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  1. #676
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
    Just so we know what we are talking about, this is an example of how a woonerf looks like in the Netherlands: http://goo.gl/maps/YEVdd
    It is just totally irrelevant to speak about how this infrastructure slows down bicycles. First of all it hardly slows down bicycles and secondly these are living areas where all traffic has just left home or is just coming home and typically is part of the first or last 30 seconds of the trip. Why should you want/need to drive/ride at top speed right up to your drive way?
    Because Effective Cyclists™ must always ride most "efficiently." Nothing less will do.

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
    Just so we know what we are talking about, this is an example of how a woonerf looks like in the Netherlands: http://goo.gl/maps/YEVdd
    It is just totally irrelevant to speak about how this infrastructure slows down bicycles. First of all it hardly slows down bicycles and secondly these are living areas where all traffic has just left home or is just coming home and typically is part of the first or last 30 seconds of the trip. Why should you want/need to drive/ride at top speed right up to your drive way?
    Just taking a look around, the thing that struck me about the link and area offered (and I did go to other spots on the map, such as here: http://goo.gl/maps/C5HWL ) is that much of what I saw was human scaled... not built like a freeway. Compare the link in the parens in the last sentence to this spot in the US... http://goo.gl/maps/qLtvl This is in a residential area, note the 3 lanes wide (6 lanes total) road and it is easy to see that there is a different treatment given to the automobile in these different countries. In the US, the motor vehicle is given a much higher status.

  3. #678
    Senior Member mr_pedro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec View Post
    Just taking a look around, the thing that struck me about the link and area offered (and I did go to other spots on the map, such as here: http://goo.gl/maps/C5HWL ) is that much of what I saw was human scaled... not built like a freeway. Compare the link in the parens in the last sentence to this spot in the US... http://goo.gl/maps/qLtvl This is in a residential area, note the 3 lanes wide (6 lanes total) road and it is easy to see that there is a different treatment given to the automobile in these different countries. In the US, the motor vehicle is given a much higher status.
    Exactly, that location is fairly new, maybe 20 or 30 years, but it is a small town. You can also look at Rotterdam which is a major Dutch city and also fairly new having been rebuilt after bombings in WWII: http://goo.gl/maps/7fWTU
    Here you can see already more space for cars with even 2 lanes in both directions for the major streets but it is still a place where people are shopping, walking, cycling, there is public transportation in the middle and it doesn't feel like a freeway where only cars are welcome.

  4. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
    Exactly, that location is fairly new, maybe 20 or 30 years, but it is a small town. You can also look at Rotterdam which is a major Dutch city and also fairly new having been rebuilt after bombings in WWII: http://goo.gl/maps/7fWTU
    Here you can see already more space for cars with even 2 lanes in both directions for the major streets but it is still a place where people are shopping, walking, cycling, there is public transportation in the middle and it doesn't feel like a freeway where only cars are welcome.
    the traffic calming in that image or rotterdam is truly amazing to see. my only quibble is the narrowness of the cycle path. it looks like it might be hard to pass other cyclists, for example. munich is now removing these kind of old-style narrow fully separated cycle tracks and replacing them with wide 6 foot bike lanes:

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Seidl...88.23,,0,19.86

  5. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    the traffic calming in that image or rotterdam is truly amazing to see. my only quibble is the narrowness of the cycle path. it looks like it might be hard to pass other cyclists, for example. munich is now removing these kind of old-style narrow fully separated cycle tracks and replacing them with wide 6 foot bike lanes:

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Seidl...88.23,,0,19.86
    And Rotterdam is known as the least bike-friendly place in Holland, as far as I know.

    Here's that Munich bike lane a little further to the north.

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Seidl...,,0,-1.22&z=21

    I'm not impressed. Though it's better than nothing if a street has heavy, fast traffic, it's way too narrow - even though the sidewalk is quite wide most of the way. In fact, they should have carved a much wider bike path from the sidewalk.
    Last edited by hagen2456; 04-25-13 at 04:23 PM.

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    And Rotterdam is known as the least bike-friendly place in Holland, as far as I know.

    Here's that Munich bike lane a little further to the north.

    https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Seidl...,,0,-1.22&z=21

    I'm not impressed. Though it's better than nothing if a street has heavy, fast traffic, it's way too narrow - even though the sidewalk is quite wide most of the way. In fact, they should have carved a much wider bike path from the sidewalk.
    that part was not updated on google streetview and is showing the old "cycle track".

