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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
    Hagen...can you clarify what you've written about the amount you're aware the fine for cyclists not using hand signals can be?

    I don't know what the amount of the citation is, but Oregon has a law addressing cyclists' failure to signal turns: http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/814.440

    A difficult part of this law in Oregon is element (2), which says:
    "(2) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if the person is operating a bicycle and does not give the appropriate signal continuously for a stop or turn because circumstances require that both hands be used to safely control or operate the bicycle."

    To articles at another weblog, I've read people's comments that occasionally express concern about cyclists' ability or lack of, to safely hand signal a turn and still be in relative control of the bike, applying brakes as needed. While many people experienced in biking may so to speak, 'know the ropes', with respect to the judgment and technique involved in being able on the bike to adequately display a hand signal, it probably goes without saying that many people as well, may not have that knowledge and technique. This is one of a number of issues associated with bikes and motor vehicles amongst each other on the road, that for people that bike, makes a good case for solid familiarity with bike in traffic techniques, widely introduced to everyone that bikes in traffic.
    Actuallly, I was not completely right about the amount. Driver: 1000 DKK. Cyclist: 700 DKK.

    But there are no exceptions in the Danish law regarding signs. You're supposed to be able to use them at any time. If not, you're going too fast, are riding a bike that doesn't fit you etc. And it's one of those things that parents will teach their kids when they learn to ride. They MUST be able to operate their bike with one hand on the handlebar, both left and right.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    My 'argument' against hand signals? - John's published cycling advice is for cyclists not to use them.

    legally signalling turns is the law for both bicyclists and motorists, in the US as well as Holland. The paragraph above appears to excuse motorists also failing to signal turns. wsbob brings up a good point cyclists don't have to do them if safety predicates their both hands on the bars, but the published Forester method is to never use hand signals out of fear of crashing. A far different perspective.

    none of which is neither here nor there in a discussion about cycling in Holland, except to mention that teaching cyclists the default method is to not use hand signals out of fear of crashing is no way to instruct people how to ride a bike, either in the US or Holland.
    Yes, I wrote "against" instead of "about". Sorry.

    Bek is lying again. I have never written to not use hand signals for fear of crashing.

    The argument about signalling goes back to the days before motor vehicles were all fitted with self-cancelling turn signals that require no continuous effort from the driver. Then the laws all read that signalling was required if the movement would affect the path of any other vehicle. Since bicycles don't have self-cancelling turn signals, I think that the law should have remained in its original state for vehicles that don't have self-cancelling turn signals. That law would make sense. Instead of which, the laws had to be rewritten to provide exceptions for cyclists in case the hand was needed to control the bicycle. Which is what the versions of the law I have read all say.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Actuallly, I was not completely right about the amount. Driver: 1000 DKK. Cyclist: 700 DKK.

    But there are no exceptions in the Danish law regarding signs. You're supposed to be able to use them at any time. If not, you're going too fast, are riding a bike that doesn't fit you etc. And it's one of those things that parents will teach their kids when they learn to ride. They MUST be able to operate their bike with one hand on the handlebar, both left and right.
    But the Danish law is based on the assumption of slow cycling on level surfaces. Here in America we often cycle fast, including down descents, under conditions in which maintaining control of the bicycle is much safer when both hands are used.

  4. #179
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    does John mean because bicyclists sometimes go fast in america, bicyclists don't have to follow the law and use legal hand signals?



    oh, that's right, the furtive Forester fear of crashing, keep both hands on the bars at all times! advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Bek is lying again. I have never written to not use hand signals for fear of crashing.
    What? the published method in your book differs.Your book instructs cyclists to not use hand signals when changing lanes in traffic. page 308. Fear of losing control of the bike is part of your reasoning. page 309. And its written in the context of slow speed traffic, when traffic is moving at the same speed as the bicyclist.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester's book, pg 308
    Notice that you have obeyed the spirit of of the vehicle code while disregarding its specific requirement to make the left-arm signal
    that bears repeating.


