Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > > >

Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-24-13, 12:49 PM   #651
hagen2456
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
in the usa some cycling advocates believe that we can increase mode share be building a few demonstration patches of separated infrastructure. imo, the kind of networks seen in holland will only occur when there is also significant progress in education, liability law, enforcement, and traffic calming.

I agree that Rome wasn't built in one day.
hagen2456 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 01:03 PM   #652
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
I think you mean "effective."
I meant efficient, as in "i have no problem with "greenways" -- they are fine for weekend leisure riding and for children. when i actually want to get from point A to B efficiently i avoid them."

The term is often used by Effective/Vehicular Cycling ideologues when championing their distaste for bicycling facilities, because anything that they think might slow them down from maximum speed is considered not conducive to "efficient" cycling. In other words, speed/"efficiency" is their top priority at all times.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 01:25 PM   #653
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
hembrow is being unfair. haren was a first attempt and was only a few roads. in drachten monderman used both shared space and traffic calming to entirely redesign the entire town:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN5N9w6LsXc

i'm a monderman fan even though i lean towards "low car" or "car free" zones. (i don't need a car...so why would anyone else? )
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 01:41 PM   #654
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
In other words, speed/"efficiency" is their top priority at all times.
sacré bleu! god forbid that i should desire a direct route with a minimum of delays! and as the number of strong and confident cyclists increases, god forbid, that they would dare to "take lanes" from the all important motorist.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 02:02 PM   #655
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,784
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 469 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I meant efficient, as in "i have no problem with "greenways" -- they are fine for weekend leisure riding and for children. when i actually want to get from point A to B efficiently i avoid them."

The term is often used by Effective/Vehicular Cycling ideologues when championing their distaste for bicycling facilities, because anything that they think might slow them down from maximum speed is considered not conducive to "efficient" cycling. In other words, speed/"efficiency" is their top priority at all times.
Wow, then those guys must not ever ride in traffic jams... you know where all those 4 wheel boxy things get in the way and stop moving, thus requiring peds and "efficient" cyclists to have to thread between them at about "walking speed..." it sure seems like traffic jams would limit one's ability to achieve "maximum speed."
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 02:41 PM   #656
Bekologist
totally louche
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
I think you misunderstand what the Dutch Woonerf is about. Yes, the word literally translates "neighborhood". In traffical reality though, Woonerf is a place where cars may enter, but 100% on the conditions of pedestrians. Children are safe to play in the "streets" (which are hardly recognizable as regular streets but rather act like prolonged yards), and even cyclists must go very slowly.

What you're talking about is rather "Shared Streets" - and it's a concept that the Dutch are leaving behind them after having tried it. Such streets end up being used on car terms, meaning that neither pedestrians nor cyclists feel safe there. (except those who are strong and daring)
portlands has an elaborate network of neighborhood greenways, the latest vanguard in US cycle planning, and remarkably like european home zones or woonerven.

spare wheel shamelessly and fallaciously groups arterial roads in with greenway space, and shows just how fringe the argument is. Willing to defend the proud and confident style of vehikularism amist arterial vehicle traffic and all its attendant negative externalities; namely, a lack of people cycling! - in a discussion of dutch cycling method and result.

Last edited by Bekologist; 04-24-13 at 02:44 PM.
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 02:48 PM   #657
Bekologist
totally louche
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
i see you are still experiencing cognitive dissonance
not me, you were the poster first claiming arterial roads in portland were NW woonerven, then you lamented the lack of bike lanes on the same roads...... get a grip, you live in portland man. the people you are riding amidst largely ride as a result of the bike policies and practices that led to portland becomming so bikeable.
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 03:59 PM   #658
hagen2456
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
and as the number of strong and confident cyclists increases...
Those are not where the real cycling potential lies.

As for efficiency, as usual the Dutch know best. Bike routes are mostly the most direct and fastest way of getting from A to B (if the distance is more than 1 km, that is). They don't lead through woonerfs.
hagen2456 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 04:24 PM   #659
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
spare wheel shamelessly and fallaciously groups arterial roads in with greenway space
Quote:
not me, you were the poster first claiming arterial roads in portland were NW woonerven

i made a somwhat flippant comment about "15-25 mph" arterials that you have desperately attempted to twist into something else. it was you that brought up sandy, mlk, and powell, not i. are mlk, sandy, and powell 15-25 mph roads? nope.


Quote:
then you lamented the lack of bike lanes on the same roads.
for once you are not misrepresenting what i stated. i am a fan of well-designed bike lanes. in particular, buffered and colored lanes.

Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-24-13 at 04:31 PM.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 04:31 PM   #660
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
Those are not where the real cycling potential lies.

