phoebeisis

In many states-Green will get a ticket-FRAP
If you like dealing with cops courts-go green

Europeans-big on bikes- DON'T- "take the lane" do they??

spare_wheel

Sure they do. Signs that say "cycling allowed in roadway" have popped up all over Germany.

phoebeisis

Spare wheel

The Krauts apparently have to be TOLD that bikes are even allowed to be on a road.
sure doesn't sound like "take a lane"
Perhaps no sign means you CAN'T ride on the road??
Autobahn(sic) allow bikes???

And I don't see any bikes in that picture!
Let see some pictures of Eurotrash peddling down the RIGHT SIDE of the road with BMW's MBs politely stacked up behind them??

buzzman

Look, I ride vehicularly every single day as well. Unless you're being deliberately obtuse, which may be the case, I'll spell it out- My reference to the VC thing never taking hold is a reference to a particular dogmatic philosophy. I am referring to the same "VC'ers" who "exaggerate the safety and utility of always taking the lane."

Perhaps you've been really lucky and neither witnessed nor been involved in a serious bike/motor vehicle collision but I really don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that our proximity to powerful vehicles that vastly outweigh us is something to be seriously considered every time we ride.

Moving further into the lane, while a wise strategy at times, also involves a rise in a certain level of other risks because of an increased exposure. The decision to move into the lane has to be balanced by taking into account those other risks. Sometimes it's worth it and wise, sometimes its not and its stupid.

I really don't see that much disagreement in our posts but if you prefer to be contrary that's fine I just don't see your point in casting me as a "copenhamstrungnista".

Rootman

The posters that state the fact that it depends on the condition are the only ones who seem to make any sense. And while I tend to think the green position is more correct for a majority of situations there ARE situations where the red and orange are best suited. Just watch the conditions, use your best judgment that is the best for you AND surrounding traffic, try not to be a dick about it or give dicks around you an opportunity to show off their dick moves. Give way when necessary and when it helps the movement of traffic without hindering your progress too much.

Basically, pay attention to what you are doing, the road and traffic conditions, realize you are slower moving than mmost other traffic and that other traffic on the road has little regard for you and will pass or turn around you in a manner that may put you in harms way. It's tough, and sometimes the BEST cyclists are forced into situations that cause them harm Sometimes through careless or ignorant motorist or even other bikers and occasionally through their own cause. It's DANGEROUS to bike on the road, but the dangers can usually be mitigated to acceptable levels by care, skill and talent. The only thing that I could GUARANTEE is that you WILL have close calls and that SOME of you will be hurt or even killed while riding.

So ride safe friends. Remember we too are sharing the road.

billew

There have been some changes lately Buzz These sharrows have been put in on Thames St. and Spring St. and they are in the right place unlike on Memorial Blvd. There are yellow diamond signs with bicycle image on most of the blind corners and big dips on Ocean Drive. I take the lane any time there is an accomodation allowing me to. Most of the time I take lane on all roads that have two lanes in the same direction the red position is the fastest pavement and don't let people BS you about why they riding in the sweet spot for speed. I ride on all major roads in Rhode Island including Rt. 114, 138, 2, 102 ect. I am not afraid of taking space I did it today on both 114 and 138 there is no other way to ride on a 35-45 mph road with no shoulder. I tend to stay off during rush hours except for the 1/2 mile between Union Street and Glen Road today I just took the lane in the middle and folks calmly passed me by changing lanes. I don't think that using "rusty or beginner bicyclists" as the basis for cycling rules is good practice, lowering the bar isn't realistic and promotes fear and ignorance. As you can see Newport is promoting VC riding.

buzzman

The sharrows on Thames St. are pretty much right where I would be riding on that street anyway. I suppose you could interpret their placement as "promoting VC riding" I see it more as the right position to ride on that particular street as well as reminding drivers bikes might be present in the roadway.

