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  1. #1
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Wind chill - Minutes to Frostbite
    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/wi...ze_table_e.cfm
    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/wi...ll_chart_e.cfm

    These are charts letting you know how many minutes it will take to begin to develop frostbite at different temperatures and wind speeds. Note that the charts are Canadian so the temperatures are Celcius and the windspeeds are in Kilometers.


    Wind Chill Hazards
    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/wi...ld_chart_e.cfm

    This is a chart letting you know the risk at certain temperatures and how to dress for them

    This little paragraph at the bottom there is interesting!!

    "**In parts of the country with a milder climate (such as southern Ontario and the Atlantic provinces except Labrador), a wind chill warning is issued at about -35. Further north, people have grown more accustomed to the cold, and have adapted to the more severe conditions. Because of this, Environment Canada issues warnings at progressively colder wind chill values as you move north. Most of Canada hears a warning at about -45. Residents of the Arctic, northern Manitoba and northern Quebec are warned at about -50, and those of the high Arctic, at about -55."


    This is the entire WindChill site which Environment Canada has put together. It includes all sorts of charts, online calculators, scientific equations, and so on:
    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/windchill/index_e.cfm



    And if, for some reason, you are not familiar with the metric system... here's a conversion site that will help:
    http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm
    http://www.onlineconversion.com/

  2. #2
    Dog is my co-pilot 2manybikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka
    Wind chill - Minutes to Frostbite
    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/wi...ze_table_e.cfm
    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/wi...ll_chart_e.cfm

    These are charts letting you know how many minutes it will take to begin to develop frostbite at different temperatures and wind speeds. Note that the charts are Canadian so the temperatures are Celcius and the windspeeds are in Kilometers.


    Wind Chill Hazards
    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/wi...ld_chart_e.cfm

    This is a chart letting you know the risk at certain temperatures and how to dress for them

    This little paragraph at the bottom there is interesting!!

    "**In parts of the country with a milder climate (such as southern Ontario and the Atlantic provinces except Labrador), a wind chill warning is issued at about -35. Further north, people have grown more accustomed to the cold, and have adapted to the more severe conditions. Because of this, Environment Canada issues warnings at progressively colder wind chill values as you move north. Most of Canada hears a warning at about -45. Residents of the Arctic, northern Manitoba and northern Quebec are warned at about -50, and those of the high Arctic, at about -55."


    This is the entire WindChill site which Environment Canada has put together. It includes all sorts of charts, online calculators, scientific equations, and so on:
    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/windchill/index_e.cfm



    And if, for some reason, you are not familiar with the metric system... here's a conversion site that will help:
    http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm
    http://www.onlineconversion.com/

    That's amazing about the adaptation to the cold and the different warning levels! It is important for anyone outside in the cold to understand this. I learned my lesson with a small gap between my mittens and my sleeve on a dogsled being pulled by a snowmobile when I was about 15.

    I rode (and still do) with a thermometer on my handlebars in winter for about 10 years. I calculated wind chills with a wind chill chart etc.I have a thermometer that has a wind chill chart on it. Over the years I learned about what to wear for what temperature, which makes it easier to get dressed before a ride.
    I finally stopped even thinking about wind chill a few years ago and just made sure there is always a way to cover all my skin. I have a neck gaiter and I can pull it up under my goggles or glasses if I need to. When it's very cold I wear two. If it's really windy I just dress a little warmer. I bring goggles If I wear glasses if it's very cold anyway. I rode motorcycles in the cold and snow for decades, the wind chill factor is much worse. With the bicycle I find I need to have a way to adjust what I wear a little for the amount of heat I produce and the speed of the bike. I fine tune how warm I am by how much effort I expend when I need to.

    ~ If it's cold keep the skin covered*~

    *However it is very important for new winter riders to be careful and to look at a chart just to get an idea of what happens.

    I was over thinking the whole thing. I tend to err on the side of safety anyway, that's just me.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #3
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    Here is something similar> (U.S. Friendly)

    http://www.accuweather.com/iwxpage/paws/windchill.htm

  4. #4
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    I am just full of questions on this topic.

    Let's say it's a still day, no wind. Is the wind speed equivalent to your riding speed?

    Can you add headwind speed to riding speed? Can you subtract tailwind speed from riding speed? What about crosswinds?

    Finally, about "frostbite." Are there cold injuries that are less serious than frostbite? Should we worry about those at warmer temperatures?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  5. #5
    Rides again HiYoSilver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger
    Here is something similar> (U.S. Friendly)

    http://www.accuweather.com/iwxpage/paws/windchill.htm

    BAD chart, even if it is easy to read. Times should be in minutes not seconds and equivalent temps are way way off.

