Originally Posted by Bekologist

how medieval.

Simply pre-car isn't enough, it must be 'medieval' so as to exclude New Amsterdam and Boston from consideration of cities laid out prior to the motorcar.

Such is the world of revisionist bicycling according to the 'road sneak' cyclists club founder.

Originally Posted by botto

i've lived in NL and i am now in bogota.

as for geographic confusion? have you been to either?

doubt it.

Originally Posted by John Forester

History has a longer and more tangled reach than the simple explanation provided by Mr. Hagen. One of the causes for the Dutch attitude toward bicycle traffic goes back to the development of mass commuter transportation, which the Dutch missed. Another of the causes goes back to medieval times, for the medieval city patterns which enabled the Dutch to forgo mass commuter transportation. Another, and more recent, cause is the relatively late Dutch adoption of mass motoring.

Originally Posted by hagen2456

The average commute in the Netherlands is only very slightly shorter than in the USA. Average commutes in the industrialized-developed parts of the world are rather similar.


Edit: I would have liked to be able to speak of "median" for "average", but I can't at present find the numbers. As I remember the median numbers, they're even closer.

Hey, one more edit: I just remembered this one https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...-rate-for.html

I've posted it here before, of course. Of course.

Originally Posted by John Forester

The item posted has no information about the commuting distance, and hence is irrelevant to the discussion.

Originally Posted by hagen2456

Predictable. Yet, you spoke of all those medieval cities etc. etc. etc.

AND you don't even start to consider the fact of commuting distances. Verily, the emperor is naked.

Originally Posted by hagen2456

Sprawl: https://www.copenhagenize.com/

Originally Posted by hagen2456

Ah, so you wanted the commuting distance numbers? Voilà:

Holland: https://www-sre.wu.ac.at/ersa/ersacon...papers/252.pdf
USA: https://askville.amazon.com/average-c...uestId=2554434

Commuting time, OECD: https://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...o-measure/307/

Originally Posted by mr_pedro

I grew up in Amsterdam and I have now experienced biking in Baltimore for a while. I can tell you that the biggest difference in riding in both countries is not the infrastructure. Sure NL as many more dedicated bike lanes, but in the cities there are also plenty of spots where you have to deal with traffic in the regular lanes.

The biggest difference is in the heads of drivers. In NL there is simply no discussion on if bicycles have a place in traffic or not, and when a driver has to wait for a bicycle it does so with the same amount of patience as if it was a motorized vehicle that it has to wait for.

Originally Posted by botto

where as in colombia, a nation where cycling is rumored to be the national sport, the drivers couldn't give a ****.

granted, they don't give a **** about anything that is in their way, be it man, woman, or child.

Originally Posted by Bekologist

*yawn* don't complain to us if you never go riding because of the traffic, dude!


A person is left wondering if this is this some of the impetus for the cycloruta network in Bogota, Nd? Unfortunately, despite claims of living there, i don't trust Botto will be able to objectively help us on identifying the nudges that led to facilitated bike network in Colombia either, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by hagen2456

So, not really any sense in your claims about dramatical differences. Degrees, yes. But none that in themselves will explain the car dependence of countries like GB and the USA.

Originally Posted by John Forester

Originally Posted by hagen2456
Ah, so you wanted the commuting distance numbers? Voilà:

Holland: https://www-sre.wu.ac.at/ersa/ersacon...papers/252.pdf
USA: https://askville.amazon.com/average-c...uestId=2554434

Commuting time, OECD: https://www.theatlanticcities.com/com...o-measure/307/





The American average is given as 16 miles one way. The average of the averages given in the Dutch article is 10 miles one way. I consider that this is a significant difference. However, these data are rather irrelevant to the discussion of why Amsterdam, in particular, has such a high proportion of bicycle traffic. The American reference states that it is a national average. The Dutch reference considers traffic patterns in very wide areas surrounding its named cities, which is rather more like the American pattern than typical of the traffic in the old urban core which is the subject of the admiration directed at the supposed Dutch bicycle traffic mode share. Therefore, it is no wonder that the calculated Dutch commuting distance is as great as 10 miles one way, a distance that I presume few Dutch commuting cyclists travel.

The admiration of the Dutch high bicycle traffic mode share is largely directed at the traffic pattern of the old urban core of the city of Amsterdam, an area whose nature provides a large proportion of short-distance trips.

Originally Posted by botto

:yawn:

oh flabby, there you go with your read & regurgitate, read & regurgitate...

Originally Posted by hagen2456

WHAAAAAT? 20.2 km = 10 miles? Get a grip, man!

Oh, and the Dutch cycle long-distance, too. Biking make up 15% of journeys between 7.5 and 15 km, and 2% of longer distances. To you and me, 15 km is nothing, but think about it: 15%! But we both know the reason, of course: Infrastructure.

https://www.hembrowcyclingholidays.com/articles.html

Originally Posted by hagen2456

And it's convenient and safe because of the infrastructure.

Originally Posted by hagen2456

Do you have anything to add to the conversation apart from your sore attempts at humour?

Originally Posted by botto

Not attempting humor, illustrating a fact.

Originally Posted by botto

granted, they don't give a **** about anything that is in their way, be it man, woman, or child.

Originally Posted by Bekologist

Yeah, but those facts are not about riding conditions in bogota, netherlands!

if a rider is that scared of traffic, no wonder the bitterness.




if you find drivers that bad in bogota, does this mean you like riding in Holland better?

Originally Posted by John Forester

I never wrote what you claim I wrote: "WHAAAAAT? 20.2 km = 10 miles? Get a grip, man!" What I did write is given in the message of mine which you posted as a quotation: "The average of the averages given in the Dutch article is 10 miles one way." It is not my fault that your mind is bedazzled by your ideology.

As for your claim that present Dutch bikeways have caused the amount of longer-distance cycling that you state, to support that claim you will need to provide credible evidence that the Dutch cycled for only much shorter distances before their bikeway system was created. I suspect that you will have considerable difficulty in discovering such evidence.

Originally Posted by spare_wheel

Strict liability and traffic calming surely have nothing to do with convenience or safety.

Originally Posted by Bekologist

Yeah, but those facts are not about riding conditions in bogota, netherlands!

if a rider is that scared of traffic, no wonder the bitterness.




if you find drivers that bad in bogota, does this mean you like riding in Holland better?

Originally Posted by hagen2456

Yeah. I knew it. One really has to spell out EVERYTHING when discussing with you.

Amsterdam is a rather large city. People tend to commute long distances in that region. Like, you know, an average of 20.2 km. And people DO bike a lot, too. Just sayin'.

I have no doubt that the Dutch also biked rather long distances in the past. Like people in most of the western world did. BUT they saw a huge decline in biking during the 60's. Only when bike infrastructure was being build, the trend reversed.

Same old, same old.