    Notice that you have obeyed the spirit of of the vehicle code while disregarding its specific requirement to make the left-arm signal.....
    Now, john may think he wrote something different, but advice to notice a cyclist isn't using a hand signal is an explicit recommendation to not use hand signals. Fear of crashing is one of two reasons the Forester Method gives for not signalling turns.


    fear of losing control at slow speeds, Forester method, page 309.


    Quote Originally Posted by pg 309
    .....There are two reasons for this.......Second, the traffic situation might suddenly require both hands on the handlebars and brakes....
    anyone who's long published instructions are for cyclists to not use hand signals at low speeds out of fear of suddenly requiring two hands on the bars - the alternate would be losing control or crashing- maintains no credibility as a spokesman about either American OR Dutch cycling.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-27-12 at 03:53 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    But the Danish law is based on the assumption of slow cycling on level surfaces. Here in America we often cycle fast, including down descents, under conditions in which maintaining control of the bicycle is much safer when both hands are used.
    Well, most surfaces are sufficiently level for one to signal at, say, 30 mph. And if you're going to make a turn, you'll have to slow down anyway. Same, of course, with stopping. So I don't get your objection.

    Anyway: If you can't control your bike one-handedly at a certain speed, you shouldn't be riding at that speed. Think of racing: Riders in the old days had to change gears on the downtube at sometimes very high speeds. I often do on my vintage bikes.

    There's no excuse for not using signals, really.


    Edit: I have a sneaking suspicion that Forester isn't a particularly competent cyclist...

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Edit: I have a sneaking suspicion that Forester isn't a particularly competent cyclist...
    Nice sucker punch.

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    People that bike, developing the judgment, skill and ability to safely take a hand off the bars to signal turns, slowing and stops is very important. While it's something that can be done safely, it's certainly true that conditions and situations do exist where for reasons of safety, cyclists must keep both hands on the handlebars, such as: rough, irregular pavement, streetcar tracks, need for abrupt stop, and so on. There are though, ways for people biking to manage these type situations, and generally still find opportunity to safely signal intention in advance of turns, slowing and stops, to other road users.

    My impression received through news stories, personal accounts and so on, is that road users not sufficiently signaling intention, is one of the key contributors to close calls and collisions, and also, to general uneasiness, confusion and conflict amongst road users. Where vulnerable road users are present amongst motor vehicles, all of the aforementioned can create very serious potential for mishap. Most people would choose a mishap-free trip over the road to the extent they have control over making their trip be mishap-free. Increased efforts to show them things they can do to make their ride or drive mishap-free, is essential.

  8. #183
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GP View Post
    Nice sucker punch.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Forester method, changing lanes in slow speed traffic, explaining why the Forester method instructs to not use hand signals, pg 309
    Second, the traffic situation might suddenly require both hands on the handlebars and brakes....
    with advice like this, no punches needed.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Originally Posted by the Forester method, changing lanes in slow speed traffic, explaining why the Forester method instructs to not use hand signals, pg 309
    Second, the traffic situation might suddenly require both hands on the handlebars and brakes....



    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    with advice like this, no punches needed.
    This is given as only a second reason, not the first reason, and, note, it applies to the use of the brakes. It is commonly recognized that for any but the most gentle braking, if the deceleration force has to be applied through only one hand, that forces the steering into swerving the bicycle. Therefore, in situations when braking may be suddenly required, as when cycling in traffic, it is best to have both hands on the handlebars so that the deceleration force is balanced on each side.

  10. #185
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    yes, all but the most gentle braking could suddenly cause the bicyclist to lose control of the bike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE, I THINK I'M GOING TO CRASH!!!!!!!! AND THE LAW REQUIRES BICYCLISTS USE HAND SIGNALS?

    *mad flail in control for one's bike*

    That riding advice doesn't pass muster, either dutch or domestic.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  11. #186
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    Re; safely riding in control of the bike while taking a hand off the bars to signal turns, slowing and braking: As I mentioned in the earlier post, although there can be a certain, greater risk in taking a hand off the bars to signal than there is in having both hands on the bars to stabilize and brake the bike, the degree of risk involved is relative to the various attendant conditions. People riding in traffic situations will generally run a greater risk in not taking a hand off the bars to signal intention to other road users, than they will in keeping both hands on the bars at all times.