  7. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
    that part was not updated on google streetview and is showing the old "cycle track".
    Yes, I suspected that. Doesn't change the point, though: That they should have carved out a real, usefull cycle path from the abundant sidewalk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cruiserhead View Post

    This is the man in question?
    The video is interesting. He has many interesting and true observations and research at the beginning. This is all observational and stuff that he looks at in a car-centric view, but is good to hear it coming from a different view.
    His observation that traffic is vastly different in the US is true. However, the conclusions he draws from it are ones I do not agree with.
    Forrester does come across as a practical cycling proponent of exisiting road structure.

    Once they get into practical application and shifting to urban or bike-centered thinking, his position faulters (imo).
    38:10 - Swedish audience member comments on bicycle safety and addressing crowded unsafe conditions

    So from this point on, it's interesting because Forrester does not clearly, factually respond to the questions.
    In fact, the response to the Swede is to "[get used to it, and it will be safer]"
    That is not a solution.
    What he basically does do, is put the onus on the cyclist. Really, the impression is that accidents are the cyclists fault and there is nothing that drivers do that can help.

    Basically, he is advocating no change of focus but that cyclists should follow auto traffic laws. Really, the only things he advocates are 'more right and left turn lanes' and 'parallel sewer grates are bad'. Yes, I agree with that... and?....
    His is a car-centric opinion.

    It may be my bias watching the video, but I get the sense that the audience does not agree with his conclusions or solutions.
    They seem to be more in line with the thinking that change is the future and bike-centric thinking should be focused on in city planning.

    I see this happening in urban areas and yes, the US system will be different than Europe but we can have our own system that works to encourage bike commuting

    san fran
    http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...#photo-2918274

    and downtown LA
    http://la-bike.org/projects/downtown...s-bike-network
    Re: Forester's stance on NO white line marking a separated bike lane.

    At around 52:05 he addresses his view:

    QUOTE: "Well, you said you had more room. All i will say to you is...you got the room you use! Just ride along and you got that room,.... and the motorists will go around you 'cause they have to.

    They're not going to ride smack over you and... and risk all those possibilities. Might scratch their paint too....you know. But,..but the point is the stripe confuses peoples minds about what's right to do, whereas a wide outside lane, which is a technical name for what you were saying the wide outside lane does not introduce this extra element of confusion.

    And it indicates, even if the stripe is there, you still need all your smarts. So the stripe is bad because it decreases the, ahhh, the propensity to learn how to do it properly. At the same time it's making people confused,....if you understand me."
    END QUOTE



    WHAT?????

    He's saying the motor vehicle driving public will get confused as to what a white line means, (not to cross it!), and therefore a bicyclist is safer without that added point of "confusion"?

    Am i to believe that i'm safer with these SO easily confused drivers riding just to the right of them at substantial speed, rather than at some isolating distance? What a crock of "s**t"!

    Yeah, he's basically calling the driving public a bunch of idiots, BUT,.... TRUST YOUR LIFE to relying on their competence by riding right up alongside them!

    After all, "They're not going to ride smack over you and... and risk all those possibilities." Might scratch their paint and all............

    Right............
    Last edited by joejeweler; 06-23-13 at 01:39 PM.

  9. #684
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejeweler;15774226
    And it indicates, even if the stripe is there, you still need all your smarts. So the stripe is bad because it decreases the, ahhh, the propensity to learn how to do it properly. At the same time it's making people confused,....if you understand me."[/B
    [/I]END QUOTE
    Having a stripe in the road at times, does not confuse motorists but tends to let motorists be more lax in their standards on passing cyclists. I've found motorists tend to be more confident in their passing, at a more reduced distance, and at a higher speed when there is bike lane or striped division on the side of the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Having a stripe in the road at times, does not confuse motorists but tends to let motorists be more lax in their standards on passing cyclists. I've found motorists tend to be more confident in their passing, at a more reduced distance, and at a higher speed when there is bike lane or striped division on the side of the road.
    I agree a white stripe shouldn't confuse motorists, and if they are a bit lax on passing because it's there i can live with that. A buffer zone means a lot......

    But this "expert" states his opposition to the stripe is because of driver confusion creating an added element of danger to the cyclist.

    Looks to me as if his opinion is adding much more danger to a cyclist. :-(
    Last edited by joejeweler; 06-23-13 at 02:00 PM.

  11. #686
    Senior Member dynodonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejeweler View Post
    I agree a white stripe shouldn't confuse motorists, but this "expert" states his opposition to the stripe is because of driver confusion creating an added element of danger to the cyclist.

    Looks to me as if his opinion is adding much more danger to a cyclist :-(

    Many road users like having a white stripe to help guide them along a roadway, a vast majority of the time, that is a very good thing. When trying to shoehorn certain cycling infrastructure onto a roadway that is too narrow in being really safe enough to have a cyclist and motorist side by side, but wide enough to make the barest minimum of standards, a white stripe can be a bad thing.
    In such cases, no marking or a sharrow marking is my preference, but a number of cyclists are not confident enough to ride upon a busy roadway with no markings or with sharrow markings, hence...stripes generally win out in being the final design.

    Having a stripe also means that motorist tend to avoid driving in that section of the roadway, and one side of the stripe tends to end up as a debris field, speaking first hand when I volunteered to help sweep our city's bike lanes a couple of years ago.
    Last edited by dynodonn; 06-23-13 at 02:06 PM.

  12. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejeweler View Post
    Re: Forester's stance on NO white line marking a separated bike lane.

    At around 52:05 he addresses his view:

    QUOTE: "Well, you said you had more room. All i will say to you is...you got the room you use! Just ride along and you got that room,.... and the motorists will go around you 'cause they have to.

    They're not going to ride smack over you and... and risk all those possibilities. Might scratch their paint too....you know. But,..but the point is the stripe confuses peoples minds about what's right to do, whereas a wide outside lane, which is a technical name for what you were saying the wide outside lane does not introduce this extra element of confusion.

    And it indicates, even if the stripe is there, you still need all your smarts. So the stripe is bad because it decreases the, ahhh, the propensity to learn how to do it properly. At the same time it's making people confused,....if you understand me."
    END QUOTE



    WHAT?????

    He's saying the motor vehicle driving public will get confused as to what a white line means, (not to cross it!), and therefore a bicyclist is safer without that added point of "confusion"?

    Am i to believe that i'm safer with these SO easily confused drivers riding just to the right of them at substantial speed, rather than at some isolating distance? What a crock of "s**t"!

    Yeah, he's basically calling the driving public a bunch of idiots, BUT,.... TRUST YOUR LIFE to relying on their competence by riding right up alongside them!

    After all, "They're not going to ride smack over you and... and risk all those possibilities." Might scratch their paint and all............

    Right............
    That talk was organized by cyclists and presented to an audience that consisted of both cyclists and persons interested in cycling. My point was that bike-lane stripes cause confusion in both the motoring public and in the cycling public, but that the degree of confusion is far greater among the cycling public than among the motoring public. That point is clearly demonstrated by the inaccuracy of the comments made by, presumably, a cyclist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    My point was that bike-lane stripes cause confusion in both the motoring public and in the cycling public, but that the degree of confusion is far greater among the cycling public than among the motoring public.
    It's a solid line, which means it isn't supposed to be crossed. It's white, which means traffic on the other side of the line is not oncoming. Anyone who has obtained a driver license should no full well what it means, with no confusion. If you're not willing to give the typical driver that much credit, then you certainly shouldn't assume that they'll move around you when they want by.

    There is no confusion. You're trying to rationalize why bicycle infrastructure cannot possibly good, when such a conclusion isn't rational to begin with.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post
    It's a solid line, which means it isn't supposed to be crossed. It's white, which means traffic on the other side of the line is not oncoming. Anyone who has obtained a driver license should no full well what it means, with no confusion. If you're not willing to give the typical driver that much credit, then you certainly shouldn't assume that they'll move around you when they want by.

    There is no confusion. You're trying to rationalize why bicycle infrastructure cannot possibly good, when such a conclusion isn't rational to begin with.
    You have just stated that in your opinion neither motorist nor cyclist is allowed to cross the bike-lane stripe. That's an expression of the confusion that I described. Just think it through before you write much more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    You have just stated that in your opinion neither motorist nor cyclist is allowed to cross the bike-lane stripe. That's an expression of the confusion that I described. Just think it through before you write much more.
    I was wrong. There is some confusion, yours. You've incorrectly inferred something from my post.

    Cyclists are typically not required by law to use the bike lane; they are permitted to use it. They can, therefore, cross the line to exit the lane permanently or temporarily, or to enter the lane. Automobiles are not permitted to drive in the bike lane. They cannot cross the solid white line. The line clearly demarcates that side of their lane.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    That talk was organized by cyclists and presented to an audience that consisted of both cyclists and persons interested in cycling. My point was that bike-lane stripes cause confusion in both the motoring public and in the cycling public, but that the degree of confusion is far greater among the cycling public than among the motoring public. That point is clearly demonstrated by the inaccuracy of the comments made by, presumably, a cyclist.
    Come on John,.....you can BS some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time,....

    .....but you can't BS all of the people all of the time!

    While you don't specifically mention "who" the confused party is regarding the white line biking separations in the video, it seems a bit insulting labeling cyclists as just too dumb to know what a white line means? Ludicrous.......

    "IF" there is any confusion among the cycling public, it is BECAUSE of die hard proponants like you who continually preach about cyclists taking their equal place on the road. Common sense tells me a cyclist will NEVER be the equal of a motor vehicle on the road,.....they lose in EVERY confrontation!

    A "Fender Bender" to a motor vehicle usually equates to a "Life Ender" for a cyclist when the usual speed of the vehicle is considered.

    Locally what i percieve is a dangerous road the posted speed is 40mph,....yet often vehicles are going 45mph+

    Your comments that a driver is "not going to ride smack over you,....and risk all those possibilities" is what most cyclists would hope to be the case. Sadly, that is not the case.

    There are way to many drunk and drug inpaired drivers on the road. Combine that with tired and distracted drivers who are texting, eating, reading a paper (i've seen it several times!), etc.,.........and no matter how you slice it YOUR life is being put at undue risk dependant on all drivers driving unimpared and undistracted.

    The reality of the matter is every year way too many cyclists are killed in this country from just that scenario! The extra safety awarded via a designated and marked off bicycle lane of sufficient size may not eliminate all the risk,....as someone might very well cross the line anyway due to what i describe as to their state of mind or drug induced or distracted compromized state.

    However, that buffer space can eliminate a great deal of them by allowing a cyclist just a bit more time to react, but of course will not eliminate them all.
    Last edited by joejeweler; 06-23-13 at 07:15 PM.

  17. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaywalk3r View Post

    Cyclists are typically not required by law to use the bike lane; they are permitted to use it. They can, therefore, cross the line to exit the lane permanently or temporarily, or to enter the lane. Automobiles are not permitted to drive in the bike lane. They cannot cross the solid white line. The line clearly demarcates that side of their lane.
    Careful there, here in California motorists can enter, and at certain times, drive in or cross a bike lane, especially if they are making a right turn at an intersection, entering into or out of a driveway. Also in California, if there is a bike lane present, cyclists are required to use it, of course there are many exceptions for one to use in not having to ride in the bike lane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejeweler View Post
    Your comments that a driver is "not going to ride smack over you,....and risk all those possibilities" is what most cyclists would hope to be the case. Sadly, that is not the case.

    There are way to many drunk and drug inpaired drivers on the road. Combine that with tired and distracted drivers who are texting, eating, reading a paper (i saw it several times!), etc.,.........and no matter how you slice it YOUR life is being put at undue risk dependant on all drivers driving unimpared and undistracted.
    I don't know why you think that every cyclist riding in the road is a dead person riding. Judging by their reactions, every motorist that I've encountered, damn well knows when I'm in the middle of the roadway, especially since it's not a common sight here in my locale, and as well as in many other parts of the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Careful there, here in California motorists can enter, and at certain times, drive in or cross a bike lane, especially if they are making a right turn at an intersection, entering into or out of a driveway.
    Fair enough. It still sounds like the solid white line of a bike lane gets treated essentially the same as any other solid white line.

    While most cars will get over without the need for a bike lane, sharrows, etc., I've encountered a few over the years who do not. I've not had similar experiences with cars trying to crowd me out of the bike lane. While it might not be unheard of, my experience is such that, without data showing otherwise, I'm inclined to believe that motorists generally understand and respect bike lanes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Also in California, if there is a bike lane present, cyclists are required to use it, of course there are many exceptions for one to use in not having to ride in the bike lane.
    I've seen such rules other places, too. They tend to provide similar exceptions as "ride right" laws, most of which essentially leave it to the rider's discretion when it is or is not practicable to ride in the bike line.
    Maintain your equipment. Plan your routes well. Practice stoppies often. Keep your head on a swivel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    I don't know why you think that every cyclist riding in the road is a dead person riding. Judging by their reactions, every motorist that I've encountered, damn well knows when I'm in the middle of the roadway, especially since it's not a common sight here in my locale, and as well as in many other parts of the US.
    I never said every cyclist in the road is a dead person riding, but i WILL say most who respond like yourself are delusional as to their actual risk. I say this based solely on the fact their life is dependant on EVERY driver behind them being unimpared and attentive.

