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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    You're over-doing it, man. A skeptical attitude is always fine, but the facts Bek refer to are well known.

    http://theenergycollective.com/james...ll-it-continue
    No, Bek appears to be making-up specific numbers. No one knows what the hell "27%" refers to!

    For the 18-29 year-old and 18-40 age groups, it's about a 2.3% annual drop.

    Thanks for the link.

    There's no evidence that they are taking up bicycling instead.

  2. #502
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    yes, semantics nanny.

    so now you're culturally literate on the declining numbers of young motorists.... do you see the numbers that support kids drive dramatically less these days in the USA?

    kids do drive less, is it over 20 percent in the last decade by YOUR calculations, brainiac?

    let's see, 2.3 percent annually, over a decade, works out to, margin of error 4 percent........



    when i posted 27 percent, i thought it was perhaps about 24 percent, but didn't fact check what is obvious - declining numbers of youth motorists. - I figured i'd let exactness slide on an non-ancillary figure - it doesnt even figure in this discussion about dutch cycling.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-08-13 at 03:07 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    when i posted 27 percent, i thought it was perhaps about 24 percent, but didn't fact check what is obvious - declining numbers of youth motorists. - I figured i'd let exactness slide on an non-ancillary figure - it doesnt even figure in this discussion about dutch cycling.
    So, you used 27% when you "thought" it was 24%? Bizarre. Why provide links when it's just easier to make stuff up?

    You aren't in great position to request other people for references when you make stuff up rather than provide any yourself.

    What a tool.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-08-13 at 04:01 PM.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    it's not an argument, it's common knowledge. Just like the common knowledge that there's been bicycles in use in New York City for quite some time.



    you really haven't heard kids are driving less?


    in the last decade, miles driven by young adults in this country declined by, like, 27 percent.

    I'd predict they're pretty low in Holland, and also on the decline.
    I see that Bek has not tumbled to the fact that the City of New Amsterdam ceased existence before the invention of the bicycle.

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    So, you used 27% when you "thought" it was 24%? Bizarre. Why provide links when it's just easier to make stuff up?

    You aren't in great position to request other people for references when you make stuff up rather than provide any yourself.

    What a tool.
    He was right in principle. Which is more than one can say of those deriding him.

  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    I see that Bek has not tumbled to the fact that the City of New Amsterdam ceased existence before the invention of the bicycle.
    Funny. A page back, you yourself used the "New Amsterdam" - obviously knowing that Bek was making a joking reference to the "real" Amsterdam. But now it apparently suits you better to forget that you ever did either.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post


    yes, semantics nanny.

    so now you're culturally literate on the declining numbers of young motorists.... do you see the numbers that support kids drive dramatically less these days in the USA?

    kids do drive less, is it over 20 percent in the last decade by YOUR calculations, brainiac?

    let's see, 2.3 percent annually, over a decade, works out to, margin of error 4 percent........



    when i posted 27 percent, i thought it was perhaps about 24 percent, but didn't fact check what is obvious - declining numbers of youth motorists. - I figured i'd let exactness slide on an non-ancillary figure - it doesnt even figure in this discussion about dutch cycling.
    Discussing with these totally entrenched guys is frustrating. Once you've refuted some of their claims or proven your own, they'll skip to some semantic detail, digging into it and exploiting it untill one has brought some light to that too - and when that's dealt with, up comes the next irrelevant detour. And finally, when everybody has forgotten most of the original conversation, up come the original claims. Complete with an amazing ability to ignore whichever annoying fact is thrown at them.

    Again and again. Thread after thread.

  8. #508
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    You're over-doing it, man. A skeptical attitude is always fine, but the facts Bek refer to are well known.

    http://theenergycollective.com/james...ll-it-continue
    It is correct to be skeptical of any claim from somebody who bases it on what he heard (somewhere.) Bek chose to not cite any source for what he "heard" but rather stand by that silly statement.

    Your source at least tries to get at some of the reasons for the stats showing less driving being done. Some of them look as if the reasons are agenda driven, citing polls of dubious value and wishful and/or fuzzy thinking and bear plenty of skepticism.
    "Polls [sponsored by Zipcar] show that younger Americans are more willing to cut back on driving for environmental reasons. Occupy Wall Street and young environmental activists have been a vocal element of movements to block energy infrastructure such as the Keystone XL pipeline. And, young people are apparently less apt to be patrons of NASCAR, which commentators speculate is related to a decline in interests in automobile culture in general."