    Signalling gives other road users advance notice of actions about to take place. Signalling for a turn or a stop can be very effective in conveying the message to other road uses to slow down. The value here, for people riding bikes in signaling turns, should be obvious: Vulnerable road users signaling for turns helps to keep other road users from colliding with them. Road users, including people biking that don't signal intention, leave everyone guessing.

    Even with drop bars and hand actuated calipers, it's not so difficult to learn the skill of feathering the rear brake gently with the right hand on the brake lever. First things to know and practice, are to not lock the brake, and to become familiar with readily moving the signaling hand down to the brake lever for time when a quicker stop using both brakes is called for. There's other considerations as well, but demonstration probably is more effective than reading about them.

    It's bad if people are being led to believe it's not possible, with just one hand on the bars, to safely ride a bike in traffic. It is possible and can be quite safe. Everyone riding should learn and practice skills for riding one-handed so that they may be able to safely and effectively display hand signals.

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Originally Posted by the Forester method, changing lanes in slow speed traffic, explaining why the Forester method instructs to not use hand signals, pg 309
    Second, the traffic situation might suddenly require both hands on the handlebars and brakes....





    This is given as only a second reason, not the first reason, and, note, it applies to the use of the brakes. It is commonly recognized that for any but the most gentle braking, if the deceleration force has to be applied through only one hand, that forces the steering into swerving the bicycle. Therefore, in situations when braking may be suddenly required, as when cycling in traffic, it is best to have both hands on the handlebars so that the deceleration force is balanced on each side.
    In Denmark, you're only supposed to signal a stop if it isn't related to the general flow of traffic, or if it isn't an emergency (because someone steps out in front of you etc.). May be different in the USA, I don't know. Now, if you know in advance that you'll have to stop, you can signal, then decelerate, then perhaps even signal once more once your speed is sufficiently low to manage it safely. That would be the way for hand brakes only. If you've got a hub brake, no problems at all.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
    It's bad if people are being led to believe it's not possible, with just one hand on the bars, to safely ride a bike in traffic. It is possible and can be quite safe. Everyone riding should learn and practice skills for riding one-handed so that they may be able to safely and effectively display hand signals.
    Of course.

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    In Denmark, you're only supposed to signal a stop if it isn't related to the general flow of traffic, or if it isn't an emergency (because someone steps out in front of you etc.). May be different in the USA, I don't know. Now, if you know in advance that you'll have to stop, you can signal, then decelerate, then perhaps even signal once more once your speed is sufficiently low to manage it safely. That would be the way for hand brakes only. If you've got a hub brake, no problems at all.
    Hagen, you have displayed the rather narrow range of your knowledge of cycling. Let me explain the braking issue. When you apply brakes, be it front wheel or both wheels or rear wheel only, whether by hand lever(s) or by back force on a coaster brake, the bicycle attempts to decelerate. Since you are the major mass of the system, much of the force required to decelerate has to be applied to your body. Your feet are not well placed, in relation to your center of mass, to decelerate your body, and they may not be attached to the pedals. The friction between your seat and the saddle, while near your center of mass, probably does not have sufficient friction to decelerate your body with more than gentle deceleration. Your hands are equally well placed to decelerate your body and can have a firm grip on the bicycle, that is to say, the handlebars. And they are best placed to decelerate your upper body. Therefore, when you apply the brakes, a large portion of the force required to decelerate your body is transmitted from the bicycle through your hands and arms to your body, particularly your upper body. Since your body is bilaterally symmetric, equal force is transmitted by each arm, and the steering remains normal. If you choose to brake while using only one hand on the handlebars, the force between one side of the handlebar and one shoulder will turn the steering in an undesired direction. There's no way to counteract that force. About the only thing that you can do is to stiffen your back in the upright position and hope that the friction between seat and saddle is sufficient to carry the deceleration force required.

