Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 27 of 29 FirstFirst ... 172526272829 LastLast
Results 651 to 675 of 702
  1. #651
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    in the usa some cycling advocates believe that we can increase mode share be building a few demonstration patches of separated infrastructure. imo, the kind of networks seen in holland will only occur when there is also significant progress in education, liability law, enforcement, and traffic calming.

    I agree that Rome wasn't built in one day.

  2. #652
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    20,029
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    I think you mean "effective."
    I meant efficient, as in "i have no problem with "greenways" -- they are fine for weekend leisure riding and for children. when i actually want to get from point A to B efficiently i avoid them."

    The term is often used by Effective/Vehicular Cycling ideologues when championing their distaste for bicycling facilities, because anything that they think might slow them down from maximum speed is considered not conducive to "efficient" cycling. In other words, speed/"efficiency" is their top priority at all times.

  3. #653
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    hembrow is being unfair. haren was a first attempt and was only a few roads. in drachten monderman used both shared space and traffic calming to entirely redesign the entire town:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN5N9w6LsXc

    i'm a monderman fan even though i lean towards "low car" or "car free" zones. (i don't need a car...so why would anyone else? )

  4. #654
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    In other words, speed/"efficiency" is their top priority at all times.
    sacré bleu! god forbid that i should desire a direct route with a minimum of delays! and as the number of strong and confident cyclists increases, god forbid, that they would dare to "take lanes" from the all important motorist.

  5. #655
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,732
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    I meant efficient, as in "i have no problem with "greenways" -- they are fine for weekend leisure riding and for children. when i actually want to get from point A to B efficiently i avoid them."

    The term is often used by Effective/Vehicular Cycling ideologues when championing their distaste for bicycling facilities, because anything that they think might slow them down from maximum speed is considered not conducive to "efficient" cycling. In other words, speed/"efficiency" is their top priority at all times.
    Wow, then those guys must not ever ride in traffic jams... you know where all those 4 wheel boxy things get in the way and stop moving, thus requiring peds and "efficient" cyclists to have to thread between them at about "walking speed..." it sure seems like traffic jams would limit one's ability to achieve "maximum speed."

  6. #656
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    I think you misunderstand what the Dutch Woonerf is about. Yes, the word literally translates "neighborhood". In traffical reality though, Woonerf is a place where cars may enter, but 100% on the conditions of pedestrians. Children are safe to play in the "streets" (which are hardly recognizable as regular streets but rather act like prolonged yards), and even cyclists must go very slowly.

    What you're talking about is rather "Shared Streets" - and it's a concept that the Dutch are leaving behind them after having tried it. Such streets end up being used on car terms, meaning that neither pedestrians nor cyclists feel safe there. (except those who are strong and daring)
    portlands has an elaborate network of neighborhood greenways, the latest vanguard in US cycle planning, and remarkably like european home zones or woonerven.

    spare wheel shamelessly and fallaciously groups arterial roads in with greenway space, and shows just how fringe the argument is. Willing to defend the proud and confident style of vehikularism amist arterial vehicle traffic and all its attendant negative externalities; namely, a lack of people cycling! - in a discussion of dutch cycling method and result.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-24-13 at 02:44 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  7. #657
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    i see you are still experiencing cognitive dissonance
    not me, you were the poster first claiming arterial roads in portland were NW woonerven, then you lamented the lack of bike lanes on the same roads...... get a grip, you live in portland man. the people you are riding amidst largely ride as a result of the bike policies and practices that led to portland becomming so bikeable.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  8. #658
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    and as the number of strong and confident cyclists increases...
    Those are not where the real cycling potential lies.

    As for efficiency, as usual the Dutch know best. Bike routes are mostly the most direct and fastest way of getting from A to B (if the distance is more than 1 km, that is). They don't lead through woonerfs.

  9. #659
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    spare wheel shamelessly and fallaciously groups arterial roads in with greenway space
    not me, you were the poster first claiming arterial roads in portland were NW woonerven

    i made a somwhat flippant comment about "15-25 mph" arterials that you have desperately attempted to twist into something else. it was you that brought up sandy, mlk, and powell, not i. are mlk, sandy, and powell 15-25 mph roads? nope.


    then you lamented the lack of bike lanes on the same roads.
    for once you are not misrepresenting what i stated. i am a fan of well-designed bike lanes. in particular, buffered and colored lanes.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-24-13 at 04:31 PM.

  10. #660
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Those are not where the real cycling potential lies.

