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Old 04-07-13, 05:40 PM   #476
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Most car rides are very short. The potential for cycling is enormous.
Unless there is a strong reason to keep people from driving, it will remain a "potential".
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Old 04-07-13, 05:53 PM   #477
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Unless there is a strong reason to keep people from driving, it will remain a "potential".
Well, many, many people would like to be able to ride a bike peacefully and safe. Or so they say, and that should of course be taken with a grain of salt. Yet, though not all segments of the population are equally ready to choose a bike instead of a car for shorter rides, there's no doubt that the potential IS there. Look at the dwindling number of youths getting a driver's license or a car. There may well be a paradigm shift going on.

Once riding a bike really IS a (safe) pleasure, it will catch on.
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Old 04-07-13, 05:56 PM   #478
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Well, many, many people would like to be able to ride a bike peacefully and safe. Or so they say, and that should of course be taken with a grain of salt.
This is kind of vague. It's hard to disagree with but it's not clear what one is agreeing to.

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Yet, though not all segments of the population are equally ready to choose a bike instead of a car for shorter rides, there's no doubt that the potential IS there.
It's possible but it doesn't seem probable.

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Look at the dwindling number of youths getting a driver's license or a car.
"Look at" what? You don't show a source. Where is this happening?

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Once riding a bike really IS a (safe) pleasure, it will catch on.
In NYC (at least), you'd also have to figure out a way from keeping the bikes from getting stolen.

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Old 04-07-13, 06:09 PM   #479
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It's my impression that cycling was prevalent in London as well as most of GB well into the 50's.
So was rationing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationi...United_Kingdom
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Old 04-07-13, 07:26 PM   #480
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....addled from all the fumes.

What sorry apologists for the automobile era. Have to figure out a way to keep the bicycles from getting stolen in NYC.... yep, cyclists in NYC better just pack it in then, no sense riding THERE.

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"Look at" what? You don't show a source. Where is this happening?
where is car use among young people declining? Is bike forums the sole source of your current events, njkayaker? This is now common knowledge - cultural literacy, dig?

Despite it's purported 'conveniences', private automobile dependancy is not a net positive for american or british society, a fact most of you are obtusely trying to deny.

nor was it for the dutch, something they deliberately and structurally altered as a society after the car rose to dominate dutch roads in the 2 decades after WWII.

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Old 04-07-13, 07:44 PM   #481
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Bullocks yourself. Mode share dived dramatically with increasing car traffic and car-related cyclist fatalities. Biking increased again with the dedicated infrastructure. It's as simple as that.
The only person you're cheating is yourself.
and you completely ignored my point. its terribly inconvenient that mode share in holland started increasing prior to most of that infrastructure. mebbe...just mebbe...its not only infrastructure but also societal attitudes towards motoring.

screw "build it and they will come".
my mantra is: "if you ***** slap the motor vehicle off its pedestal, they will come".

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The only person you're cheating is yourself.
considering that i have been happily living car free/light for more than a decade i don't feel cheated in the least.
in fact, one of my primary criticisms of separated infrastructure is that it seeks co-existance with motorists. i vehemently believe we need to take back the streets from the failed paradigm of the single occupancy vehicle.
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Old 04-07-13, 09:50 PM   #482
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my mantra is: "if you ***** slap the motor vehicle off its pedestal, they will come".

i vehemently believe we need to take back the streets from the failed paradigm of the single occupancy vehicle.
Who is this "we" you speak of? You and the rest of the bold ***** slappers?
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Old 04-08-13, 01:43 AM   #483
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I added the bold to the quote below:


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Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
Well, many, many people would like to be able to ride a bike peacefully and safe. Or so they say, and that should of course be taken with a grain of salt. Yet, though not all segments of the population are equally ready to choose a bike instead of a car for shorter rides, there's no doubt that the potential IS there. Look at the dwindling number of youths getting a driver's license or a car. There may well be a paradigm shift going on.

Once riding a bike really IS a (safe) pleasure, it will catch on.

