threshold when to decide between studs & just wider tires
02-07-17, 09:28 AM
#1
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threshold when to decide between studs & just wider tires
at what point would you decide to switch from studded tires to wider tires w/o studs?
3"?
3"?
02-07-17, 09:32 AM
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Ice. My rule is - studded tires when there will be ice. So, I put studded tires on when I can expect to encounter ice routinely on rides. As a general rule, that translates to around Thanksgiving in my area. It may not actually happen then, the weather being so weird now, but in theory it could/should. Around the first week in April is time to take them off.
I also go up in width and tread/traction in the fall when I expect to encounter slippery wet leaves or frost, so around late September, and again for April into mid-May, depending on weather patterns.
I only ride slicks/near slicks when I know it's not going to be slippery - so that is basically mid-May to late September.
I also go up in width and tread/traction in the fall when I expect to encounter slippery wet leaves or frost, so around late September, and again for April into mid-May, depending on weather patterns.
I only ride slicks/near slicks when I know it's not going to be slippery - so that is basically mid-May to late September.
Last edited by DaveQ24; 02-07-17 at 09:36 AM.
02-07-17, 10:33 AM
#3
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Studded anytime it is winter, or snow on the ground. Learned my lesson the hard way. Did a full on left body slam against the pavement in the rain. Literally the only pile of snow on the commute, a shadowy corner with some frozen melt unseen with the rain. Knocked the wind out of me with my left arm tucked under me and yes, the helmet worked well. 10 minutes later I shook it off and got my breathing and nerves back. And pedaled the last 8 miles to work. HTFU.
02-07-17, 10:55 AM
#4
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Non-studded 4" tires at 5psi are just as bad on ice as non-studded 23mm tires at 100psi. Studs are for ice. Nothing else sticks to it.
If there's 2" of snow on top of the ice, then 4" tires are great.
If there's 2" of snow on top of the ice, then 4" tires are great.
02-07-17, 11:04 AM
#5
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Studs mitigate slipping on ice. Extra wide tires mitigate travelling over loose snow. The two considerations are largely independent.
02-07-17, 11:20 AM
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Another voice saying that studs for ice or possibility of ice, regardless of tire width. Wider tires for deeper snow and wider tires for the uneven ruts that come after fresh untraveled snow. About the only thing snow-wise that narrower tires might be better on (IMHO) is not-too-deep fresh powdery snow and loose, unfrozen slush.
I just got back from a ride where the streets are coated with frozen drizzle. School busses could barely climb hills, cars spinning tires even on gentle take off for stop lights. Studs rule. I could climb, stop, turn, even start on hills. I wouldn't have necessarily known it was icey if it wasn't for what footing when I put my foot down (I slowed at stops, and did a semi-track-stand when I could). Yes, you need to be cautious and use good bike handling skills, even with studs. Yes studs cost money, yes they make noise. They probably add some drag (not that I notice it anymore, and snow adds much more drag, so it's just part of winter riding to me). No they don't do anything for snow: but where there's snow, there's likely to be ice.
If you pick your riding days, or can be selective on routes, or don't really ride in a winter climate, studs aren't needed. I generally don't, and do live in a winter climate, so studs on winter bikes. I can't convince my wife, but she just skips riding a lot of winter days.
I just got back from a ride where the streets are coated with frozen drizzle. School busses could barely climb hills, cars spinning tires even on gentle take off for stop lights. Studs rule. I could climb, stop, turn, even start on hills. I wouldn't have necessarily known it was icey if it wasn't for what footing when I put my foot down (I slowed at stops, and did a semi-track-stand when I could). Yes, you need to be cautious and use good bike handling skills, even with studs. Yes studs cost money, yes they make noise. They probably add some drag (not that I notice it anymore, and snow adds much more drag, so it's just part of winter riding to me). No they don't do anything for snow: but where there's snow, there's likely to be ice.
If you pick your riding days, or can be selective on routes, or don't really ride in a winter climate, studs aren't needed. I generally don't, and do live in a winter climate, so studs on winter bikes. I can't convince my wife, but she just skips riding a lot of winter days.
