I gotta admit: I am afraid of black ICE
12-06-07, 07:40 AM
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The problem is that there is no friction with the surface to work with to maintain control.
12-06-07, 08:27 AM
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There are many kinds of "ice" conditions. Almost limitless.
Many kinds of ice can be ridden on without studded tires. Mainly flat ice that has the top warmed by the sun and is a little soft. Like a lake on a sunny day.
There are lots of kinds of ice you could never possibly ride a bike over without studs, it's just impossible.
One example is a MUP with a lot of bumps and frozen 3" deep footprints in the ice that is frozen very, very, hard. But large tires with a good size air pocket and very low pressure can go right over it.
There are lots of variations in between that will work, and won't work with studs. The real answer about ice riding is "it depends". Not yes or no.
This was a warm day and no studs were needed the top of the ice was soft, almost damp. You just had to be very carefull. Thoses tires have no studs.
This was hard frozen and lots of huge bumps close together, one could not have ridden a two wheeled vehicle 10 feet without studs.
Many kinds of ice can be ridden on without studded tires. Mainly flat ice that has the top warmed by the sun and is a little soft. Like a lake on a sunny day.
There are lots of kinds of ice you could never possibly ride a bike over without studs, it's just impossible.
One example is a MUP with a lot of bumps and frozen 3" deep footprints in the ice that is frozen very, very, hard. But large tires with a good size air pocket and very low pressure can go right over it.
There are lots of variations in between that will work, and won't work with studs. The real answer about ice riding is "it depends". Not yes or no.
This was a warm day and no studs were needed the top of the ice was soft, almost damp. You just had to be very carefull. Thoses tires have no studs.
This was hard frozen and lots of huge bumps close together, one could not have ridden a two wheeled vehicle 10 feet without studs.
12-06-07, 10:11 AM
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It's worth mentioning too that technique is just as important as equipment in winter riding. Perhaps even more important than equipment.
Good technique can keep a studless rider upright, and poor technique can make a studded rider fall.
Two things that are very important: First, slow down before turning and don't lean in the turns. If you brake in a turn it's sure-fire way to go down. Leaning like you do in the dry will also take you down, which is why you turn at a much slower speed in the slippery stuff.
Second, ride loose and relaxed. This is the exact opposite of what your reflexes tell you to do. With a loose grip on the bars, relaxed arms, shoulders and back, you'll be able to ride out most anything. Death grip on the bars and stiff arms, shoulders and back, and it's much more difficult to maintain control, and certainly a lot less fun. (Note: You'll also stay warmer if you stay loose.)
I have to re-learn this every year, and sometimes every ride. Resisting the death grip, stiff and tense reflex is the hardest part of my winter riding.
Good technique can keep a studless rider upright, and poor technique can make a studded rider fall.
Two things that are very important: First, slow down before turning and don't lean in the turns. If you brake in a turn it's sure-fire way to go down. Leaning like you do in the dry will also take you down, which is why you turn at a much slower speed in the slippery stuff.
Second, ride loose and relaxed. This is the exact opposite of what your reflexes tell you to do. With a loose grip on the bars, relaxed arms, shoulders and back, you'll be able to ride out most anything. Death grip on the bars and stiff arms, shoulders and back, and it's much more difficult to maintain control, and certainly a lot less fun. (Note: You'll also stay warmer if you stay loose.)
I have to re-learn this every year, and sometimes every ride. Resisting the death grip, stiff and tense reflex is the hardest part of my winter riding.
12-06-07, 10:48 AM
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Or ice of any color.
Studs take all the drama out of winter riding. Besides letting your ride safely on ice, the also let you stop and steer on it.
I was riding mid-pack on a group ride last night (26 riders, snowing, temps in the lower 20s). Pulling up to a stop sign, the front riders began calling out "Ice, right". I saw snow, but not ice. Then I put my foot down after stopping. I had stopped on the (white) ice which was hidden under the snow. My foot slid a little when I put it down, but holding the brakes kept me in place. Then two (studless) riders behind me slid into the back of my bike. Ooopsie!