    As for efficiency, as usual the Dutch know best. Bike routes are mostly the most direct and fastest way of getting from A to B (if the distance is more than 1 km, that is). They don't lead through woonerfs.
    i agree.

    one of the things i like about dutch infrastructure is that, for the most part, it does not treat cyclists as second class traffic. portland's bike boulevards/greenways are often, imo, very second class.

  11. #661
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    20,029
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Wow, then those guys must not ever ride in traffic jams... you know where all those 4 wheel boxy things get in the way and stop moving, thus requiring peds and "efficient" cyclists to have to thread between them at about "walking speed..." it sure seems like traffic jams would limit one's ability to achieve "maximum speed."
    Don't forget a lot of these pedal to the medal bicyclists probably spend an awful lot of their efficient bike riding time drafting one of their pals on their suburban training rides.

  12. #662
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Wow, then those guys must not ever ride in traffic jams... you know where all those 4 wheel boxy things get in the way and stop moving, thus requiring peds and "efficient" cyclists to have to thread between them at about "walking speed..." it sure seems like traffic jams would limit one's ability to achieve "maximum speed."
    No, not at all. As truly competent cyclists they can filter at 25 mph. Though not their maximum speed (of course) it's acceptable.

  13. #663
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    No, not at all. As truly competent cyclists they can filter at 25 mph. Though not their maximum speed (of course) it's acceptable.

    filtering is not illegal in oregon. and you are right -- i do slow down a bit when i filter.

  14. #664
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Copenhagen
    My Bikes
    A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
    Posts
    1,827
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    filtering is not illegal in oregon. and you are right -- i do slow down a bit when i filter.
    A bit? Heh. Some death wish, there!

  15. #665
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare wheel
    as the number of strong and confident cyclists increases..


    riiiight. Might want to check that feint with Roger Geller at the Portland Department of Transportation.

    I imagine spare wheel, being from portland, has read PDOTs' excellent monograph the four types of cyclist

    the strong and confident are fully represented out in portland. major hurdles remain in developing a city where more riders ride, not just those willing to 'take the lane' on arterial roads around portland.

    Expecting a significant upswing in strong and confident riders willing to simply 'take the lane' in Portland is a classic example of the vehicularist fallacy that has left America a dismally ridden nation.

    The dutch do it much better. Portland, NYC, Denver, Minneapolis, are all on the right track, but more clearly needs to be done.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-25-13 at 04:44 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  16. #666
    genec genec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    san diego
    My Bikes
    custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
    Posts
    22,732
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post


    riiiight. Might want to check that feint with Roger Geller at the Portland Department of Transportation.

    I imagine spare wheel, being from portland, has read PDOTs' excellent monograph the four types of cyclist

    the strong and confident are fully represented out in portland. major hurdles remain in developing a city where more riders ride, not just those willing to 'take the lane' on arterial roads around portland.

    Expecting a significant upswing in strong and confident riders willing to simply 'take the lane' in Portland is a classic example of the vehicularist fallacy that has left America a dismally ridden nation.

    The dutch do it much better. Portland, NYC, Denver, Minneapolis, are all on the right track, but more clearly needs to be done.
    Interesting read... notice how the nearly 1% or so of "strong and confident" cyclists coincides with the nearly 2% of cycling modal share where vehicular cycling is promoted. This is Foresters "effective" cycling bunch.

  17. #667
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i am absolutely not fearless. geller's stereotype was designed to denigrate. geller is intentionally trying to cast anyone who criticizes his brand of advocacy as some sort of ninja fixie rider scofflaw. this seems to be the recurring theme in these debates. when a cyclist actually dares to criticize poorly-designed infrastructure they are often cast as some sort of foaming at the mouth extremist.

    and when human beings die due to poorly designed "european" (sarcasm) infrastructure the problem is that cyclists are riding too fast:

    The 85% speed* for cyclists observed overtaking right-turning vehicles was approximately 18 mph, which we find to be fast speed for the condition.
    god forbid that cyclist might actually want to cycle under the speed limit. that is clearly too fast for conditions.

    http://bikeportland.org/2012/10/16/c...859#more-78859

    http://www.portlandmercury.com/Blogt...crease-crashes
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-25-13 at 09:10 AM.

  18. #668
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    20,029
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Interesting read... notice how the nearly 1% or so of "strong and confident" cyclists coincides with the nearly 2% of cycling modal share where vehicular cycling is promoted. This is Foresters "effective" cycling bunch.
    Don't believe that Foresters "effective" cycling bunch has anything more than an insignificant slice of any cycling population anywhere, no matter how much vehicular cycling is promoted, or what the cycling modal share.

