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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Nah. You don't get it. Despite clear evidence that cyclists in the USA cycle longer median distances at faster speeds you are obsessed with making the round peg of north america fit into the square peg of your danish preconceptions.




    QED. 4 miles is a very short commute in North America.



    Pish. Cycling by chidren has seen a steady decline in Denmark. I hate to pop your I ♥ CPH bubble but I do not look to Denmark for inspiration. I look to Holland's far more anarchic anything goes model.



    You really are uninformed. The entire mentality in north america is different when it comes to transportation cycling. I often find myself in a huge pack of cyclists attacking modest hills at speeds well in excess of 32 km/hr. Moreover, on my commute home its not uncommon for I and other cyclists to be in the vehicle lane travelling at 45+ km/h. Heck -- on the steepest downhill part of my commute I hit ~60 km/h just about every day (and have been doing so for decades). Separating cyclists from the bull does not tame the bull, it enables the bull.
    Ah. You WOULD have a hard time following those Copenhageners. And no, you still don't get what those averages are about.

    Edit: On the whole, you seem to be unable to read/understand what I write. For instance, I wrote that fewer children ride in DK than in NL. And no, I didn't write that children riding bikes is declining. Not sure about the relevance. I also wrote that we have long distance bike commuters, though they're of course a minority among cyclists. Many of those are of course team riders, but others are just serious about their cycling. Just like many, or perhaps even most, American cyclists. We've got them all, here: The very fast guys; the semi-fast, like me; the standard, average cyclist; the slow (typically children and elderly).

    Regarding the commuting distances, see Bek's answer. But we keep repeating the same facts, and you guys... Just. Don't. Notice.
    Last edited by hagen2456; 04-22-13 at 11:18 AM.

  2. #602
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    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by proileri View Post
    It's also important to remember that if you get more than a few bicycles per mile, they start affect vehicle traffic. In countries where cycling is seen as utilitarian, you might have dozens of bicycles per mile. It's simply impossible to fit all those bikes on a car lane, and this is one of the key reasons why the separated bike lanes/tracks exist.
    Only, in Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Groningen, Odense and lots of other places, it would be hundreds and hundreds of bicycles/km - plus the cars. Havoc.

    As it is, bikes get through the roads and streets of central Copenhagen (and Amsterdam etc.) a lot faster than cars, in particular during rush hours. What's not to like?

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    And no, you still don't get what those averages are about.
    Pot calling kettle black. There are ~2800 employees signed up for my employer's bike incentive program and the average bike commute distance is 4.5 miles one way. and believe me very few of those cyclists are lycra-wearing weekend warriors. A dutch or danish person thinks nothing of cycling half a mile to a station to hop on a train that goes another 3 miles. Its naive to think that what works in CPH is going to be able to lifted over to north america in a cookie cutter fashion.

    Quote Originally Posted by proileri View Post
    It's also important to remember that if you get more than a few bicycles per mile, they start affect vehicle traffic...
    And you say this like its a bad thing.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-22-13 at 03:56 PM.

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post


    And you say this like its a bad thing.
    Of course this isn't really a bad thing... but if it ever comes to that sort of cycling density, then those motorists expecting to go 50MPH+ on our urban arterial roads are going to be somewhat surprised.

    Of course to get to that sort of cycling density, some 20-25% of the current driving population in the US will have to take to bicycles... which isn't likely to happen as long as gas is cheap (uh, supplemented by government) and those drivers believe that the road is for cars. ("get on the sidewalk").

    But indeed that would be a real issue... for motorists.

  5. #605
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    . . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by proileri
    it's also important to remember that if you get more than a few bicycles per mile, they start affect vehicle traffic...
    and you say this like its a bad thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    of course this isn't really a bad thing... But if it ever comes to that sort of cycling density, then those motorists expecting to go 50mph+ on our urban arterial roads are going to be somewhat surprised. . . .

    Okay, I'll bite on this one. I would say its a good thing in low speed in town type traffic. Keeps motorist from racing to the next stop light to hurry up and wait and endangering others by that style of aggressive driving in the process. Cyclists prefer to run smoothly and hit the lights in sequence instead of driving like a maniac like a lot of motorists like to do with "in town" square block grid traffic (Accelerating pedal to the metal cutting in and out of lanes trying to get ahead of the next guy doing over 35 mph at their peak speed point right before they slam on the brakes at the end of the block to wait in line for the next light). Mixing in enough cyclist into the mix who ride in the center of the lane and hold their position running full vehicular style performs a public service and makes the traffic run smoother and much safer for everyone.