The point here is that the studs work so well, I needed my foot and other riders to know I was even on ice.
Studs take all the drama out of winter riding. Besides letting your ride safely on ice, the also let you stop and steer on it.
I was riding mid-pack on a group ride last night (26 riders, snowing, temps in the lower 20s). Pulling up to a stop sign, the front riders began calling out "Ice, right". I saw snow, but not ice. Then I put my foot down after stopping. I had stopped on the (white) ice which was hidden under the snow. My foot slid a little when I put it down, but holding the brakes kept me in place. Then two (studless) riders behind me slid into the back of my bike. Ooopsie!
The point here is that the studs work so well, I needed my foot and other riders to know I was even on ice.
But as you know the weather around here can be pretty variable. If I knew I'd be commuting on snow and ice all winter I'd have no hesitation. But sometimes we get dry or warmer spells in which there's no ice or snow.
How do studded tires affect performance on dry roads? If I want to go out and do a 20 mile ride, including hills, on dry roads, what effect will studs have?
12-06-07, 03:15 PM
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Anticipate where ice might be. Where ever a puddle might exist is where the ice hides so don't ride in the low areas. I find the fear of falling is worse than the fall itself. Go out in the backyard and fall in the snow a few times. That might help you relax on the road.
You might want to take some classes at a local gymnastics, dance, or martial arts school to learn how to fall without hurting yourself.
12-06-07, 03:18 PM
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I've bashed my knees too many times riding in the winter.What I did was get a set of used hockey elbow and knee-pads at PlayItAgainSports(used sporting goods)for $8.I wear them under a pair of sweat pants so I'm not nearly as concerned at taking a fall.During the winter you're pretty well padded up top anyway.I smacked my elbow really good once(hence the elbow pads).It may not make a fashion statement but that 's not where I'm at anyway.
12-06-07, 03:20 PM
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If you do feel yourself going, as soon as you realize that you aren't going to be able to make a recovery, go as limp as you can. Get your soft tissues to absorb as much of the impact as you can; you may be bruised, but with no broken bones you should be able to get home OK.
12-06-07, 06:13 PM
#36
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Prior to this I rode my hardtail as my winter bike, with no studs and suffered no falls and also have my cross bike to use if the streets are dry enough.
Right now we have a good amount of snow and extremely icy roads and with only a front studded tire I have been doing fine with no traction issues.
12-06-07, 07:56 PM
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But as you know the weather around here can be pretty variable. If I knew I'd be commuting on snow and ice all winter I'd have no hesitation. But sometimes we get dry or warmer spells in which there's no ice or snow.
How do studded tires affect performance on dry roads? If I want to go out and do a 20 mile ride, including hills, on dry roads, what effect will studs have?
How do studded tires affect performance on dry roads? If I want to go out and do a 20 mile ride, including hills, on dry roads, what effect will studs have?
On the other hand, they're much heavier than my road tires--something like 850 grams each. Coupled with the gumwall construction, they take 2-3 MPH off my speeds on dry pavement in good conditions. A 13-mile route where I average 16.7 to 17.3 with the road tires, I did recently at 13.9. It was about the same last year on a completely different bike (weight, geometry, gearing).
Last year I kept an eye on the five-day forecast and switched tires whenever it looked like 3-4 days of good, above freezing weather. I've gone a step further this year and have two wheelsets. This also lets me use a different cassette. I strongly prefer close-ratio cassettes. I run a 12-23 (10-speed) with the road tires, vs. a 16-27 with the snows. That makes a world of difference given that the snows are harder to push. I'm very happy with the lower gearing.
If I didn't have choices, or if I found swapping to be a chore, I'd leave them on all winter. Since I don't mind changing tires and I have choices, I take them.
12-06-07, 08:02 PM
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The Nokians are a little buzzy through the bars, and you'll hear the studs on the pavement, but they're not significantly different in handling or control in the dry. I was pleasantly surprised for discover this. I had expected cornering to be exciting for all the wrong reasons. It's not.
On the other hand, they're much heavier than my road tires--something like 850 grams each. Coupled with the gumwall construction, they take 2-3 MPH off my speeds on dry pavement in good conditions. A 13-mile route where I average 16.7 to 17.3 with the road tires, I did recently at 13.9. It was about the same last year on a completely different bike (weight, geometry, gearing).
Last year I kept an eye on the five-day forecast and switched tires whenever it looked like 3-4 days of good, above freezing weather. I've gone a step further this year and have two wheelsets. This also lets me use a different cassette. I strongly prefer close-ratio cassettes. I run a 12-23 (10-speed) with the road tires, vs. a 16-27 with the snows. That makes a world of difference given that the snows are harder to push. I'm very happy with the lower gearing.
If I didn't have choices, or if I found swapping to be a chore, I'd leave them on all winter. Since I don't mind changing tires and I have choices, I take them.
On the other hand, they're much heavier than my road tires--something like 850 grams each. Coupled with the gumwall construction, they take 2-3 MPH off my speeds on dry pavement in good conditions. A 13-mile route where I average 16.7 to 17.3 with the road tires, I did recently at 13.9. It was about the same last year on a completely different bike (weight, geometry, gearing).
Last year I kept an eye on the five-day forecast and switched tires whenever it looked like 3-4 days of good, above freezing weather. I've gone a step further this year and have two wheelsets. This also lets me use a different cassette. I strongly prefer close-ratio cassettes. I run a 12-23 (10-speed) with the road tires, vs. a 16-27 with the snows. That makes a world of difference given that the snows are harder to push. I'm very happy with the lower gearing.
If I didn't have choices, or if I found swapping to be a chore, I'd leave them on all winter. Since I don't mind changing tires and I have choices, I take them.
12-07-07, 04:10 AM
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tsl... you bring up something bothering my newbie mind. Alas, I have never changed a bike tire (I can hear the jeers from here!) How hard is it? Can't be too bad. I read a million posts about I switch this, I switched that and now here you are switching back and forth according to thermometer readings! Though I do get the allure of different wheel sets for ease. I think I'm going to get the mount and ground or the hak 106 for my mtb (also appreciate your comment on gearing, I had figured as much) and I'd like to put them on myself. Should I just go to that online cycling bible the name of which I forget and do they have step by step instructions? Literally I'm at the point where I'm thinking.. okay, probably you have to deflate the tire before removal. More jeers from the gallery? Okay, but I can laugh at myself, and heartily, too. But if you can point me to a site... or give me pointers....
Shhhhhh.
oh, and I have always enjoyed your avatar.
Shhhhhh.
oh, and I have always enjoyed your avatar.
12-07-07, 07:42 AM
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Mulchie--Keep in mind that all the switching reflects my personality and lifestyle. Most people I know IRL (In Real Life) and most people here just put the snows on once and don't mess with it until spring. Me? I enjoy tinkering and I have the time to do it. Further, I have this obsession with getting faster. So whenever the opportunity comes along to instantly gain 2-3 mph, I take it.
On the other hand, it wasn't until I was changing tires frequently last winter that I got pretty good at it. I ruined a tube or two along the way, but that's tuition in the school of hard knocks.
I don't have any manuals or online references to send you to. I knew the basic principles from working at a garage changing car tires years and years ago. I watched a ride partner fix a flat one day to learn the different execution of the principles as applied to bike tires. Ask up on the Bicycle Mechanics forum. I'm sure someone there knows where you can find online instruction.