In U.S. cities, in some urban and suburban community situations, I think there is potential for a wide range of the population irregardless of wealth, class or income, to be interested in riding and walking rather than driving. Where the infrastructure for walking and biking sucks...and in my own suburban neighborhood, I can easily cite examples...that's a deal killer. People...what range of types and what percent is anyone's guess...will put up with heat, cold, or rain to get a little workout walking or biking on a trip to do shopping, but for some of them, the hazards of cars whooshing by, will have them reaching for the car keys every time.
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Old 04-08-13, 03:46 AM   #484
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People moved around London before cycling.
good lord, let's hope so.
....................

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Who is driving these cars? Is it city dwellers? If it's people in the suburbs commuting, the alternative isn't going to be bicycling.

People really like cars. We are seeing it in China and India (at a time where the problems of automobiles is well-known).

How do you propose getting people to take up cycling to replace something they really like?
oh, you know, like how it's done everywhere modal share has shifted away from the automobile -

adjust the costs, access, licensing, equipment and transportation network to accurately reflect, or at least partially offset, the externalities associated with driving.
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Old 04-08-13, 04:44 AM   #485
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway

NYC: Population: 7 million. Subway 1.65 billion rides (in 2012). A factor of 235 (rides per capita).

Amsterdam. Population 820,000. Subway: 290,000 passengers (in 2009) A factor of 0.35 (rides per capita). (It's not clear how much of it is actually underground.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Metro

The subway in NYC is used a factor of 672 times per capita than in Amsterdam. People likely use the subway in NYC, London, Paris in a very different manner than they do in Amsterdam, "doncha think"? (Never mind.)

One might gather that the reasons the Amsterdam system isn't bigger is due, in part, to the canals.
Amsterdam has, unlike New York, a very dense network of trams and busses. The metro network on the other hand is far less dense.
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Old 04-08-13, 06:06 AM   #486
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Amsterdam has, unlike New York, a very dense network of trams and busses. The metro network on the other hand is far less dense.
Are you sure the bus/tram (the same thing functionally) density is higher in Amsterdam?

It doesn't seem likely that they would move any where near the same number rides per capita as a large metro subway system would.

It's possible that buses/trams don't change bicycling usage. It's possible that a large metro subway system could.

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Old 04-08-13, 06:23 AM   #487
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oh, you know, like how it's done everywhere modal share has shifted away from the automobile -

adjust the costs, access, licensing, equipment and transportation network to accurately reflect, or at least partially offset, the externalities associated with driving.
Overall (world-wide), car ownership is rising Even in the Netherlands. And the rest of Europe, where car ownership is high.

http://www.xesc.cat/pashmina/attachm...apita_2030.pdf

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What sorry apologists for the automobile era. Have to figure out a way to keep the bicycles from getting stolen in NYC.... yep, cyclists in NYC better just pack it in then, no sense riding THERE.
People do cycle in NYC but it likely isn't ever to be a significant portion of the population.

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where is car use among young people declining? Is bike forums the sole source of your current events, njkayaker? This is now common knowledge - cultural literacy, dig?
??? So, I guess it isn't? Or, is this your new way of sourcing statements?

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Despite it's purported 'conveniences', private automobile dependancy is not a net positive for american or british society, a fact most of you are obtusely trying to deny.
??? Huh? I never said it was a net positive. Is your argument skill so bad as to require you to put words on people's mouths?

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....addled from all the fumes.
That does explain a lot.

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Old 04-08-13, 06:29 AM   #488
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People do cycle in NYC but it likely isn't ever to be a significant portion of the population.


??? So, I guess it isn't? Or, is this your new way of sourcing statements?
Oh, evidence from other cities around the world certainly suggests New Amsterdam has every potential to exceed double digit cycling participation as a percentage of trips outside the home.

And, don't complain to me about your cultural illiteracy.
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Old 04-08-13, 07:36 AM   #489
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Oh, evidence from other cities around the world certainly suggests New Amsterdam has every potential to exceed double digit cycling participation as a percentage of trips outside the home.
And, except (maybe) in a few rare places, it's declining.

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And, don't complain to me about your cultural illiteracy.
Your argument is so good that you have to resort to ad hominens to make it.