Yeah, picking and choosing the right time of day to ride on 114 is a smart idea. Just curious when you say you " take the lane" on 114 are you riding in the RED position or the GREEN?

turbo1889

Although you and I may not agree on exactly where the line between those two is we most certainly agree there is a line and both riding styles are appropriate and the best choice for different situations.

I personally have strongly adopted a "Get in or get out" philosophy for my riding based on mainly first hand experience (that's a nice way of saying I had to learn the hard way) which seems to work best for me. I either get entirely out of the main traffic lane and ride to the right of the white line or I get all the way in the lane, I don't try to ride the fence in-between those two options. In a situation where I make the decision that the best course of action is to "get in" rather then out I'm going to take a lane position that dictates that overtaking vehicles unless they are abnormally narrow have to at least straddle pass, with a narrow enough lane width riding in the right tire track can be sufficient for that, but usually it isn't quite and riding about a third of the way into the lane between the oil drip center line of the lane and the right tire track line is just about perfect for most situations.

I don't like to share a lane side by side with a big dangerous vehicle. A good deal of this I'm sure is the fact that lanes wide enough to safely share are extremely rare in my area, maybe I'd feel different if I lived somewhere that had a whole bunch of those rumored 14'+ wide non-substandard lanes that the unified federal vehicle code calls for but up in my area that is by no means the rule. Normal lane width up here is about 9' and with some a little narrower and occasionally on some high speed highways 10-12' wide lanes but the speeds are so great that you can't safely share those lanes even though one could argue that they could be safely shared with 6' wide cars at low speeds and maintain the minimum 3' clearance required by law for safe passing of a cyclist if the cyclist was way over in the right edge of the lane and the cars passed way over in the left edge.

I have no problem letting a non-fat motorcycle pass me within the same lane even in the narrowest 7-8' width two tire track lanes (yes, they do get that narrow up here sometimes where big trucks and buses have their wheels riding on the lines on both sides of them and can't completely fit in the lane). But I do watch my tail for all those other normal wider width vehicles and if I'm riding "In" on a narrow two lane road without shoulder edges or ones to narrow to be ride-able (quite common riding situation for me) and see some speed demon gashole jerk coming up behind me edging a line that shows he intends to straddle pass me with oncoming traffic and there won't be room for both the straddle pass and the oncoming traffic, I don't move right within the lane, I move left within the lane and I do it immediately when I see that situation developing so that if absolutely necessary I still have time to "bail it" to the right but that will mean going completely off the road and usually crashing off the edge of the road so that's the second to last option only short of getting hit.

Yup, sometimes when I do that after they hit the brakes and abort their intended crazy unsafe pass as a result of me moving to the left in my lane position to get it through their speed demon gashole heads that they couldn't safely pass at that moment they do switch to laying on the horn in a long hard blast after they are done hitting their brakes. But I'd much rather get honked at then have a straddle passer turn into me at the last moment when they are to the point where they figure out too late that they either turn into me and hit me or hit the oncoming car head-on.

Long story short, yes, sometimes I do make some heavy vehicle operators very angry sometimes via deliberate moves on my part further left in my lane position. But I don't do it unless its necessary and I do it soon enough that I still have time enough for a bail out option if they don't hit their brakes. Riding all the time as far left as the left tire track or just to to the right of it as suggested in the diagram posted by the OP ~ no thanks. There are times when moving that far left in the lane is necessary, but it's not something I'd habitually do.

I think that kind of situation where a speed demon gashole jerk intending to straddle pass realizes when he gets closer that there isn't room to do so and has to slam on his brakes (assuming he does rather then slamming into the cyclist and/or causing a head-on collision with oncoming traffic) is what the person who made that diagram posted in the OP was talking about as far as actually making people more mad by riding in the right tire track because they think they have room to pass until they get closer. There might be some validity to that but I don't think you have to be that far over to the left to prevent that for most motorists. There are the occasional ones where you do have to be that far left for them to "get it" and even then they still might not get it but since they are the minority I'd rather piss off a small minority then a large majority, seems like there would be less total risk that way.