    Now on high speed roadways its a different story.

  6. #606
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    and THAT folks, is how the dutch do it! purportedly!
    What a doozy, just like foresters 'dangers of woonerven' .

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo 1889
    Mixing in enough cyclist into the mix who ride in the center of the lane and hold their position running full vehicular style performs a public service and makes the traffic run smoother and much safer for everyone.
    hilarious. as if that happens anywhere - what a Walter Mitty-ism!!!! "pocketa pocketa pocketa"

    As an assertive rider who chooses to ride in the middle of the lane frequently, I can unequivocally state it does not
    Keeps motorist from racing to the next stop light to hurry up and wait
    Seriously??? *pocketa pocketa pocketa*

    Motorists will generally take ANY opportunity to pass UNsafely to race to the stop light to hurry up. Not sure where turbo1889 is getting those results- i'm betting nowhere in this country, nor in holland, anthough passing there would likely be done more safely, but still in a race to the stop light or next traffic signal.

    --------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889
    Cyclists prefer to run smoothly and hit the lights in sequence instead
    yes, and that's why amsterdam and other cycling capitals of Europe use 'Green Wave signal timing" on select routes into and out of cities to benefit rolling bike traffic.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-23-13 at 08:01 AM.
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  7. #607
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    There are ~2800 employees signed up for my employer's bike incentive program and the average bike commute distance is 4.5 miles one way. and believe me very few of those cyclists are lycra-wearing weekend warriors.
    so, out of 2800 employees, the distance averages out to 4.5 miles. that's a lot of riders riding LESS than 4.5 miles, dude. and an outlier to the higher rank would skew that distribution. what the median trip distance, 3 miles?

    short, manageable commutes done by thousands of riders to one company alone.

    And all the evidence suggests more people would ride to spare wheels workplace if the roads leading to and from it were more bicycle friendly with greater consideration for bike traffic. Like they do in Holland.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-23-13 at 05:05 AM.
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  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    Its naive to think that what works in CPH is going to be able to lifted over to north america in a cookie cutter fashion.
    I think you are correct in not just lifting a model from another place and dropping it to another. They are not even always that good models - my city invests heavily in pedestrian/cycle routes and sells it as an alternative to cars, but another alternatives like public transit, bike+bus systems or town bikes are underdeveloped. Different locations have different layouts, different challenges and different opportunities. And, I think in general we cannot look cyclists as one big mass - there's young and old people, fast and slow, etc. - and there's different ways of targeting different groups.

    In Finland we have a good example of what happens with different classes of vehicles on same roads. In addition to bicycles, we also have another "road rage inductor" - 50cc mopeds that are limited to about 30 MPH, popular amongst teenagers. While they are a fuel-saving alternative to cars, they were recently removed from pedestrian routes, and are now required to drive on car lanes on 40 MPH roads. After the change, there was a pretty sharp drop amongst moped users - not surprisingly, kids aren't happy driving "bicycle speeds" amongst cars doing 40 MPH. In addition, drivers are not happy about facing hundreds of these things on the 40 MPH roads around suburbs.
    Last edited by proileri; 04-23-13 at 07:31 AM.

  9. #609
    absent Ferrous Bueller's Avatar
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    For those of you who are interested, but unable to find information on average Dutch pathway speed, Google 'gemiddelde snelheid fietsen'.
    Plenty of consensus on a 18 km/hr avg speed. That includes little kids in the fronts of Bakfietsen, grannies with their panniers loaded with groceries, and everyone between.

    Anecdotally, I've witnessed speeds far slower, lugging into headwinds at 10km/hr, and sustained speeds over 45 on straight smooth sections outside of built up areas. Long distance commuters on road bikes and velomobiles use the pathways as well.

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    so, out of 2800 employees, the distance averages out to 4.5 miles. that's a lot of riders riding LESS than 4.5 miles, dude. and an outlier to the higher rank would skew that distribution. what the median trip distance, 3 miles?
    first of all, a distance of 3 miles or ~5 km is a relatively long distance trip in AMS or CPH. and while i don't have the a median value i doubt its too far from the mean since the sample size has large granularity (see stats 101).