    I am surprised, Hagen, that you had not noted this effect before this.

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsbob View Post

    snips
    It's bad if people are being led to believe it's not possible, with just one hand on the bars, to safely ride a bike in traffic. It is possible and can be quite safe. Everyone riding should learn and practice skills for riding one-handed so that they may be able to safely and effectively display hand signals.
    Bek is the one arguing that I say that it is not safe to ride one handed. I never wrote that. Furthermore, I am well able to ride one handed; after all, I competed in races during which it was mandatory to eat and drink while riding; at least, if you wanted to finish. And, even more, I have repeated tested bicycles for stability by riding no hands. In one case, a bicycle with suspected instability had dumped its rider, and was in the laboratory of the plaintiff's expert, on the Stanford campus. So I got on it and rode it, no hands, right out of the expert's laboratory. It was unstable, very difficult to ride no hands; required much hip movement to hold it on a reasonable straight path. When I got back on my own bicycle, which I had ridden to that lab, its steering suddenly felt stiff, because, rather than wobbling all over, it fought back when I gave it a steering command that did not match its lean angle.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
    Re; safely riding in control of the bike while taking a hand off the bars to signal turns, slowing and braking: As I mentioned in the earlier post, although there can be a certain, greater risk in taking a hand off the bars to signal than there is in having both hands on the bars to stabilize and brake the bike, the degree of risk involved is relative to the various attendant conditions. People riding in traffic situations will generally run a greater risk in not taking a hand off the bars to signal intention to other road users, than they will in keeping both hands on the bars at all times.

    Signalling gives other road users advance notice of actions about to take place. Signalling for a turn or a stop can be very effective in conveying the message to other road uses to slow down. The value here, for people riding bikes in signaling turns, should be obvious: Vulnerable road users signaling for turns helps to keep other road users from colliding with them. Road users, including people biking that don't signal intention, leave everyone guessing.
    This is the wrong message about signalling. Signalling does not "give other road users advance notice of actions about to take place." Signalling sends the message that the driver wishes to make some movement, not that he is going to do it. The driver who is signalling is not allowed to make his desired movement until after he has determined that no other driver will be affected by that movement. When changing lanes, then a signal (of whatever kind is understood) can initiate a negotiation to persuade a driver to slow down to make a place for the signalling driver. However, when making turns signalling does not initiate a negotiation; the turning driver does not have the right of way and is not entitled to negotiate for it. Therefore, the driver going straight across the desired path of the turning driver is expected to continue on course at speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    (snip)... Let me explain the braking issue. When you apply brakes, be it front wheel or both wheels or rear wheel only, whether by hand lever(s) or by back force on a coaster brake, the bicycle attempts to decelerate. Since you are the major mass of the system, much of the force required to decelerate has to be applied to your body. Your feet are not well placed, in relation to your center of mass, to decelerate your body, and they may not be attached to the pedals. The friction between your seat and the saddle, while near your center of mass, probably does not have sufficient friction to decelerate your body with more than gentle deceleration. Your hands are equally well placed to decelerate your body and can have a firm grip on the bicycle, that is to say, the handlebars. And they are best placed to decelerate your upper body. Therefore, when you apply the brakes, a large portion of the force required to decelerate your body is transmitted from the bicycle through your hands and arms to your body, particularly your upper body. Since your body is bilaterally symmetric, equal force is transmitted by each arm, and the steering remains normal. If you choose to brake while using only one hand on the handlebars, the force between one side of the handlebar and one shoulder will turn the steering in an undesired direction. There's no way to counteract that force. About the only thing that you can do is to stiffen your back in the upright position and hope that the friction between seat and saddle is sufficient to carry the deceleration force required. ...(snip).