As for efficiency, as usual the Dutch know best. Bike routes are mostly the most direct and fastest way of getting from A to B (if the distance is more than 1 km, that is). They don't lead through woonerfs.
i agree.

one of the things i like about dutch infrastructure is that, for the most part, it does not treat cyclists as second class traffic. portland's bike boulevards/greenways are often, imo, very second class.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 05:26 PM   #661
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Wow, then those guys must not ever ride in traffic jams... you know where all those 4 wheel boxy things get in the way and stop moving, thus requiring peds and "efficient" cyclists to have to thread between them at about "walking speed..." it sure seems like traffic jams would limit one's ability to achieve "maximum speed."
Don't forget a lot of these pedal to the medal bicyclists probably spend an awful lot of their efficient bike riding time drafting one of their pals on their suburban training rides.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 06:34 PM   #662
hagen2456
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Wow, then those guys must not ever ride in traffic jams... you know where all those 4 wheel boxy things get in the way and stop moving, thus requiring peds and "efficient" cyclists to have to thread between them at about "walking speed..." it sure seems like traffic jams would limit one's ability to achieve "maximum speed."
No, not at all. As truly competent cyclists they can filter at 25 mph. Though not their maximum speed (of course) it's acceptable.
hagen2456 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-13, 07:53 PM   #663
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
No, not at all. As truly competent cyclists they can filter at 25 mph. Though not their maximum speed (of course) it's acceptable.

filtering is not illegal in oregon. and you are right -- i do slow down a bit when i filter.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 04:14 AM   #664
hagen2456
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Copenhagen
Bikes: A load of ancient, old and semi-vintage bikes of divers sorts
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
filtering is not illegal in oregon. and you are right -- i do slow down a bit when i filter.
A bit? Heh. Some death wish, there!
hagen2456 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 04:37 AM   #665
Bekologist
totally louche
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare wheel
as the number of strong and confident cyclists increases..


riiiight. Might want to check that feint with Roger Geller at the Portland Department of Transportation.

I imagine spare wheel, being from portland, has read PDOTs' excellent monograph the four types of cyclist

the strong and confident are fully represented out in portland. major hurdles remain in developing a city where more riders ride, not just those willing to 'take the lane' on arterial roads around portland.

Expecting a significant upswing in strong and confident riders willing to simply 'take the lane' in Portland is a classic example of the vehicularist fallacy that has left America a dismally ridden nation.

The dutch do it much better. Portland, NYC, Denver, Minneapolis, are all on the right track, but more clearly needs to be done.

Last edited by Bekologist; 04-25-13 at 04:44 AM.
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 08:18 AM   #666
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,784
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 469 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post


riiiight. Might want to check that feint with Roger Geller at the Portland Department of Transportation.

I imagine spare wheel, being from portland, has read PDOTs' excellent monograph the four types of cyclist

the strong and confident are fully represented out in portland. major hurdles remain in developing a city where more riders ride, not just those willing to 'take the lane' on arterial roads around portland.

Expecting a significant upswing in strong and confident riders willing to simply 'take the lane' in Portland is a classic example of the vehicularist fallacy that has left America a dismally ridden nation.

The dutch do it much better. Portland, NYC, Denver, Minneapolis, are all on the right track, but more clearly needs to be done.
Interesting read... notice how the nearly 1% or so of "strong and confident" cyclists coincides with the nearly 2% of cycling modal share where vehicular cycling is promoted. This is Foresters "effective" cycling bunch.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 08:48 AM   #667
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
i am absolutely not fearless. geller's stereotype was designed to denigrate. geller is intentionally trying to cast anyone who criticizes his brand of advocacy as some sort of ninja fixie rider scofflaw. this seems to be the recurring theme in these debates. when a cyclist actually dares to criticize poorly-designed infrastructure they are often cast as some sort of foaming at the mouth extremist.

and when human beings die due to poorly designed "european" (sarcasm) infrastructure the problem is that cyclists are riding too fast:

Quote:
The 85% speed* for cyclists observed overtaking right-turning vehicles was approximately 18 mph, which we find to be fast speed for the condition.
god forbid that cyclist might actually want to cycle under the speed limit. that is clearly too fast for conditions.

http://bikeportland.org/2012/10/16/c...859#more-78859

http://www.portlandmercury.com/Blogt...crease-crashes

Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-25-13 at 09:10 AM.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 08:57 AM   #668
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Interesting read... notice how the nearly 1% or so of "strong and confident" cyclists coincides with the nearly 2% of cycling modal share where vehicular cycling is promoted. This is Foresters "effective" cycling bunch.
Don't believe that Foresters "effective" cycling bunch has anything more than an insignificant slice of any cycling population anywhere, no matter how much vehicular cycling is promoted, or what the cycling modal share.