    Also don't confuse or conflate "strong and confident" cyclists with Foresters "effective" cycling bunch; not all "strong and confident" cyclists buy into the ideology espoused by the effective cycling guru.

  19. #669
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    major hurdles remain in developing a city where more riders ride, not just those willing to 'take the lane' on arterial roads around portland.
    do you have some sort of language issue? i have stated multiple times that i am a proponent of infrastructure on arterials and commercial roads.

    Expecting a significant upswing in strong and confident riders willing to simply 'take the lane' in Portland is a classic example of the vehicularist fallacy that has left America a dismally ridden nation.
    the black and white absolutism of your statement is a sight to behold. the fact that i have seen an increase in the number of cyclists taking the lane is simply not permitted in your narrow vision of cycling. i can visualize you stamping your foot at the bottom of the hawthorne bridge while screaming at cyclists to stay in the bike lane.
    Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-25-13 at 10:21 AM.

  20. #670
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Also don't confuse or conflate "strong and confident" cyclists with Foresters "effective" cycling bunch; not all "strong and confident" cyclists buy into the ideology espoused by the effective cycling guru.
    ILTB, you need to get your terminology down.

    Its not strong and confident. It's strong and fearless.

    In other words, people like beks are "enthusiastic and confident" while people who criticise geller and other so-called advocates look like this:

    Attachment 312964

  21. #671
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel
    geller's stereotype was designed to denigrate. geller is intentionally trying to cast anyone who criticizes his brand of advocacy as some sort of ninja fixie rider scofflaw.
    alternately, trying to see Portland break double digit cycling, in aspiration of participation akin to the dutch.

    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel
    the fact that i have seen an increase in the number of cyclists taking the lane is simply not permitted in your narrow vision of cycling. i can visualize you stamping your foot at the bottom of the hawthorne bridge while screaming at cyclists to stay in the bike lane.
    never going to get portland to double digits. i'm happy there's more riders 'taking the lane by the strong and the fearless' but it never will, by all accounts, account for siginificant growth in cycling.

    it wasn't in amsterdam, and it won't in portland.

    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel
    i am a proponent of infrastructure on arterials
    would you make up your mind already? Are they woonerven, or do they need bikelanes? My, your position on arterial roads is chronically muddled.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 04-25-13 at 10:34 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #672
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    would you make up your mind already? Are they woonerven, or do they need bikelanes? My, your position on arterial roads is chronically muddled.

    imo, it is so called advocates who would rather focus on meandering greenways instead of painting nice wide buffered bike lanes on busy commercial roads that are muddled.

    to quote rex burkholder (current metro councillor and bike transportation alliance founder):

    http://bikeportland.org/2012/03/09/c...responds-68619

    "Its [sic] a wonder what will happen when you actually make cycling a priority rather than “accommodating” cyclists. In Portland, we have unfortunately stalled and the City, with the acquiescence of the Bicycle Transportation Alliance, are pursuing a separate but unequal strategy of designating side streets as bike boulevards...
    ... When I helped found and led the BTA in the 1990s, I thought it would take twenty years to get to Dutch cycling levels and preached patience. Well, twenty years have passed and we’re not even close. For example, if I want to ride from downtown to the Hawthorne district, I lose my lane and am encouraged to detour a half mile out of direction to a bike boulevard..

    The simple act of turning four lane roads into three lanes with bike lanes would improve travel for everyone, even car traffic but is seen as an insufferable loss by the traffic engineers and the motorists. This is why Minneapolis took our “Best Cycling City” crown away. The Minne Mayor is committed to using the ROW better, not kowtowing to old paradigms."

  23. #673
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    so, more concessions cyclists taking the lane isn't the solution. wow, such a retreat. arterial roads aren't woonerven after all!

    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  24. #674
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    pdx
    My Bikes
    2007 carpe diem frame custom build, trek 7.9 frame custom build, custom built chinese carbon fiber road bike, shopping bike
    Posts
    2,900
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    arterial roads aren't woonerven after all!
    and neither are greenways.

  25. #675
    Senior Member mr_pedro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    472
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Just so we know what we are talking about, this is an example of how a woonerf looks like in the Netherlands: http://goo.gl/maps/YEVdd
    It is just totally irrelevant to speak about how this infrastructure slows down bicycles. First of all it hardly slows down bicycles and secondly these are living areas where all traffic has just left home or is just coming home and typically is part of the first or last 30 seconds of the trip. Why should you want/need to drive/ride at top speed right up to your drive way?

Page 27 of 29 FirstFirst ... 172526272829 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •