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  1. #26
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    Update,

    I mentioned in the last post that I have found what I think will be some good materials for resisting the transfer of heat out of the sole of the shoe. I read in another thread about these aerogel insoles which are reasonably priced.

    http://workingperson.com/products/22...soles_TFM.html

    I then read a review that said that they really did help keep your foot warmer and that they wear for a reasonable amount of time. So I did some research on aerogels since I have heard of them before as they are used in the audio field to make speaker cones out of. It turns out that this family of materials have the highest insulation value per unit thickness of any material.

    So I decided that they would make good foot bed liners in my winter cycling shoe project. I then did some more research and found a company that makes industrial aerogel materials for insulation of pipes and other things.

    http://www.aerogel.com/products/overview.html

    I think the Pyrogel 2250 would be just about the most perfect thing to make an insulator gasket out of and place under the glassfiber/epoxy plate. So I'm hoping that I can get a small sample from Aspen aerogels of this material to use. I think this approach of using a glassfiber compostie plate and aerogel insulator and aerogel insoles will stop a lot of the heat transfer out of the shoe from the pedal. At least that is my hope.

  2. #27
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    Update,

    Today I received a package from Outdoor Wilderness Products with the material for the boot covers. I also bought a few things at Kirkhams AAA so now I have enough materials to make two pair of outer boot covers. I have two different types of material for the bottom walking surface to try out. The only thing that I lack is some polar fleece remnants, which I can get at the local craft/fabric store for 4 dollars, for the insulation layer. So far, I have spent about 31 dollars on the materials.

    Since I don't have a commercial sewing machine I have come up with a plan that I think will work to make these things. The part that I will have trouble with is the sole. But I think that I can sew everything that I need to except the sole either with the machine I have or by hand. What I want to do with the sole is cut out a piece of plywood the same shape as the sole and use it as a form to work on. The method that I envision is to cut out a piece of cordura the same shape as the sole and sew the upper to this and then stretch it around the plywood form. Then I will use Shoe Goo or some kind of appropriate adhesive to glue the final outer sole material to the cordura sole. This should make a kind of waterproof barrier on the bottom. So that small amounts of water which might be walked on won't soak in as much through the sole.

  3. #28
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    what about over ...

    Curiak's system is the bomb but of course only works because his feet are 6 sizes smaller than the largest Lake Cycling boot.

    What is not explored here is starting with a winter cycling boot and doing the same thing you do with cycling SHOES to extend their temperature range. What about overboots? The thing I do to increase my temperature range is wear Outdoor Research Gaters. This effectively elminates heat loss from the cuff and turns the entire lower leg into a heater. The cost though is that you can no longer get at laces and straps for shoe adjustment.

    Answer Kashmirs (2 sizes too big) down to about 15 degrees using using gaters with double wool socks on the inside. Haven't tried overshooes over the boots yet. But it has to help.

    BTW, I noticed that Lake is now selling a "boot" style boot.

    Looks comfy to me and it's only $170.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BearSquirrel View Post
    Curiak's system is the bomb but of course only works because his feet are 6 sizes smaller than the largest Lake Cycling boot.

    What is not explored here is starting with a winter cycling boot and doing the same thing you do with cycling SHOES to extend their temperature range. What about overboots? The thing I do to increase my temperature range is wear Outdoor Research Gaters. This effectively elminates heat loss from the cuff and turns the entire lower leg into a heater. The cost though is that you can no longer get at laces and straps for shoe adjustment.

    Answer Kashmirs (2 sizes too big) down to about 15 degrees using using gaters with double wool socks on the inside. Haven't tried overshooes over the boots yet. But it has to help.

    BTW, I noticed that Lake is now selling a "boot" style boot.

    Looks comfy to me and it's only $170.
    The problem with the winter cycling boot approach is that the current crop of winter cycling boots are not breathable enough. They are all lined with neoprene. So they trap too much moisture to be useful for more than an hour or so in colder temperatures. So you would in all actuality be better off starting with a super light breathable climbing shoe or maybe something like those new Lake boots if they are breathable. However, there seems to be a new crop of winter cycling boots models that have come out new this year that seem to use gore-tex instead of neoprene and seem to me that they might be breathable enough as a place to start. There are new shoes from Shimano and Pearl Izumi, plus the Northwaves may be breathable.

    However, bear in mind that I am trying to build a system that is both warm and performance oriented. Meaning that it will be light and responsive. And easier to get on and off without having to layer so many socks and other layers. It is not intended to be something so rugged that you could walk in it for miles. For something like an alaska expedition you would need something like the Brooks Ranger overboot over a lightweight climbing boot. Or if your feet were small enough you could use Curiak's method. I even think you could use a Brooks Ranger overboot over a regular cycling shoe but this will add quite a bit of weight.
    Last edited by Hezz; 11-30-08 at 12:46 PM.

  5. #30
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    Update,

    I got most of the material cut out. Nothing exciting enough to take a picture of. The sewing part is going to take some doing. I've got a Powershield like material for the outer and a lightweight stretch fleece for the lining. But now I am considering putting a middle insulating layer of thinsulate or cheap polyester batting. I don't want them too puffy but I want them to be warm. I think something like 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick faced polyester insulation in between the outer shell and lining may work. Something that can compress easily so if it interferes with the crank arm turning it will just compress without creating much friction. I'll post a picture as soon as I have something to look at.