    And all the evidence suggests more people would ride to spare wheels workplace if the roads leading to and from it were more bicycle friendly with greater consideration for bike traffic. Like they do in Holland.
    the roads leading to my employer are bicycle friendly. in fact, they are probably about the same level as AMS in the late 90s.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrous Bueller View Post
    Plenty of consensus on a 18 km/hr avg speed.
    That number is thrown around a lot but actually comes from a study on a new high-speed green wave route and is not an actual average:

    This has been realised on Raadhuis-straat in Amsterdam in the autumn of 2007. Between Dam and Prinsengracht cyclists are confronted by no fewer than 11 traffic lights over a distance of a little over 500 metres. At an average speed of 18 kilometres an hour the cyclists (some10,000 per 24 h) now
    encounter a green light 11 times in a row.
    Its very hard to find an actual average speed for Holland but its probably not too different from Denmark. In other words, by USAnian standards it is absurdly slow. I remember when SF tried to lower the speed limit to 16 km/h on the golden gate bridge. Oh boy...did that product a tidal wave of protest!

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    Okay, I'll bite on this one. I would say its a good thing in low speed in town type traffic. Keeps motorist from racing to the next stop light to hurry up and wait and endangering others by that style of aggressive driving in the process. Cyclists prefer to run smoothly and hit the lights in sequence instead of driving like a maniac like a lot of motorists like to do with "in town" square block grid traffic (Accelerating pedal to the metal cutting in and out of lanes trying to get ahead of the next guy doing over 35 mph at their peak speed point right before they slam on the brakes at the end of the block to wait in line for the next light). Mixing in enough cyclist into the mix who ride in the center of the lane and hold their position running full vehicular style performs a public service and makes the traffic run smoother and much safer for everyone.
    Now on high speed roadways its a different story.
    agree 100%. in fact, pdx has slowed the timing of stop lights on most arterials precisely to make our streets safer for active transportation. i take the lane on broadway (despite the cycle track) every day. due to signal timing i ride at the prevailing motoring speed ~15-17 mph...and its been about a year since i had an altercation with a motorist.

    an example:
    because so many cyclists are now taking the lane on hawthorne (despite the extra-wide 6 foot bike lane), even more tentative cyclists are bypassing the "CPH left" and merging across three lanes of traffic to take the left. a 25 mph speed limit and dozens of assertive cyclists in the lane makes it safer and more convenient for everyone.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-23-13 at 01:17 PM.

  13. #613
    Transportation Cyclist turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    . . . a 25 mph speed limit and dozens of assertive cyclists in the lane makes it safer and more convenient for everyone.
    Yup, my experience exactly. Provided the road I'm riding on has a speed limit of 25-mph or less and I'm "mashing on the pedals" riding strong and keeping a good pace the incidents of road rage I experience directed against me by cagers is significantly less then when I used to ride the same roads FRAPo. Do I still have to deal with the occasional cager who hates bikes, yes but its not as bad as riding FRAPo or even FRAPr on those roads where I would end up with a bunch of Right-Hook and Left-T-Cross confrontations because cagers don't take you seriously until they almost (or actually) hit you and then they get all mad because your "getting out of their way" riding to the right so they expect you to also "get out of their way" when they want to take a right turn or a left turn. Long story short I get less road rage and less confrontations riding "ALL IN" center of lane full vehicular on roads with 25-mph or lower speed limit, extra especially in-town, square block, grid traffic and yes it does calm traffic down a little. Not all of the cagers, that be sure, but then the bicycle density isn't high enough often enough to get the "full impact" around here. On a really nice early summer weekend day where it is beautiful, but not too hot, and there is still a little spring fever left in most peoples bones sometimes you get a day up here where you get to see the full impact. A day where you end up at a four-way stop with multiple bikes waiting in line with the cars at the four ends of the intersection, but those days are the exception. Wish it was like that every day at least for the three seasons but Winter.

    Now once the speed limit of the road gets above 25-mph then things progressively get out of whack, and by the time the speed limit on the road is above 45-mph it has gone completely to H#!! I am one that totally believes in riding FRAPr preferably on the shoulder edge outside of the white fog line (assuming the shoulder edge is suitable for riding at an effective pace) instead of in the main traffic lane on roads with speeds above 45-mph and would prefer that there be a semi-buffered bike lane in place on such roads. But on low speed roads where we can keep a pace that not only is suitable for the road and traffic conditions but is preferable to the crazed stop and go pace heavy motor vehicle traffic with your average bad driver takes then there is absolutely no reason to ride FRAP especially FRAPo and it is a dis-service to more then just yourself to do so. Also no reason for bike lanes or paths, buffered or otherwise all they do in low speed traffic where we as cyclist can keep up is help reinforce cagers ideas about bicycles getting the ^#$%$#^ out of their way and increases danger from Door-ing, Right-Hook-ing, Left-T-Cross-ing, Right-Entry-Mow-Downs, and Nose-Out-Obstructionists.