Don't get me wrong if its necessary for my own safety and its a matter of life itself vs. a little bit of emotional trepidation on the part of some selfish jerks who get upset about the idea of having to actually take their foot of the gas pedal and use the brake pedal to slow down for a few seconds and wait to safely pass ~ I'm willing to piss off the entire planet if necessary. Just would prefer not to if it isn't necessary.

There do seem to be some who are darn well determined to piss off as many as possible even when, and especially when, it isn't necessary. There are also seem to be some who won't stand up for their own safety and will cower in the far right edge of a very narrow 7' wide lane inviting multiple close passes where their odds are about 1 in 10 of at least the mirror of passing cars hitting them. Both are equally stupid and ridiculous.

genec

Buzzman that was beautifully stated and really hits home. +1000 for the reality check.

billew

I am Mr. Green cyclist, I agree with Turbo. I will completely take the lane over. I find the red position leads to close passes. I also move left in sketchy situations without a shred of remorse for Jane Q. Cager's need to brake until it's safe. I am amazed at the total clueless riders riding a foot off of a row of vehicles that could open a door at any time, that many are wearing helmets is a hoot.
Let me say that if I needed to ride on an arterial road at rush hour I do not fret about it. I will not ride in fear, I have only bikes I've never had a driver's license and look on most posters here as drivers first and cyclists second and this informs their mindset to aquiesce their right to the road and further reinforce in the minds of the drivers they encounter that bikes "don't belong in middle of the road".

turbo1889

Just thought I should make it clear that I'm not an "always ride in the lane" kind of cyclist. I shoulder edge ride as much or more then VC ride in the main traffic lane(s). I just use a "Get IN or get OUT !!!" philosophy and if I'm going to get IN then I'm going to be IN all the way, no half-@$$ sh*t.

----- When the speed limit on the road I'm riding on is 25-mph or less then its unusual for me to not be riding VC in the main traffic lane(s)
----- When both the speed limit and traffic speed on the road I'm riding on is more then that if there is a shoulder edge on the road of significant width and surface condition to allow me to safely, effectively, and efficiently shoulder edge ride outside of the main traffic lane(s) then I do so except for left turns and such.

"Get IN or Get OUT" and on low speed roads usually ride "IN" and on high speed roads ride "OUT" if practical. That's my philosophy that I've come to based on my real world experience as to what works best and exposes me to the least danger while allowing me to effectively travel by bike. I'm not a militant VCer that always take the lane no matter what, and I'm not a mamby-pamby, cowardly edge rider either. I have just learned that there is a seesaw like balance between the the two main dangers of overtaking traffic from behind (getting hit from behind, unsafe passing, right hook, etc . . .) and crossing traffic from the front and sides (Left-T-Cross, Cross traffic failure to yield, Right Entry Nose Out or Mow Down, etc . . .) and when roadways speeds are low the safest course of action is to take the lane and ride VC style and when roadway speeds are high edge riding is the better choice if the road infrastructure provides a safe, efficient, and effective place to ride that way. Sometimes it does not and in those cases it is necessary to take the lane and I consider those situations a failure of infrastructure planners to be sure to accommodate all types of traffic rather then being strictly automobile-centered.

Also, I was a cyclist first, then I was an automobile driver, and then I went back to using cycles as much as possible and saving the automobile for stuff where it really does make sense to use it rather then a cycle. So you have the background there on me that colors my view point.

billew

I do not adhere to the radical VC mind set and ride similarly and I was commenting on my higher speed riding situations, your "all in or all out". I have no problem using the shoulder if wide enough and clear of debris. I ride on highways with traffic moving at or above 50 mph on the shoulder. I do not ride VC when I am faster than traffic which happens in a tourist city all summer long. I am not into bike lanes as most are in the door zone but I will use no parking or buffered bike lanes gladly. It all depends on relative speed if you are faster than traffic then you can't pass them if you ride VC. With the new sharrows I sometimes ride in slow traffic just to educate drivers and cyclists by example when it's bumper to bumper or I want to relax and cruise. In short we are close in manner of riding on the road.

turbo1889

I pass slower moving automobiles sometimes when riding VC, it's just that I make the pass vehicular style, as in left side full lane change. That is usually in-town traffic in the left (fast) lane on roads with both low speed backed up traffic and more then one lane in the direction of travel.