    John, no doubt you know this, but just as a reminder, the type of biking it appears is being generally being discussed here is commuter and recreational biking in and around the city...not criterium racing. Although commuter biking and criterium racing are subject to some of the same laws of physics, the degree to which they're subject to, is much milder in the case of commuter/recreational biking. I'll venture that typical average mph speeds for people on bikes approaching intersections in preparation for a stop or a turn will be 15 mph or less. At that speed, lightly feathering the brakes to slow and stop won't summon physical forces to a major degree. In many cases, the bike will nearly slow down sufficient for a stop at an intersection as the person riding stops pedaling. Just a touch on the brakes will bring the bike to a stop. That's no cause for alarm or justification not to take a hand off the bars to signal slowing, stopping, and turning intention.


    Incidentally, Hagen, re; people riding bikes hand signaling for slowing and stopping in the U.S.: I can't say what the laws are for the entire U.S., but for Oregon the rules/laws on hand signaling aren't particularly exacting. They give a distance of 100' to commence signaling in advance of a turn. Beyond that simple specification, it's left to the individual person biking to judge what situations a hand signal given can effectively convey intention and enhance their safety. Through observation of other people riding, and experimenting when I'm riding, I've found signaling to be immensely helpful in communicating to people driving...and to people biking, what my intentions are. I generously use signaling. Not many people around my area seem to use it yet, but I've found the 'slow-stop' signal (arm 45 degree angle to the ground) to be very effective as well.



    Re; post #191, John, I'm having trouble following some of what you're trying to say in your comment, but while you're certainly entitled to your opinion, with respect to your conclusion about the following statement of mine: "...Signalling gives other road users advance notice of actions about to take place. ...", I disagree. Signaling most certainly does give advance notice of actions that, while not absolutely are about to take place...most likely will, should other factors allow what the hand signal given is indicating.
    Last edited by wsbob; 11-28-12 at 01:06 PM.

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  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
    John, no doubt you know this, but just as a reminder, the type of biking it appears is being generally being discussed here is commuter and recreational biking in and around the city...not criterium racing. Although commuter biking and criterium racing are subject to some of the same laws of physics, the degree to which they're subject to, is much milder in the case of commuter/recreational biking. I'll venture that typical average mph speeds for people on bikes approaching intersections in preparation for a stop or a turn will be 15 mph or less. At that speed, lightly feathering the brakes to slow and stop won't summon physical forces to a major degree. In many cases, the bike will nearly slow down sufficient for a stop at an intersection as the person riding stops pedaling. Just a touch on the brakes will bring the bike to a stop. That's no cause for alarm or justification not to take a hand off the bars to signal slowing, stopping, and turning intention.


    Incidentally, Hagen, re; people riding bikes hand signaling for slowing and stopping in the U.S.: I can't say what the laws are for the entire U.S., but for Oregon the rules/laws on hand signaling aren't particularly exacting. They give a distance of 100' to commence signaling in advance of a turn. Beyond that simple specification, it's left to the individual person biking to judge what situations a hand signal given can effectively convey intention and enhance their safety. Through observation of other people riding, and experimenting when I'm riding, I've found signaling to be immensely helpful in communicating to people driving...and to people biking, what my intentions are. I generously use signaling. Not many people around my area seem to use it yet, but I've found the 'slow-stop' signal (arm 45 degree angle to the ground) to be very effective as well.



    Re; post #191, John, I'm having trouble following some of what you're trying to say in your comment, but while you're certainly entitled to your opinion, with respect to your conclusion about the following statement of mine: "...Signalling gives other road users advance notice of actions about to take place. ...", I disagree. Signaling most certainly does give advance notice of actions that, while not absolutely are about to take place...most likely will, should other factors allow what the hand signal given is indicating.
    Regarding the last paragraph. The driver signalling is showing intent, desire. However, in most cases, he may not make his desired movement until no other driver will be affected by that movement. Given that, what use do other drivers make of the signal? Do they change their course or speed? In a lane changing negotiation, one might do that, but none of them is obliged to do so. But in most situations they do not. There are situations in which signalling provides easier operation. For instance, when two drivers approach a stop-signed road from opposite directions at approximately the same time. If one of them intends to turn left, signalling a left turn tells the other one that he is ceding the right of way. At another time, if a driver slows for a right turn with another driver close behind, signalling the right turn indicates both slowing and the fact that that driver will be out of the other's way. Not a safety item, but makes things run smoother.