    Here's the real chart:
    http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/


    Here's an explanation of the chart
    http://www.weatherimages.org/data/windchill.html

    This link has a cool graph comparing pre 2001 wind chill and post 2001 wind chill charts
    http://www.compuweather.com/shared/newwindchill.htm
    Hi 'o Silver away

  6. #6
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    In Florida they issue windchill warnings when it drops below 50 degrees. Just kidding.

    I'm not going to use a chart to determine if I am feeling the effects of windchill, and also know from experience you can experience wind chill when its 55 degrees out...charts don't feel cold.

    I've given myself hypothermia (and frostnip and bite) on more than a few occassions in my last 4 decades, and I can't recommend waiting until its 5 below zero (or whatever temp) to see if I'm going to be effected by wind chill according to a chart or two I'd seen on the internet.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  7. #7
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    In Florida they issue windchill warnings when it drops below 50 degrees. Just kidding.

    I'm not going to use a chart to determine if I am feeling the effects of windchill, and also know from experience you can experience wind chill when its 55 degrees out...charts don't feel cold.

    I've given myself hypothermia (and frostnip and bite) on more than a few occassions in my last 4 decades, and I can't recommend waiting until its 5 below zero (or whatever temp) to see if I'm going to be effected by wind chill according to a chart or two I'd seen on the internet.

    But it's not just a chart someone drew up at random. They did actual human testing to create it. Take a look at the article:

    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/wi.../history_e.cfm

  8. #8
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    That's just great machka. I can probably dig up a chart that tells me how often I REALLY need to oil my chain too.....



    Windchill is a perceived phenomenon, and again, charts don't feel cold.

    I think that's valuable you dug them up, but I'm saying, 'don't put a lot of faith in charts when your winter survival is on the line.' go with your actual experience- if you feel chilled, you are experiencing it, even if a chart, or a stout, hardy Canadian, says you shouldn't.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 12-21-05 at 03:12 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  9. #9
    Bike Junkie roccobike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka
    But it's not just a chart someone drew up at random. They did actual human testing to create it. Take a look at the article:

    http://www.msc.ec.gc.ca/education/wi.../history_e.cfm
    Wow, I can't believe they found 12 people to volunteer to test the limits of frostbite. My idea of human testing is to determine how many Coors Lights one can consume and still ride your bike safely. If you ever hear of that test, let me know.
    Roccobike BF Official Thread Terminator

  10. #10
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    a lot of frostbite and hypothermia data referred to today was gleaned by the Nazis in experiments run at the camps, unfortunately.

    Some wacko scientist nut in Duluth, or Winnepeg, (Dr. Popsicle?) is working on pushing the limits of human cold endurance and is the source of a lot of the updated data on hypo and cold effects, but he's 100 percent WACKED.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 12-21-05 at 03:57 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  11. #11
    Banned Bikepacker67's Avatar
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    Ok, Ok... We Get It, Machka...
    Not only are you Marathon woman - but you're queen of the ice cats


    (Love those chubby cheeks, BTW... Evolutionary adaptation?)

  12. #12
    DNPAIMFB pinkrobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    I am just full of questions on this topic.

    Let's say it's a still day, no wind. Is the wind speed equivalent to your riding speed?

    Can you add headwind speed to riding speed? Can you subtract tailwind speed from riding speed? What about crosswinds?

    Finally, about "frostbite." Are there cold injuries that are less serious than frostbite? Should we worry about those at warmer temperatures?
    Wind speed is whatever speed you're moving through the wind at. I found this out the hard way about a month ago, when a balmy -12C at the house became enough to freeze a little section of skin on my forehead on a 50 km/h downhill. It's still peeling a bit. On the flip side, if there's a 20 km/h tailwind, and you're riding 20 km/h, the effective wind speed on you is 0. Since the wind rarely goes exactly in the same direction as you do, there will always be a little breeze, but you get the idea.

    This also means that wind speed + your speed is a nasty effect. If both are 20 km/h, you end up with an effective 40km/h wind. Bundle up

    Less serious than frostbite is "exposure". It's the next best thing, where you mostly freeze, but there's no permanent damage to tissue. You can suffer exposure in the summertime if you're not dressed for a cool night in the mountains. Hypothermia can occur as well, followed by coma and death.
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  13. #13
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikepacker67
    Machka...
    Not only are you Marathon woman - but you're queen of the ice cats
    and for a woman so accustomed to cold, but HOT! as well, this must help keep the frostnip at bay, I believe. (No offense intended, Machka. )
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #14
    Banned Bikepacker67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    and for a woman so accustomed to cold, but HOT! as well, this must help keep the frostnip at bay, I believe. (No offense intended, Machka. )
    I find humor in the fact that you, Bek, actually qualified that pefectly acceptable compliment with a beg to grace.

    You and I both know that Machka can kick our gonads with her mind.