    Bottom line: I wouldn't count on any less interest in cars should the economy pick up for these "younger people."

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    It is correct to be skeptical of any claim from somebody who bases it on what he heard (somewhere.) Bek chose to not cite any source for what he "heard" but rather stand by that silly statement.

    Your source at least tries to get at some of the reasons for the stats showing less driving being done. Some of them look as if the reasons are agenda driven, citing polls of dubious value and wishful and/or fuzzy thinking and bear plenty of skepticism.
    "Polls [sponsored by Zipcar] show that younger Americans are more willing to cut back on driving for environmental reasons. Occupy Wall Street and young environmental activists have been a vocal element of movements to block energy infrastructure such as the Keystone XL pipeline. And, young people are apparently less apt to be patrons of NASCAR, which commentators speculate is related to a decline in interests in automobile culture in general."

    Bottom line: I wouldn't count on any less interest in cars should the economy pick up for these "younger people."
    You know... In stead of spending a lot of effort on being a smart***, you could have searched for the numbers yourself. Or would that be against some rule concerning discussions?

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    You know... In stead of spending a lot of effort on being a smart***, you could have searched for the numbers yourself. Or would that be against some rule concerning discussions?
    Why the heck should I Jack?
    The rule of discussions is that the claimant supports his own claims; if he can.
    Bek made a specific unsupported statement to support his bicycling advocacy agenda, let him support the claim or just state that it was his best guess.

    Note that your "search" didn't come up with much to support Bek's claim. And of course your source of the alleged lower driving miles for younger people and conjured reasons for it, didn't demonstrate anything about any corresponding increased interest in younger people riding bicycles for any purpose.

    Note that this is a bicycling advocacy list; not a forum of motoring, for or against.
    Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 04-08-13 at 10:30 PM.

  11. #511
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    someone needs a jumbo tube of chamois creme, what chafing!

    i was mentioning the widespread cultural phenomenon of kids driving less. this is common knowledge, widely reported in the popular press and supported by census bureau's american community surveys and industry studies.

    i was within 3 percent of the correct figure when i tossed in a number reflecting the amount of the decline-

    within 3 percent of the correct number, without having to go reference the common knowledge that yes, american kids are driving much less than previous decades.

    I'd suspect this decline is echoed in Europe, albeit to a lesser degree.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    You know... In stead of spending a lot of effort on being a smart***, you could have searched for the numbers yourself
    Sorry, life doesn't work that way.

    If somebody makes a claim that they want others to take seriously, they are required to provide the support for that claim.

    Here are some reasons for that:

    1) It's down-right silly to expect other people to make your argument for you. It's your job to make your argument!
    2) It's highly unlikely that other people are going to be able to find the exact reference one is allegedly using as a source.
    3) It's a silly waste of time for other people to go hunting for the particular source you must already have to pull an exact number from!

    It's also asinine to for Bek to complain repeatedly about "lack of sources" while allowing himself to make unsupported claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Or would that be against some rule concerning discussions?
    Yes, it is against the normally-accepted rules concerning discussions. Indeed, it's "common knowlege"!
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-09-13 at 10:10 AM.

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    someone needs a jumbo tube of chamois creme, what chafing!

    i was mentioning the widespread cultural phenomenon of kids driving less. this is common knowledge, widely reported in the popular press and supported by census bureau's american community surveys and industry studies.

    i was within 3 percent of the correct figure when i tossed in a number reflecting the amount of the decline-

    within 3 percent of the correct number, without having to go reference the common knowledge that yes, american kids are driving much less than previous decades.

    I'd suspect this decline is echoed in Europe, albeit to a lesser degree.
    If was "widely reported", it should have been easy for you to provide a reference for the "exact" statistic you made up.

    What a tool!
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-09-13 at 10:05 AM.

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Why the heck should I Jack?
    It might interest you. Bek might have sparked some curiosity in you. I mean... you aren't here just to play the little boy in "The Emperor's New Clothes", are you?

    Though I appreciate such little boys, I must admit that I find it a bit tiring if debunking is all they can think of.

  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Yes, it is against the normally-accepted rules concerning discussions. Indeed, it's "common knowlege"!

    I have noticed that that seems to be what most people think. However, it may be beneficial to sometimes think of this as a conversation instead of a discussion.

