does this mean you like riding in Holland better?
    You really have no clue.

  22. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    I never wrote what you claim I wrote: "WHAAAAAT? 20.2 km = 10 miles? Get a grip, man!" What I did write is given in the message of mine which you posted as a quotation: "The average of the averages given in the Dutch article is 10 miles one way." It is not my fault that your mind is bedazzled by your ideology.

    As for your claim that present Dutch bikeways have caused the amount of longer-distance cycling that you state, to support that claim you will need to provide credible evidence that the Dutch cycled for only much shorter distances before their bikeway system was created. I suspect that you will have considerable difficulty in discovering such evidence.
    Yeah. I knew it. One really has to spell out EVERYTHING when discussing with you.

    Amsterdam is a rather large city. People tend to commute long distances in that region. Like, you know, an average of 20.2 km. And people DO bike a lot, too. Just sayin'.

    I have no doubt that the Dutch also biked rather long distances in the past. Like people in most of the western world did. BUT they saw a huge decline in biking during the 60's. Only when bike infrastructure was being build, the trend reversed.

    Same old, same old.

  23. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Strict liability and traffic calming surely have nothing to do with convenience or safety.

    Strict liability is an after-the-fact thing. And I doubt that it has very much to say in the context of mass biking. Traffic calming is mostly used in residential areas.

  24. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    Yeah, but those facts are not about riding conditions in bogota, netherlands!

    if a rider is that scared of traffic, no wonder the bitterness.




    if you find drivers that bad in bogota, does this mean you like riding in Holland better?
    But we ALL know that biking in Holland is horrible. Slow, and then the hordes of mopeds terrorizing cyclists.

  25. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Yeah. I knew it. One really has to spell out EVERYTHING when discussing with you.

    Amsterdam is a rather large city. People tend to commute long distances in that region. Like, you know, an average of 20.2 km. And people DO bike a lot, too. Just sayin'.

    I have no doubt that the Dutch also biked rather long distances in the past. Like people in most of the western world did. BUT they saw a huge decline in biking during the 60's. Only when bike infrastructure was being build, the trend reversed.

    Same old, same old.
    I repeat the argument that I have been making for a long time. The Dutch cycled a lot because their situation was such that walking and cycling were very useful and suited their low income relative to other European nations. Sure, the arrival of mass motoring reduced the amount of cycling, but, in the older areas the characteristics that suited cycling still existed. That enabled the Dutch to return to much of their historical cycling pattern.

    Consider the American contrast. America never had a cycling society during the automotive era; membership in the League of American Wheelmen collapsed in 1898. The urban development since then, shall we say during all of the era of American economic power, was based on either the existing rail transit or the newer automotive pattern.

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