  15. #15
    In Transition fruitless's Avatar
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    I can vouch that it is very possible to ride yourself into the frostbite zone via windchill, anywhere around -5F down. Exposed skin that is away from the nose/mouth area will be susceptible and it doesn't take very long. I just slow down a little now whenever its below zero and make sure my ears and neck are covered, its pretty much the same rules with downhill skiing on a particularly cold day.

  16. #16
    Tail End Charlie Ritehsedad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka
    They did actual human testing to create it.
    "OK, you survived 30 below, now we'll try 40 below...Is it cold enough for you yet dude? Dude? Hey dude! (sigh) OK bring in the next subject!"
    Why isn't 11 pronounced onety one?

  17. #17
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    much of the baseline data about hypothermia and exposure in use today was gathered using completely involuntarily subjects at the Nazi concentration camps, rithesdad. It's NOT that funny, unfortunately....
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  18. #18
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    much of the baseline data about hypothermia and exposure in use today was gathered using completely involuntarily subjects at the Nazi concentration camps, rithesdad. It's NOT that funny, unfortunately....

    Did you read the article I posted? All volunteers. No Nazi concentration camps.

  19. #19
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I just read down to catch that salient fact, Machka....I know new research has been (is being) done in the last 5-10 years to update cold sciences, but do not want to forget the fact that a lot of the baseline data, and the research done to develop hypothermia and frostbite data, was done by the Nazis, and that this is the baseline data, even used in the study you linked too.... I guess a modern day 'volunteer' asking for hypo in a controlled experiment is bonechillingly humorous....
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #20
    In Transition fruitless's Avatar
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    bekologist wins the prize for being the first person to bring up nazis in this thread, and we didn't even get through 1 page!

  21. #21
    meh Hypno Toad's Avatar
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    This is a very old thread, but I want to give it a BUMP since we are headed for an Arctic Bomb here in Minne. Most of the links above are broken; I'd like to understand the methodology of the test. My expectation is a person sitting in extreme cold, not an active person in the same conditions.

    We were talking about cold feet in the 50+ forum and it got into other cold topics, specifically, can you have exposed flesh at -20F without threat of frostbite? My post below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
    I'm sorry but I just don't buy this. According to the National Weather Service, at -20F unexposed flesh will begin to develop frostbite in 30 minutes, and that's with no wind. If you're cycling at 15 mph, still assuming no other wind, frostbite will develop in 10 minutes. If you're cycling at 15 mph into a 20 mph wind, it will develop in a mere 5 minutes. So unless you're taking extremely short rides at slow speed with little or no wind, at -20F you're in serious danger of developing frostbite in a very short time.
    HA! What you 'buy' isn't very relevant. Come for a ride with me and then we can talk.

    NWS and other weather organizations are 'protecting' the masses, and these warnings are correct for the masses. They also advise against physical activity when the heat index gets over 100F, but I'm sure you see tons of people around Baltimore out running and biking on those days.

    You need to considering core body temperature.
    At or below 0 C (32 F), blood vessels close to the skin start to constrict, and blood is shunted away from the extremities via the action of glomus bodies. The same response may also be a result of exposure to high winds. This constriction helps to preserve core body temperature. In extreme cold, or when the body is exposed to cold for long periods, this protective strategy can reduce blood flow in some areas of the body to dangerously low levels.
    Frostbite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The body's core temperature is the key control in this response, not the skin's temperature. If you keep the core body temperature high by exercising, like you know ....biking, you keep your core hot. This will allow your body to continue to send blood to the skin, in fact, when the core is too hot, it will use the skin to cool the core (just like a hot day).

    There was a great PBS show years ago featuring Laird Hamilton in extreme cold conditions with his skin exposed (just wearing board shorts), but he was wearing an electrically heated vest. He was able to stay in the extreme cold for significant time because his core was warm.

    My coldest commute: Garmin data from January 8, 2014 near Minneapolis (with a 20 mph head wind):

    Attachment 417038

    I had a winter bandanna around my neck, wool skullcap under my helmet and was wearing goggles until they froze over with my sweat (about 5 miles in) and finished the ride with my eyes exposed with frozen tears hanging from my lashes. Example from a 'warmer' day (only -7F):
    Attachment 417040

    Edit - one more piece of data, heart monitor: I had a monitor hooked up to Endomondo, for Jan 8: average HR 140 and max 170. Riding in the snow is a lot more work than clear pavement. Therefore, if you see average speed 10 mph as slow and assume low effort... that would be a bad assumption.
    PS - I have had issues with cold exposure but not exposed skin, mostly my feet. Last Saturday, I was out for 35 miles in 30F weather and neglected to bring shoe covers. The 20 mph headwind on the way home left parts of my feet white and numb. After getting home, I took off the shoes and socks, warmed my feet with my bare hands (not rubbing, just holding them). It took about 15 minutes to get the color back and no lasting issues.
    I didn't say it was your fault, I said I'm blaming you. There's a difference.

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