  16. #516
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    However, it may be beneficial to sometimes think of this as a conversation instead of a discussion.
    With the same verisimilitude as found in conversations held in barrooms and dormitory lounges every early Sunday morning by those too drunk to move on.

  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    With the same verisimilitude as found in conversations held in barrooms and dormitory lounges every early Sunday morning by those too drunk to move on.
    ok...when you write verisimilitude with a straight face i know you are yanking our chain.

  18. #518
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Sorry, life doesn't work that way.

    If somebody makes a claim that they want others to take seriously, they are required to provide the support for that claim.


    HILARIOUS!

    I ballparked a figure (within a few percentage points) about a widespread, common knowledge cultural phenomenon some of you are apparently completely unaware of

    would any of you been happier if i would have said 'about a quarter'?


    probably not. more chamois creme!


    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    I have noticed that that seems to be what most people think.
    If that's what "most people think/expect", then, maybe, that should be taken as a hint as to what one should do. It's a bit odd to do the thing that people don't expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    However, it may be beneficial to sometimes think of this as a conversation instead of a discussion.
    ??? That really doesn't make sense. It can't morph to a "conversation" just because the discussion becomes inconvenient.

    Regardless, it certainly makes no sense to tell people to find your statistics. That's just bizarre.

    It also two-faced of Bek to complain about lack of references (something he does frequently) and then resort to calling people names when people ask him for references for exact "statistics". It's characteristic of Bek to lose it when discussions don't go his way.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-09-13 at 12:29 PM.

  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post


    HILARIOUS!

    I ballparked a figure (within a few percentage points) about a widespread, common knowledge cultural phenomenon some of you are apparently completely unaware of

    would any of you been happier if i would have said 'about a quarter'?


    probably not. more chamois creme!


    No, you pulled a number out of your rear (no doubt, helped by all that creme) and you were just lucky that was sort-of close.


    If your approach is to insult people who you think happen to be unware of something, then you really should get out of the advocacy business.

    What is wrong with you?

    You keep implying that it is easy to provide a reference. But rather than doing that, you keep blathering about it being easy to do and insulting people!
    Last edited by njkayaker; 04-09-13 at 12:39 PM.

  21. #521
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I'm not the person trying to create artifice and contrition about personally being out to lunch about a widespread cultural phenomenon.

    yes, njkayaker.

    youth drive significantly less in america, a phenomenon widely reported on in the mainstream press. some other posters were completely oblivious to, and appear perfectly willing to continue to emphasize their own cultural illiteracy.

    I'd looked it up to confirm, then ballparked it incorrectly, remembering 27 percent rather than the m/l 24 percent i saw referred to at a ACS distillation.

    not sure what the conflict is, njkayker, to be perfectly honest. you didn't know kids drive less. no biggie. time to move on. or, go buy some chamois creme, cut down on your irritation. it's become a disruption. and to be perfectly honest, i rarely ask for specific documentation, nor do i care about a few percent when looking at quartiles.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-09-13 at 12:49 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #522
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    youth drive significantly less in america, a phenomenon widely reported on in the mainstream press.
    [SNIP]
    referred to at a ACS distillation.
    Presumably the "ACS distillation" = the energycollectivereport's "distillation" = "widely reported on in the mainstream press."
    No wonder this "widespread cultural phenomenon" is the talk of the town, or at least was at Zipcar until taken over by Avis.

  23. #523
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    ok...when you write verisimilitude with a straight face i know you are yanking our chain.
    Sorry that you don't understand words with more than 4 letters.

  24. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    It might interest you. Bek might have sparked some curiosity in you. I mean... you aren't here just to play the little boy in "The Emperor's New Clothes", are you?

    Though I appreciate such little boys, I must admit that I find it a bit tiring if debunking is all they can think of.
    I prefer Beacon of Truth and Honesty shining a light ("debunking" if you prefer) through the fog of rumor, wishful thinking, gossip, urban legends, statistical manipulations, and ignorant/deliberate BS that passes for bicycling advocacy and/or bicycling safety by more than a few posters on BF.

    Obviously others revel in those kind of conversations where anything that sounds good passes for the truth.

  25. #525
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    the obstreperous critics, dumbfounded by the significant, mainstream trend kids drive a lot less than they used to, obtusely blindsided by cultural change.

    : "The Beacon of Truth and Honesty shining a light thru the fog of rumor" shouldn't that all be capitalized, like Bunyan's Pilgrims' Progress?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-09-13 at 08:03 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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