    If the discussion is to be limited to slow speed cycling, commuter or recreational, on level roads, then the discussion should be so limited, with the limitation stated frequently. For quite some years I lived exactly 1,000 feet above sea level and worked at sea level, and cyclocommuted daily. I had many other friends who lived in hilly areas and cyclocommuted on most days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    does John mean because bicyclists sometimes go fast in america, bicyclists don't have to follow the law and use legal hand signals?



    oh, that's right, the furtive Forester fear of crashing, keep both hands on the bars at all times! advice.



    What? the published method in your book differs.Your book instructs cyclists to not use hand signals when changing lanes in traffic. page 308. Fear of losing control of the bike is part of your reasoning. page 309. And its written in the context of slow speed traffic, when traffic is moving at the same speed as the bicyclist.



    that bears repeating.




    Now, john may think he wrote something different, but advice to notice a cyclist isn't using a hand signal is an explicit recommendation to not use hand signals. Fear of crashing is one of two reasons the Forester Method gives for not signalling turns.


    fear of losing control at slow speeds, Forester method, page 309.




    anyone who's long published instructions are for cyclists to not use hand signals at low speeds out of fear of suddenly requiring two hands on the bars - the alternate would be losing control or crashing- maintains no credibility as a spokesman about either American OR Dutch cycling.
    It's quite common to require both hands on the bars to maintain control. Certainly while riding in traffic, particularly at speed. Potholes, cracks, sudden braking, etc. No one who has ridden a bike further than around the block is unaware of this...while randonneuring I have performed many tasks 'hands-free' at speed - eating, putting on and taking off clothing, reading maps, etc. This competency doesn't change the essential fact that there are many times at which I do prefer to have both hands on the bars.

    To pretend otherwise just harms whatever argument you're trying to make, and brings your own cycling experience into question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Hagen, you have displayed the rather narrow range of your knowledge of cycling. Let me explain the braking issue. When you apply brakes, be it front wheel or both wheels or rear wheel only, whether by hand lever(s) or by back force on a coaster brake, the bicycle attempts to decelerate. Since you are the major mass of the system, much of the force required to decelerate has to be applied to your body. Your feet are not well placed, in relation to your center of mass, to decelerate your body, and they may not be attached to the pedals. The friction between your seat and the saddle, while near your center of mass, probably does not have sufficient friction to decelerate your body with more than gentle deceleration. Your hands are equally well placed to decelerate your body and can have a firm grip on the bicycle, that is to say, the handlebars. And they are best placed to decelerate your upper body. Therefore, when you apply the brakes, a large portion of the force required to decelerate your body is transmitted from the bicycle through your hands and arms to your body, particularly your upper body. Since your body is bilaterally symmetric, equal force is transmitted by each arm, and the steering remains normal. If you choose to brake while using only one hand on the handlebars, the force between one side of the handlebar and one shoulder will turn the steering in an undesired direction. There's no way to counteract that force. About the only thing that you can do is to stiffen your back in the upright position and hope that the friction between seat and saddle is sufficient to carry the deceleration force required.

    I am surprised, Hagen, that you had not noted this effect before this.
    Rich.

  22. #197
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
    It's quite common to require both hands on the bars to maintain control. Certainly while riding in traffic, particularly at speed. Potholes, cracks, sudden braking, etc. No one who has ridden a bike further than around the block is unaware of this...while randonneuring I have performed many tasks 'hands-free' at speed - eating, putting on and taking off clothing, reading maps, etc. This competency doesn't change the essential fact that there are many times at which I do prefer to have both hands on the bars.

    To pretend otherwise just harms whatever argument you're trying to make, and brings your own cycling experience into question.
    I don't think you get it buddy- the forester method specifically instructs cyclists to break the law and not signal as the default out of fear of crashing.