What is it about you that makes you start bullying people when arguments don't go your way?

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Old 04-08-13, 10:58 AM   #490
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Oh, evidence from other cities around the world certainly suggests New Amsterdam has every potential to exceed double digit cycling participation as a percentage of trips outside the home.

And, don't complain to me about your cultural illiteracy.
Bek, where is your evidence that there ever was any cycling in New Amsterdam?

As I have written before, the population that lives or works in the Manhattan Island area of New York City is the most transportationally deprived population in the USA. The area has grown rather larger than is convenient for walking. There is the best mass rail transit system in the USA. But vehicular travel on the streets is greatly impeded by the great crush of cars daily driven in from outside. Under the circumstances, it is no wonder that some of these people are taking up cycling, and that more might well in the future. But this does not represent a switch from motoring to cycling. The people who switch were not commuting motorists; they were walkers, bus riders, and some from mass rail.
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Old 04-08-13, 11:24 AM   #491
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Who is this "we" you speak of? You and the rest of the bold ***** slappers?
those who are fed up with unnecessary carnage in our streets.
those who are tired of supporting brutal petrol-dictatorships.
those who are tired of pollution and environmental destruction.

people like these:

Attached Images
File Type: jpg m1czsv1asdi4_505x800.jpg (97.4 KB, 10 views)
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Old 04-08-13, 11:26 AM   #492
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those who are fed up with unnecessary carnage in our streets.
those who are tired of supporting brutal petrol-dictatorships.
those who are tired of pollution and environmental destruction.

people like these:

Funny, they don't look Portlandish.
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Old 04-08-13, 11:35 AM   #493
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Bek, where is your evidence that there ever was any cycling in New Amsterdam?

As I have written before, the population that lives or works in the Manhattan Island area of New York City is the most transportationally deprived population in the USA. The area has grown rather larger than is convenient for walking. There is the best mass rail transit system in the USA. But vehicular travel on the streets is greatly impeded by the great crush of cars daily driven in from outside. Under the circumstances, it is no wonder that some of these people are taking up cycling, and that more might well in the future. But this does not represent a switch from motoring to cycling. The people who switch were not commuting motorists; they were walkers, bus riders, and some from mass rail.
excuse me, john -- a typical tactic.

you think you need evidence that there's been cycling in new york city?

obviously you've forgotten your cycling history i see.

cycling trivia -

Q: Who established roving police patrols on bicycles in New York City, long prior to the popularization of the automobile?

A: Teddy Roosevelt, in 1895.
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Old 04-08-13, 11:40 AM   #494
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Your argument is so good
it's not an argument, it's common knowledge. Just like the common knowledge that there's been bicycles in use in New York City for quite some time.



you really haven't heard kids are driving less?


in the last decade, miles driven by young adults in this country declined by, like, 27 percent.

I'd predict they're pretty low in Holland, and also on the decline.
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Old 04-08-13, 11:48 AM   #495
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and you completely ignored my point. its terribly inconvenient that mode share in holland started increasing prior to most of that infrastructure. mebbe...just mebbe...its not only infrastructure but also societal attitudes towards motoring.

screw "build it and they will come".
my mantra is: "if you ***** slap the motor vehicle off its pedestal, they will come".


considering that i have been happily living car free/light for more than a decade i don't feel cheated in the least.
in fact, one of my primary criticisms of separated infrastructure is that it seeks co-existance with motorists. i vehemently believe we need to take back the streets from the failed paradigm of the single occupancy vehicle.
You're wrong. The Dutch cycled in hordes (like most Europeans, as well as the Brits) untill the arrival of The Car - or rather, untill the cars more or less took over the cities. As cycling became ever more dangerous because of the cars, cycling decreased. This trend was stopped in the Netherlands (and in Copenhagen) in the early 70's when huge demonstrations of cyclists/environmentalists showed that people had been fed up with the carnage and the destruction of their cities in the name of The-Car-is-Progress. With better bike infrastructure, cycling resurged. That's how it happened. It didn't have anything to do with societal attitudes - or only as far as that the majority supported the bike infrastructure, believing (rightly) that it would save many, many lives. People didn't all of a sudden start cycling again, disregarding the very real dangers.
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Old 04-08-13, 11:56 AM   #496
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you really haven't heard kids are driving less?
I've heard a lot of things, doesn't make it so, even if you believe it or want to believe it.