    We all know that simply is not the case, yet most won't even give it a second thought,...... as if the world is as they "imagine" it to be.

    I will also say everyone's opinion as to what is safe or not safe is based to a large part on their local conditions. I make no apologies as to relaying as to why in my location the road i travel most is NOT safe to ride alongside traffic.

    So the sidewalk is where i ride most, and where on an average 5 mile trip i might encounter 2-5 pedestrians, (and i yield to every one of them). It's a no brainer when compared to a 40-45 mph 5 lane highway in the city where there is no designed in bicycle lane with a series of recessed storm drains of about 2 every block. Typically hundreds of cars, truck, and buses will pass during the same time period. I got buzzed several times when i actually tried the road here several years ago,......that told me all i needed to know. "Take your lane my a$$"!

    BTW,....an interesting law that was passed here in NY State not too long ago is the provision that a driver must move over into the left lane when passing a police or other emergency vehicle parked on the right shoulder.

    Apparently there must be some concern that ALL drivers were not exercizing good judgement when it came to passing these emergency vehicles,..... or the workers exposed outside them.

    Yet folks like yourself bet their own lives that these same drivers will act responsibly when they get behind a bicyclist. That's also a bet i'm not willing to stake my life on......
    Last edited by joejeweler; 06-23-13 at 06:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejeweler View Post
    I never said every cyclist in the road is a dead person riding, but i WILL say most who respond like yourself are delusional as to their actual risk.
    What bull****, I've never been hit by a motor vehicle while riding my bicycle on the very same roads that people either have died, or have been severely injured on, and my track record didn't happen because I was being delusional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    What bull****, I've never been hit by a motor vehicle while riding my bicycle on the very same roads that people either have died, or have been severely injured on, and my track record didn't happen because I was being delusional.
    WOW,.....thanks for proving my point.

    Riders like you eqate being lucky with "proof" that there is NO undue risk to where and how they ride. The delusion i refer to IS that mentality.

    The fact you even mention those that have died or been seriously injured on your route i think proves what i'm saying to be the case.

    So,.....PLEASE explain to me how you could possibly react should an unattentive driver simply not see you, and be on your backside at 45mph while you were properly placed "taking your lane" at 20mph, say?

    I guess those you mentioned were killed were just unlucky, because i submit there is NO individal who can react in any meaningful way when we're talking the speed differencial and a few feet or less of separation between you and a motor vehicle,....if that?

    I would also venture a guess that more than a few of those cyclists killed felt they were safe riding as you do,.......up until they weren't.

    Way too many innocent drivers also die at the hands of impared drivers, yet i still drive one of several motor vehicles every year. That's a risk i'll accept, if only because i have tons of steel around me as a buffer, AND i can maintain a speed equal to or greater than the motor vehicles around me.

    You don't have that same speed/weight "equalizing" buffer with a bicycle. So we can never be on equal footing on their turf.

    A fender bender between cars is usally a draw........but it's a mess between 2 mismatched "riders".
    Last edited by joejeweler; 06-23-13 at 07:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejeweler View Post
    WOW,.....thanks for proving my point.

    Riders like you eqate being lucky with "proof" that there is NO undue risk to where and how they ride. The delusion i refer to IS that mentality.
    Spewing more bull**** on your part, again I didn't get this far without being hit because I was being delusional. What part don't you understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dynodonn View Post
    Spewing more bull**** on your part, again I didn't get this far without being hit because I was being delusional. What part don't you understand?
    OK,...this is a pointless discussion with a party who's name must be Clark Kent, because those others less fortunate than you who died on your cycling route MUST have done something wrong. I'd venture a guess at least some of the drivers taking out a cyclist stated they didn't see or expect a cyclist to be there. (they're probably NOT going to admit they were distracted with eating, reading, or texting)

    The only other explaination is you are gifted with superhuman powers of observation and reaction times,....or as i ssid just plain lucky so far. But i still submit you're pointing out the other deaths on your route supports my opinion much more than yours.

    BTW,....i truly hope you remain in good health and things continue to go well for you.

    But i'll entrust my own life to a lifestyle where i can control the most variables as possible. Someone making a mistake behind me at road speeds, for whatever reason, is not something i will bet my life on.
    Last edited by joejeweler; 06-23-13 at 09:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joejeweler View Post
    OK,...pointless discussion........

    Yes, you need to give it a rest, since all you can say is that other cyclists not riding by your standards of "safe cycling", are "delusional" and "impracticable sorts", even though we both have achieved the very same results.

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