Also don't confuse or conflate "strong and confident" cyclists with Foresters "effective" cycling bunch; not all "strong and confident" cyclists buy into the ideology espoused by the effective cycling guru.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 09:09 AM   #669
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
major hurdles remain in developing a city where more riders ride, not just those willing to 'take the lane' on arterial roads around portland.
do you have some sort of language issue? i have stated multiple times that i am a proponent of infrastructure on arterials and commercial roads.

Quote:
Expecting a significant upswing in strong and confident riders willing to simply 'take the lane' in Portland is a classic example of the vehicularist fallacy that has left America a dismally ridden nation.
the black and white absolutism of your statement is a sight to behold. the fact that i have seen an increase in the number of cyclists taking the lane is simply not permitted in your narrow vision of cycling. i can visualize you stamping your foot at the bottom of the hawthorne bridge while screaming at cyclists to stay in the bike lane.

Last edited by spare_wheel; 04-25-13 at 10:21 AM.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 09:16 AM   #670
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Also don't confuse or conflate "strong and confident" cyclists with Foresters "effective" cycling bunch; not all "strong and confident" cyclists buy into the ideology espoused by the effective cycling guru.
ILTB, you need to get your terminology down.

Its not strong and confident. It's strong and fearless.

In other words, people like beks are "enthusiastic and confident" while people who criticise geller and other so-called advocates look like this:

spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 10:30 AM   #671
Bekologist
totally louche
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
geller's stereotype was designed to denigrate. geller is intentionally trying to cast anyone who criticizes his brand of advocacy as some sort of ninja fixie rider scofflaw.
alternately, trying to see Portland break double digit cycling, in aspiration of participation akin to the dutch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
the fact that i have seen an increase in the number of cyclists taking the lane is simply not permitted in your narrow vision of cycling. i can visualize you stamping your foot at the bottom of the hawthorne bridge while screaming at cyclists to stay in the bike lane.
never going to get portland to double digits. i'm happy there's more riders 'taking the lane by the strong and the fearless' but it never will, by all accounts, account for siginificant growth in cycling.

it wasn't in amsterdam, and it won't in portland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel
i am a proponent of infrastructure on arterials
would you make up your mind already? Are they woonerven, or do they need bikelanes? My, your position on arterial roads is chronically muddled.

Last edited by Bekologist; 04-25-13 at 10:34 AM.
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 10:48 AM   #672
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
would you make up your mind already? Are they woonerven, or do they need bikelanes? My, your position on arterial roads is chronically muddled.

imo, it is so called advocates who would rather focus on meandering greenways instead of painting nice wide buffered bike lanes on busy commercial roads that are muddled.

to quote rex burkholder (current metro councillor and bike transportation alliance founder):

http://bikeportland.org/2012/03/09/c...responds-68619

Quote:
"Its [sic] a wonder what will happen when you actually make cycling a priority rather than “accommodating” cyclists. In Portland, we have unfortunately stalled and the City, with the acquiescence of the Bicycle Transportation Alliance, are pursuing a separate but unequal strategy of designating side streets as bike boulevards...
... When I helped found and led the BTA in the 1990s, I thought it would take twenty years to get to Dutch cycling levels and preached patience. Well, twenty years have passed and we’re not even close. For example, if I want to ride from downtown to the Hawthorne district, I lose my lane and am encouraged to detour a half mile out of direction to a bike boulevard..

The simple act of turning four lane roads into three lanes with bike lanes would improve travel for everyone, even car traffic but is seen as an insufferable loss by the traffic engineers and the motorists. This is why Minneapolis took our “Best Cycling City” crown away. The Minne Mayor is committed to using the ROW better, not kowtowing to old paradigms."

spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 11:11 AM   #673
Bekologist
totally louche
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
so, more concessions cyclists taking the lane isn't the solution. wow, such a retreat. arterial roads aren't woonerven after all!

Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 11:23 AM   #674
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
arterial roads aren't woonerven after all!
and neither are greenways.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-13, 11:59 AM   #675
mr_pedro
Senior Member
 
mr_pedro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 476
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just so we know what we are talking about, this is an example of how a woonerf looks like in the Netherlands: http://goo.gl/maps/YEVdd
It is just totally irrelevant to speak about how this infrastructure slows down bicycles. First of all it hardly slows down bicycles and secondly these are living areas where all traffic has just left home or is just coming home and typically is part of the first or last 30 seconds of the trip. Why should you want/need to drive/ride at top speed right up to your drive way?
mr_pedro is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:18 AM.