    The forester method doesn't pass muster in Holland, and its lousy advice in north america as well.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-28-12 at 07:35 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
    I don't think you get it buddy- the foresrter method specifically instructs cyclists to break the law and not signal at out of fear of crashing. The forester method doesn't pass muster in Holland, and its lousy advice in north america as well.
    More of Bek's standard lies produced by selective rewriting my words to convey meanings that I have not intended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wsbob View Post
    John, no doubt you know this, but just as a reminder, the type of biking it appears is being generally being discussed here is commuter and recreational biking in and around the city...not criterium racing. Although commuter biking and criterium racing are subject to some of the same laws of physics, the degree to which they're subject to, is much milder in the case of commuter/recreational biking. I'll venture that typical average mph speeds for people on bikes approaching intersections in preparation for a stop or a turn will be 15 mph or less. At that speed, lightly feathering the brakes to slow and stop won't summon physical forces to a major degree. In many cases, the bike will nearly slow down sufficient for a stop at an intersection as the person riding stops pedaling. Just a touch on the brakes will bring the bike to a stop. That's no cause for alarm or justification not to take a hand off the bars to signal slowing, stopping, and turning intention.


    Incidentally, Hagen, re; people riding bikes hand signaling for slowing and stopping in the U.S.: I can't say what the laws are for the entire U.S., but for Oregon the rules/laws on hand signaling aren't particularly exacting. They give a distance of 100' to commence signaling in advance of a turn. Beyond that simple specification, it's left to the individual person biking to judge what situations a hand signal given can effectively convey intention and enhance their safety. Through observation of other people riding, and experimenting when I'm riding, I've found signaling to be immensely helpful in communicating to people driving...and to people biking, what my intentions are. I generously use signaling. Not many people around my area seem to use it yet, but I've found the 'slow-stop' signal (arm 45 degree angle to the ground) to be very effective as well.



    Re; post #191, John, I'm having trouble following some of what you're trying to say in your comment, but while you're certainly entitled to your opinion, with respect to your conclusion about the following statement of mine: "...Signalling gives other road users advance notice of actions about to take place. ...", I disagree. Signaling most certainly does give advance notice of actions that, while not absolutely are about to take place...most likely will, should other factors allow what the hand signal given is indicating.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester View Post
    Regarding the last paragraph. The driver signalling is showing intent, desire. However, in most cases, he may not make his desired movement until no other driver will be affected by that movement. Given that, what use do other drivers make of the signal? Do they change their course or speed? In a lane changing negotiation, one might do that, but none of them is obliged to do so. But in most situations they do not. There are situations in which signalling provides easier operation. For instance, when two drivers approach a stop-signed road from opposite directions at approximately the same time. If one of them intends to turn left, signalling a left turn tells the other one that he is ceding the right of way. At another time, if a driver slows for a right turn with another driver close behind, signalling the right turn indicates both slowing and the fact that that driver will be out of the other's way. Not a safety item, but makes things run smoother. ...(snip).
    The driver? People driving cars and people riding bikes on road lanes are both road users. Signaling displays intent. Road use obliges certain types and degrees of adjustment, accommodation and sometimes, compromise at times from all road users whether they're biking, driving, or walking. People riding bikes, indicating with hand signals as they prepare to turn, slow or stop, is by way of the communication to other road users that hand signals afford, greatly beneficial in helping traffic to flow more smoothly, and even more importantly, to avoid close calls and collisions.

  25. #200
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruiserhead View Post










    Yes, indeed. don't these people know they are at grave risk of losing control of their bikes? Look at the dangerous situations, they clearly look like incompetent cyclists.



    Best run them thru the Forester bike method, get them not signalling turns, both hands on the bars, out of fear of losing control -

    maybe that's what's the 'critic' thoroughly panned in the original post thinks is lacking in the dutch cycling program -critical masses of cyclists failing to signal, out of fear of losing control of their bikes?
    Last edited by Bekologist; 11-28-12 at 08:18 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

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