Last edited by FrankHudson; 02-07-17 at 11:23 AM. Reason: forgot to complete that last thought
03-25-17, 06:53 PM
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I use shwalbe's CX pro 32 in deep powder. Has way more grip in fresh snow. Rest of the time, studded 35's. Ice sucks without studs.
03-26-17, 05:04 AM
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Also nice is that they worked well at full pressure (90 psi). On the worst slippery day, I rode confidently, but had two near falls while walking.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-26-17 at 05:15 AM.
03-26-17, 06:03 PM
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I failed twice to choose the correct tire yesterday & today. rode w/o the studs. played w tire pressure to keep forward momentum & stay upright. but even if I used studs, these trails would have been best avoided
03-26-17, 07:06 PM
#13
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You never know how much ice is beneath any layer of snow.
Even at above freezing temperatures in the air, exposed snow is insulating what is underneath.
Compressed snow from car tire tracks or pedestrians create ice underneath.
Even a snowless trail may be coated with ice after an ice rain.
Even at above freezing temperatures in the air, exposed snow is insulating what is underneath.
Compressed snow from car tire tracks or pedestrians create ice underneath.
Even a snowless trail may be coated with ice after an ice rain.
03-27-17, 07:55 AM
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Another voice saying that studs for ice or possibility of ice, regardless of tire width. Wider tires for deeper snow and wider tires for the uneven ruts that come after fresh untraveled snow. About the only thing snow-wise that narrower tires might be better on (IMHO) is not-too-deep fresh powdery snow and loose, unfrozen slush.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-27-17 at 08:06 AM.
03-27-17, 02:01 PM
#15
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I was very happy to find out that I could get Marathon studded tires in a 30 C size for this winter for my Diverge beater bike, and I never needed to ride my wide, studded-tire mountain bike at all. All my winter (and otherwise) riding is on pavement mainly as a commuter, with extendable routes.
Also nice is that they worked well at full pressure (90 psi). On the worst slippery day, I rode confidently, but had two near falls while walking.
Also nice is that they worked well at full pressure (90 psi). On the worst slippery day, I rode confidently, but had two near falls while walking.
03-29-17, 04:23 AM
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I swapped out the Winter Marathons from my Montare for the third and hopefully final time this season.
03-29-17, 07:05 AM
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03-29-17, 08:20 AM
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90 psi seems way too high.The idea for studded tires is for them be slightly soft to conform to the bumps in the ice. I know you've been at this for a while and if it works for you, great. Are the studs right in the middle? My hakka pelittas are 700x 40 and I run 40-45 or so for psi.
This winter, the first with the Diverge, was not too bad. On the worst day as described previously, the slippery conditions were more slippery slush than hard ice, or snowpack.
Earlier this winter I had this discussion with fellow Bostonian, Archwhorides.
The Xerxes is an interesting design for a relatively minimal studded tire. The central ridge makes it a relatively fast-rolling tire in dry conditions at higher pressures, and you must lower the pressure quite a bit for the studs to engage the pavement. They are finicky that way, but I've learned to deal with it.
Today we had some interesting conditions to deal with: Wet snow precip duringthe morning commute, partially frozen on my evening commute, with rutted ice on various sections, particularly bridges on the MUP.
I'm happy that I threw the Xerxes on this morning, started them at 40 psi front and 55psi rear, let additional air out of the front tire until I could hear the studsdigging in at 35 psi. Once I got used to the relatively squenchier ride with the front wheel at lower pressure, I felt pretty comfortable and stable, but avoided leaning into any turns (you want more numerous studs for that), to avoid throwing the rear wheel into a death-slide.
Today we had some interesting conditions to deal with: Wet snow precip duringthe morning commute, partially frozen on my evening commute, with rutted ice on various sections, particularly bridges on the MUP.
I'm happy that I threw the Xerxes on this morning, started them at 40 psi front and 55psi rear, let additional air out of the front tire until I could hear the studsdigging in at 35 psi. Once I got used to the relatively squenchier ride with the front wheel at lower pressure, I felt pretty comfortable and stable, but avoided leaning into any turns (you want more numerous studs for that), to avoid throwing the rear wheel into a death-slide.