    I also have no problem with Mo-Peds and in general feel they should be treated just like pedal only bikes on the roads (with the exception that they shouldn't be allowed to get away with buzzing or harassing pedal only bikes just like pedal only bikes aren't allowed to buzz or harass pedestrians). I don't like the commercial versions myself because their pedals are just about worthless and only there because some states require that they be there in order to be street legal. I want fully usable and fully functional pedals, don't mind having a motor gas or electric to help out especially on the hills but I still want to go under pedal power only without the motor with only the extra weight of the motor being the only hindrance and when the motor is being used I want to be able to continue to pedal and have my pedaling make a difference and improve the performance. Thus I build my own e-bikes and motorized-bicycles because commercial Mo-Peds don't have pedal drives that are worth a S%*! and yes I most certainly use a pedal only bike just as much as an e-bike or motorized-bicycle (home-built Mo-Ped made by adding a small motor to a bike rather then adding worthless pedals to a low powered scooter). Pedals come first in my opinion on an e-bike or Mo-Ped and the motor is just an add on to supplement the human power, not the other way around, and especially not pedals that can't practically be used and are only there to meet legal requirements.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 04-23-13 at 02:33 PM.

  14. #614
    absent Ferrous Bueller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    That number is thrown around a lot but actually comes from a study on a new high-speed green wave route and is not an actual average:
    It comes from a lot of places. Including this study.
    Its very hard to find an actual average speed for Holland but its probably not too different from Denmark. In other words, by USAnian standards it is absurdly slow.
    You and John Forester should travel to NL together to test that supposition. As I indicated before, the average represents all age groups and fitness levels. Many are indeed slow, but many are startlingly fast. If you were to go cruise the Dutch pathway system imagining yourself to be the fastest on it, your learning curve would be hilariously steep.

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    agree 100%. in fact, pdx has slowed the timing of stop lights on most arterials precisely to make our streets safer for active transportation. i take the lane on broadway (despite the cycle track) every day. due to signal timing i ride at the prevailing motoring speed ~15-17 mph...and its been about a year since i had an altercation with a motorist.

    an example:
    because so many cyclists are now taking the lane on hawthorne (despite the extra-wide 6 foot bike lane), even more tentative cyclists are bypassing the "CPH left" and merging across three lanes of traffic to take the left. a 25 mph speed limit and dozens of assertive cyclists in the lane makes it safer and more convenient for everyone.
    Sure. Works for the fast and furious. But not for my 12 years old daughter, not even on her 24" Fondriest. Nor would it work for my parents, or for the majority of the other hundreds of thousands cyclists here or in Holland. So, you'd be left with cycling as basically a sport, not as utility cycling.

    But perhaps you don't care.

  16. #616
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    It's very funny to see a bicyclist in Portland trying to convince the forum what's going to take portland cycling to the next level is cyclists in the lane next to six foot wide bike lanes.

    the only reason there's all those cyclists in portland to begin with are the bikelanes, the springwater, and considerate accommodation at the bridges and bridge approaches.

    and it has every prediction by the transportation planners there of stalling out -

    unless Portland takes it to the level of, oh, you guessed it- the cycling capitols of europe. not cyclists 'taking the lane' in force.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-23-13 at 02:48 PM.
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  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    That number is thrown around a lot but actually comes from a study on a new high-speed green wave route and is not an actual average:



    Its very hard to find an actual average speed for Holland but its probably not too different from Denmark. In other words, by USAnian standards it is absurdly slow. I remember when SF tried to lower the speed limit to 16 km/h on the golden gate bridge. Oh boy...did that product a tidal wave of protest!
    The green waves on, say, Nörrebrogade in Copenhagen are timed for 20 km/h. That's way too low for me if I had my own way, but actually seems to suit the average riders quite well. The huge majority just roll happily through one green light after the other. I can live with it (occasionally jumping a red light), because it's for the common good.