A few times I've had the pleasure of making a full vehicular pass in the oncoming traffic lane when stuck behind a really slow automobile when there was a clear gap in oncoming traffic in the oncoming lane. That is so worth it, even if they speed up and then pass me afterwards. Just the look on their face in my mirror with their eyes just about popping out of their head when they realize that a guy on a pedal bicycle just passed them on the left side in the oncoming lane when there is a clear gap in oncoming traffic is so worth it. Apparently its some kind of earth shattering realization for them that like blows their mind. Doesn't happen very often, but I love doing it when an opportunity presents itself (usually happens on some of the more scenic back country roads that are narrow two lane paved that wind through the mountain valleys with a rubber necking group of tourists inside going slow).

One gal even drove part way off the edge of the road after I passed her because apparently it blew her mind so much that she like froze up or something. I admit it probably isn't the smartest or safest thing to do on the road with a bicycle but its a really good way to "get your kicks".

turbo1889

I think part of the differences between how we ride are due to the different environments we ride in.

For me in MT riding VC in-town in stop and go square grid traffic (sometimes bumper to bumper) is a series of hard sprints between red lights where I have to go as fast as I can and pedal as hard as I can to hold my place in traffic and waiting at red lights or slowing and stopping for stop signs is a welcome quick breather break before the next sprint. I understand that in other areas namely in the big cities traffic can slow down and back up so that its only moving at about 10-15 mph but in the smaller towns up here in my state in-town traffic moves at about 20-30 mph in-between the lights and I try to consistently break through the 20-mph speed barrier going that fast or slightly more in-between the lights. There is usually no shoulder edge for in-town roads and if there is a bike lane its a door zone lane that I ain't using and usually the lanes are narrow. So in-town riding for me in my area is usually VC riding as a series of sprints with little breather breaks at the lights and stop signs.

In contrast up her in MT raveling in-between towns is almost all on high speed highways with automobile traffic usually moving at 65-mph or more so I very much prefer to use either roads with a ride-able shoulder edge where I can ride OUT of the main traffic lanes or alternately a road with very little automobile traffic preferably a narrow two lane without any shoulder edge. The worst possibility is a narrow two lane with little or no ride-able shoulder edge and lots of high speed traffic. On those high speed roadways in-between towns riding OUT on the shoulder edge of a road with a lot of high speed automobile traffic works great and trying to take the lane when you don't need to looks like a really dumb idea. On the flip side a road with very little automobile traffic that is a narrow two lane with no shoulder edge works nearly as well because automobile traffic can almost always pass you right away with oncoming traffic rarely interfering and without any shoulder edge and narrow lanes its obvious that the only place to safely ride is in the main lane "taking the lane" so one rarely gets harassed by motorists for doing so. The worst is a two lane with a lot of high speed automobile traffic and medium width lanes that are wider then some other lanes but still not wide enough to safely share with automobiles side-by-side and a narrow foot wide shoulder edge. On those roads motorists can't easily pass and they see lanes that to their mind are wide enough to just barely share side-by-side and if you would just get over a little more they think they could just squeeze by and in their minds there is a shoulder edge that although its way too narrow and/or torn up they think you should be riding on instead of being in the main lane.

Where you are in RI it sounds to me like your in-town riding is automobiles backed up and crammed up such that riding VC in the lane slows you down rather then being a series of sprints between the welcome little breather breaks of red-lights and stop signs. It also sounds like some of your higher speed roads aren't as bad for riding in the main traffic lanes as what we have up in my area. So obviously with different riding conditions are styles are going to be different.