You might hear lots of "facts" on Fox News or talk radio, or read on Internet blogs that are not proof of anything but the gullibility of some people who repeat this stuff.
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Old 04-08-13, 01:55 PM   #497
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You're wrong. The Dutch cycled in hordes (like most Europeans, as well as the Brits) untill the arrival of The Car - or rather, untill the cars more or less took over the cities. As cycling became ever more dangerous because of the cars, cycling decreased. This trend was stopped in the Netherlands (and in Copenhagen) in the early 70's when huge demonstrations of cyclists/environmentalists showed that people had been fed up with the carnage and the destruction of their cities in the name of The-Car-is-Progress. With better bike infrastructure, cycling resurged. That's how it happened. It didn't have anything to do with societal attitudes - or only as far as that the majority supported the bike infrastructure, believing (rightly) that it would save many, many lives. People didn't all of a sudden start cycling again, disregarding the very real dangers.
you seem to think that i disagree with the first part of what you wrote. i don't. what i disagree with is the idea that infrastructure alone can promote large increases in active transport mode share in north america.

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That's how it happened. People didn't all of a sudden start cycling again...
traffic calming, lower speed limits, decisions to not expand freeways, woonerfs, the re-emergence of car-free/light commercial districts, and strict liability laws all preceded the massive build out of cycle paths.

http://mighkwilson.com/wp-content/up...ng-history.jpg
http://www.fietsberaad.nl/library/re...lan%201999.pdf

in fact, one can make the argument that in denmark cycling began to stagnate during a period of infrastructure build out:

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...rld.html#graph

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...disregarding the very real dangers.
in portland we have lots of crappy cycling routes that are flooded with utilitarian cyclists. somehow in a city with only a tiny amount of fully separated (versus separate) infrastructure cycling managed to double in mode share in less than a decade. could it be that the mikael colville andersens of the world are exaggerating the risks of cycling to promote their particular vision of cycling?

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Old 04-08-13, 01:58 PM   #498
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I've heard a lot of things, doesn't make it so, even if you believe it or want to believe it.

You might hear lots of "facts" on Fox News or talk radio, or read on Internet blogs that are not proof of anything but the gullibility of some people who repeat this stuff.
You're over-doing it, man. A skeptical attitude is always fine, but the facts Bek refer to are well known.

http://theenergycollective.com/james...ll-it-continue
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Old 04-08-13, 02:06 PM   #499
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you seem to think that i disagree with the first part of what you wrote. i don't. what i disagree with is the idea that infrastructure alone can promote large increases in active transport mode share in north america.
I actually aggree with you there. All the things you mention are important. Noone I know of would think that bike paths alone will do it. After all, you can't have them everywhere, so other measures have to be taken in lots of places.

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why has cycling declined in the denmark?

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com...rld.html#graph
As I've mentioned before, it's more-or-less up to the municipalities to decide how much they wish to do for cyclists. In places like Odense, they've done quite a lot, and as a result, cycling has increased very much. In Copenhagen, the effort hasn't been able to follow the demand, so cycling seems to be stagnating. In other places, very little has been done. The difference between Denmark and the Netherlands is that there, it's a lot more a matter of central planning. There are places (I think Rotterdam, for instance), where conditions are less-than-optimal, but they still have to live up to certain standards.

There's one other difference. Here, we've seen a lot of greul propaganda for helmets. They don't do that in the Netherlands.
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Old 04-08-13, 02:13 PM   #500
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it's not an argument, it's common knowledge. Just like the common knowledge that there's been bicycles in use in New York City for quite some time.
Like that the moon is made of green cheese.

If it's actually "common", it should be easy to provide a reference.

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in the last decade, miles driven by young adults in this country declined by, like, 27 percent.
What is "young adult"? What is the baseine for the "27%"? A year? A decade?

There's no way of evaluating such an incomplete statistic.

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