    Anyway, that the timing works so well for so many, seems to suggest that really, the median is somewhere around 20 km/h.

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    first of all, a distance of 3 miles or ~5 km is a relatively long distance trip in AMS or CPH.
    For shopping, perhaps. Not for commuting, certainly.

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    There's an old guy that habitually rides an adult trike in Kalispell, MT for most of the Summer months that never gets above 10-mph. Sometimes he rides on the roads with traffic in the lane, and sometimes he rides on the sidewalk. He just takes the path of least resistance and when the sidewalk is wide enough and clear enough and the road has heavy enough fast enough traffic to make the sidewalk the better choice in his mind he uses it and when its the other way around and in his mind the road is the better choice in his mind he takes it - in the lane and heavy vehicle traffic just have to deal with it. I've seen him around for years and he still seems to be doing just fine. Long story short, you don't have to be fast to ride in the road on 25-mph or less low speed, in town, square block, grid traffic. Yes, when he knows traffic is heavy and fast and he knows there is a good unobstructed sidewalk available he uses it instead. Long story short, I rarely say this and it hurts to say it but if you really are so slow you can't mix with that kind of traffic you can probably safely mix with pedestrian traffic on the sidewalk. You won't ever catch me hollering "Get on the SideWalk !!!" to any cyclist on the road anywhere regardless of how slow they were going but I'm not going to give you a hard time if you choose to ride there if your riding slow enough that your not a danger to pedestrians since after all if you ride on the sidewalk you are in "their space". Now if your bombing down the sidewalk at full clip in the tuck with a "Get out of my way, or I'll run you down !!!" attitude towards pedestrians then I might try to let you know that it would be better off for everyone if you were to ride on the road vehicular style.

  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrous Bueller View Post
    It comes from a lot of places. Including this study.
    Meh:
    Zo is de gemiddelde snelheid tussen 8.30 en 9.30 uur 2 km/h hoger dan tussen 15.00 en 16.00 uur.
    even mikael colville andersen has commented on the weirdness of the dutch when it comes to cycling speed stats. its always some podunk study of a completely biased cycle path stretch.

    If you were to go cruise the Dutch pathway system imagining yourself to be the fastest on it
    on a very windy day i am sure i would be passed by the occasional velomobile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Of course to get to that sort of cycling density, some 20-25% of the current driving population in the US will have to take to bicycles... which isn't likely to happen as long as gas is cheap (uh, supplemented by government)....
    Yup, let's not forget that gas price in the Netherlands is currently $8.30/gal, a SUV like a Toyota Land Cruiser V8 costs $200,000 and comes with an ownership tax of $2500 per year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    on a very windy day i am sure i would be passed by the occasional velomobile.
    Those windy days must seem to follow you around.

  23. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    For shopping, perhaps. Not for commuting, certainly.
    perhaps...but i've not seen the numbers broken down like this.

  24. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    It's very funny to see a bicyclist in Portland trying to convince the forum what's going to take portland cycling to the next level is cyclists in the lane next to six foot wide bike lanes.

    the only reason there's all those cyclists in portland to begin with are the bikelanes, the springwater, and considerate accommodation at the bridges and bridge approaches.

    and it has every prediction by the transportation planners there of stalling out -

    unless Portland takes it to the level of, oh, you guessed it- the cycling capitols of europe. not cyclists 'taking the lane' in force.
    i think you would be shocked at how many cyclists still take the lane instead of using our fine infrastructure. that is my point. we need separated infrastructure for the young and cautious and "calmed" roads for the more accomplished. in pdx as mode share and infrastructure has increased, i have seen the percentage of cyclists taking the lane also increas. ultimately, i believe driver-less cars and peak petro will make cycling infrastructure superfluous (except on fast arterials-highways).

    unless Portland takes it to the level of, oh, you guessed it- the cycling capitols of europe. not cyclists 'taking the lane' in force.
    comparing mode share in europe to mode share in the usa is an apples to oranges comparison. if you hop on your bike for a short trip to the station in cph they count you as a "cyclist". our stats only count cyclists when the *majority* of their commuting trips are by bike. you can bike every day in pdx and still not count as a cyclist when it comes to census mode share.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-23-13 at 03:27 PM.

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    On a very busy stretch, Enghavevej-Kingosgade in copenhagen, there was no bike path back in 1996. Number of bike accidents: 252. In 2010, with bike path and -lane: 92.

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