I'm glad though that I'm not the only one on this forum who realizes that neither the militant hard line VCers or the militant hard line anti-VCers have it right and that both riding styles are appropriate or in-appropriate in different situations and which should be used depends on the conditions.

sudo bike

I think one-size-fits all answers to cycling safety are often harmful, ultimately; it encourages a lack of critical thinking and defensive riding.

Rollfast

Moderators, please close this thread as being yet another hair-splitting argument from one of a few persistent posters. You shouldn't continually recycle a thread over and over expecting stuff.

I find it to be trolling.

turbo1889

I thought threads were only closed if they got nasty, not because someone keeps saying something you don't like?

I certainly don't agree with everything the OP of this thread posts but unless it gets nasty no need to close the thread, unless your trying to silence an apposing view point.

Just stop reading the threads he starts if it gets under your skin that much.

Doohickie

To a motorist who might hassle or road rage a cyclist, there is no difference between the red and the green cyclist. If their speed is impacted at all, they will go off.

turbo1889

For the most part I would agree. One should consider however that such a motorist is more likely to try to do a dangerous "squeeze pass" on the red cyclist crossing only partly over the yellow middle line and forcing oncoming traffic over to the right in the oncoming lane. But, as another poster already pointed out such a motorist might also try passing the green cyclist on the right side within the lane which could be just as dangerous.

billew

Yes I have to say that riding in the city of Newport is great for the most part with the whole city 25mph limit and even in the off season I hold my own keeping up with traffic. It is a colonial city laid out in a grid with many short one way streets and numerous stop signs and lights. I am always amazed that bike "advocates" wring their hands and say how dangerous it is. I ride one way streets VC and alll stops at intersections the same it's the only sure way to avoid a hook. I love my country two lanes out in western Rhode Island and Connecticut, like you said traffic is lighter and people just pass without much fanfare. I still get a jerk once in a while but all in all I live in a pretty sweet place to be carfree. There is a hill with a right turn at the bottom where I frequently get in the left lane and pass a few cars and blow a few minds that and passing seventy vehicles in bumper to bumper traffic puts me in a good mood.

genec

25MPH speed limits all over the city... sounds like bike heaven.

Try dealing with motorists on 55MPH 6 lane arterial roads and see how well you do.

turbo1889

^ Yup, you just hit the nail on the head, Genec, as to how when both the speed and density of heavy vehicle traffic is high the whole VC thing starts to fall apart.

VC "take the lane" riding style works great at slow traffic speeds where the speed differential between automobile vehicles and bicycle vehicles is minimal and it still works reasonably well even when automobile vehicles are moving a higher speeds and there is a larger speed differential if the traffic density is light enough to allow the faster vehicles to easily and safely pass either without or with minimal delay.

But once both the speed and density of automobile traffic gets high enough VC doesn't work and edge riding techniques and infrastructure that has some kind of decent shoulder edge or bike lanes on the road edge and reasonable accommodations for directional choice for cyclists without major hassle at intersections needs to be used instead.

billew

GeneC I have been on my share of higher speed 2 travel one turn lane highways. I will go anywhere I absolutely have to go but that doesn't mean I go out of my way to. The great thing about 375 year old towns is they were made for walking and horse drawn vehicles, the streets are narrow for the most part and lend themselves to taking the lane, of course everybody speeds and thinks they are the most important person in the world it is an american thing. I live in the city where the League Of American Wheelmen was founded. Newport has the highest percentage of bicycle commuters in the state according to the latest census.

Bekologist

Oh, absolutely. suggesting to always control a lane is horrendous advice. Generally, i ride right down the center of my best judgement.

Bob must not ride "big" in the lane. Bob- Throw your elbows out.

I-Like-To-Bike

Welcome back!