As for the gearing, again, that's my personal preferences showing. (I'm also aware of the consequences--both physical and mechanical.) Most riders I know are perfectly happy with standard cassettes having several-tooth jumps between the the gears. (And for MTBers, that's really the only choice out there.) I like being able to fine-tune effort vs. speed, particularly in varying terrain and headwinds. Close-ratio cassettes let me do that.
When I switched to 10-speed this year, I was delighted to find Shimano makes a 16-27 Ultegra cassette. So now I have three for this bike. The original 12-27 which I almost never use, the 12-23 on the three-season wheelset, and the 16-27 on the winter wheelset.
In any event, before becoming concerned with constantly switching tires or messing with cassettes and gear ratios, see if just putting on the snows and riding works for you by itself. It does for the vast majority of riders.
On the other hand, it wasn't until I was changing tires frequently last winter that I got pretty good at it. I ruined a tube or two along the way, but that's tuition in the school of hard knocks.
I don't have any manuals or online references to send you to. I knew the basic principles from working at a garage changing car tires years and years ago. I watched a ride partner fix a flat one day to learn the different execution of the principles as applied to bike tires. Ask up on the Bicycle Mechanics forum. I'm sure someone there knows where you can find online instruction.
As for the gearing, again, that's my personal preferences showing. (I'm also aware of the consequences--both physical and mechanical.) Most riders I know are perfectly happy with standard cassettes having several-tooth jumps between the the gears. (And for MTBers, that's really the only choice out there.) I like being able to fine-tune effort vs. speed, particularly in varying terrain and headwinds. Close-ratio cassettes let me do that.
When I switched to 10-speed this year, I was delighted to find Shimano makes a 16-27 Ultegra cassette. So now I have three for this bike. The original 12-27 which I almost never use, the 12-23 on the three-season wheelset, and the 16-27 on the winter wheelset.
In any event, before becoming concerned with constantly switching tires or messing with cassettes and gear ratios, see if just putting on the snows and riding works for you by itself. It does for the vast majority of riders.
12-07-07, 07:47 AM
#41
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With studded tires, black ice is a wonderful riding surface. Once you hit it, the stud buzz suddenly stops and the ride takes on a dreamlike smoothness. Nokian W-106 is good for commuting on roads. They make more aggressive tires, but the rooling resistance is much greater.
Paul
Paul
12-07-07, 10:33 AM
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Hey, TSL- trust me, I'm not also going to start changing chains! I took apart typewriters as a kid (teens) and that was fun, but that was then. I'll stick with what's on what I got. I think I'm going to have my LBS put on the tires this time but ask if I can watch. I used to be a reporter, and that's how I learn best.
thanks for all your help.
And Paul, I'm risking the increased resistance and going for the m&g 160, but appreciate the thought. Hi to my old home town, where I NEVER biked.
thanks for all your help.
And Paul, I'm risking the increased resistance and going for the m&g 160, but appreciate the thought. Hi to my old home town, where I NEVER biked.
12-07-07, 01:55 PM
#43
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Here's some video I shot of a typical Anchorage street. You can see various patterns of ice and snow. With the nokians on this is a VERY stable ride, though you'll not set any land speed records.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY7jlp6lIUE
I've actually had much more trouble with lots of fresh snow. Also, this stuff I call "rime" ice that builds up under certain conditions can be surprisingly tough to pedal through, though it doesn't look like much. It's like a million little ice crystals that build tiny forests of ice all over the concrete, each one putting up resistance to your tire. Last weekend that stuff was over miles of otherwise clear track and it left me feeling like I was riding up a serious hill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY7jlp6lIUE
I've actually had much more trouble with lots of fresh snow. Also, this stuff I call "rime" ice that builds up under certain conditions can be surprisingly tough to pedal through, though it doesn't look like much. It's like a million little ice crystals that build tiny forests of ice all over the concrete, each one putting up resistance to your tire. Last weekend that stuff was over miles of otherwise clear track and it left me feeling like I was riding up a serious hill.