So I recently bought a Specialized Diverge Elite aluminum bike as a wet weather beater, and it rides nearly as nicely as the S-Works.The ride and shifting of the Diverge is as smooth as the S-Works, but the feelis more ”solid,” with 30 C tires. I think this is a great all-purpose bike…
Furthermore
The only [studded] tire I know of in 30C that might be better is the Schwalbe WINTER HS 396. It's a cheaper cousin of the Schwalbe Marathon Winter wth only 2 rows of studs instead of 4, but comes in 30c:
https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/winter...
https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/winter...
I’m hoping I can ride the Diverge with Marathon 30 C tires safely at usual pressures, as I have done on the Cannondale mountain bike.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-29-17 at 05:08 PM.
03-29-17, 08:41 AM
#19
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Those tires look like they really have minimal studs. Do they work? Seems like you would need more. Testing? Get some pond ice at low speed. Hit brakes? And lower pressure will do better for grip. Most studded tires have sidewall that are very thick. Try 50 psi front and 60 rear, even that seems too high for me. 225 lb rider plus gear here.
03-30-17, 05:22 AM
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I was very happy to find out that I could get Marathon studded tires in a 30 C size for this winter for my Diverge beater bike, and I never needed to ride my wide studded-tire mountain bike at all. All my winter (and otherwise) riding is on pavement mainly as a commuter...
Also nice is that they worked well at full pressure (90 psi). On the worst slippery day, I rode confidently, but had two near falls while walking. 90 psi is my usual tire pressure. I also have run my wide Marathon Winter studded tires on my mountain bike at normal pressure of 65 psi for the past several winters.
Also nice is that they worked well at full pressure (90 psi). On the worst slippery day, I rode confidently, but had two near falls while walking. 90 psi is my usual tire pressure. I also have run my wide Marathon Winter studded tires on my mountain bike at normal pressure of 65 psi for the past several winters.
Several years ago, when I was considering whether to get studded tires, this post by @tsl of Rochester, NY in the Lake Erie snowbelt convinced me. One thing I have tried to figure out is what’s a good way to test the studs on a given day with slick conditions, to make sure they will hold, without actually sliding off the road?
Those tires look like they really have minimal studs. Do they work? Seems like you would need more. Testing? Get some pond ice at low speed. Hit brakes? And lower pressure will do better for grip. Most studded tires have sidewall that are very thick. Try 50 psi front and 60 rear, even that seems too high for me. 225lb rider plus gear here.
Because I’m commuting (with time constraints) / riding for fitness, I want maximal efficiency so I ‘m reluctant to lower the pressure and make the ride “squenchier,” as described by @Archwhorides. Also as described by others, the alleged increased rolling resistance of studded tires seems negligible for the Marathon Winters, as well as for the Marathon 30C tires in my experience. (I also have inserted tireliners in the bikes to avert flats.)
I inquired about testing the studs, because unlike a frozen pond, which I never pass, it’s unusual to have significantly long stretches of slippery road to test the studs. If the surface is that slippery continuously, then I’ll soon find out.
On that previously described slippery slush, I didn’t realize how slippery it was, until I was off the bike walking on the sidewalk.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-30-17 at 05:54 AM.
03-30-17, 07:29 AM
#21
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^^^^ Interesting. North of the city, they plow the MM bikepath, good but leaves icy glaze on the whole surface. Really. I also go through some dirt roads and walking paths too. No salt or sand, post holes at times with the most nasty rutted surface ever. And some other connecting bike paths as well. Been wanting to really test out the studded tire issues this winter with the fat bike and 26x 4" tires. Did not get the combo of either snow, ice and less road salt this winter for that. Maybe the 10 psi or 32x11 drivetrain pulled the plug on that. That and the 17 miles. Next winter.
03-30-17, 08:27 AM
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Forecast of possible ice-rain and light snow later today for the Toronto region. Not taking any chances. Took out the fat bike with studded tires for commute to work.
03-30-17, 08:45 AM
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