    Meanwhile, I think I am going to have to get some different epoxy resin and hardner since the stuff I had I just used for another project and I don't think it will work for the shoe plate. It didn't seem to have the right consistency to "wet" a piece of fiberglass clothe. It was too thick and bubbling. I will need some kind of epoxy resin that behaves more like casting resin than glue.

  6. #31
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    Here is my idea for making the fiberglass/epoxy sole plates.

    I have made these two impressions of the front of the sole in these pie tins filled with concrete. The molds don't look all that great but I don't need super high accuracy. I will have to do a little smoothing of the molds.

    What I am going to do is lay up the fiberglass and epoxy on the mold and then vacuum bag the mold using a cheap method to get the layup to take the curved form of the sole. This will also make the plate have a more uniform density and be more uniform that what I could do myself.

    The vacuum pump will be made from and old bike pump or small car air compressor.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #32
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    Interesting project! Have you considered phenolic spacers for the cleat/foot barrier? Phenolic plastics are often used as heat barriers between engine parts. I think they can reduce conductive heat transfer to a minimum, and would likely be more durable and easier to acquire than aerogel.
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  8. #33
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    Good idea,

    If an aerogel sample proves too difficult or costly I will look at some phenolic resin. However, I know that I can obtain at least an aerogel insole for the inside of the shoe. I am almost tempted to think that what I am doing is overkill. I think the overboot will keep my foot warm enough for the conditions that I normally ride in.

    However, come to think of it. The plate spacer needs to be a softer kind of material so that it will create a seal to keep out any cold air or water from entering the bottom of the sole. And ideally it should not be too thick so that it won't absorb too much energy from pedaling. All of the phenolic composites that I have seen are rigid types of plastic. I wonder if a linen/phenolic plate would be even more stiff than the fiberglass/epoxy. Maybe, but I have decided that the project must be buildable from easy to obtain parts and materials. The fiberglass epoxy should be just about the easiest and cheapest low K material plate that I can think of.
    Last edited by Hezz; 12-09-08 at 05:18 PM.

  9. #34
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    I was mixing some epoxy for another project and I thought that I would try to make some quick gravity layups from the cement molds of my cycling shoes. I worked really fast because I had already mixed up the epoxy so the work was a little bit sloppy. I was not convinced that this epoxy would work. It is a very slow setting kind of general purpose epoxy that takes 24 hours to fully cure.

    But it has also allowed me more time to kind of message these things into shape. I first started by cutting a ziplock bag so I had a single layer of plastic. I was out of plastic food wrap so I used this. I then layed the plastic sheet on the mold and sprayed it with PAM as a release agent.

    Then I poured some of the resin in the mold and quickly cut out three layers of fiberglass cloth to shape. Using a plastic knife I worked the resin into the three layers of fiberglass cloth and tried to get as much of the resin out of the mold as I could. I got one of the plate layups somewhat misaligned but I will be able to trim it later.

    In retrospect I could have taken more time since the epoxy was still viscous after 1 hour. I ended up with things looking like this.

    After curing overnight ( about 9 hours) the plates were firm enough to be removed from the mold and the plastic peeled right off. The plates were still soft enough to trim them with a pair of good strong scissors. I then taped them to the shoes in hopes that they will retain the proper curve as they continue to harden. Hopefully they will get hard enough to be useful.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Hezz; 12-24-08 at 12:05 PM.

  10. #35
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    Thread resurrection:

    After a couple of years of getting sidetracked on this winter shoe approach I thought I might resurrect this thread and continue on this line. The first overshoes that I tried to make did not turn out well because I did not allow enough material for seam allowances. After getting one shoe cover half built I could see that it was not going to fit properly so I gave up on that build. Since then I have moved to a smaller place and had to get rid of so much stuff that I think the shoes are the only thing that I have left around. I hope that I have the fiberglass/epoxy plates in the tool box.

    For the minimal amount of winter riding that I have done during the last couple of years I have just used platform pedals with some Hi Tec insulated hikers. That combination works pretty well for short and medium length rides. But it might be fun to try and see if the approach outlined in this thread would work for SPD clipless pedals for longer duration and more efficient winter pedaling.

  11. #36
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    Wanted to bump this thread again. I started to put together some ideas last year on continuing this project but since it was really low on the priority list I didn't end up doing anything with it.

    Perhaps it is time to try something again. I'm posting here to get this high enough on the list to find it more easily.

    Hezz

  12. #37
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    I know you said you wanted something light and keep your feet warm but have you thought about using the insole from like a mtb clipless shoe and use that in your favorite pair of winter boots? I have done this on a casual pair of shoes and they work just fine. I thought about building a pair of clipless winter boots but my Answer Kashmir are keeping my toes warm enough for my 8mi commute in this MN winter.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbs z31 View Post
    I know you said you wanted something light and keep your feet warm but have you thought about using the insole from like a mtb clipless shoe and use that in your favorite pair of winter boots? I have done this on a casual pair of shoes and they work just fine. I thought about building a pair of clipless winter boots but my Answer Kashmir are keeping my toes warm enough for my 8mi commute in this MN winter.
    Yes, in fact I have done that in the past and it worked OK. But there were some problems. The problem was that I needed to modify the sole more extensively than I wanted to make things work really well. I came to the conclusion that first I needed a really expensive pair of mountaineering boots that cost over 300 dollars because less expensive boots didn't have a stiff enough sole. And second, the SPD clip needs a metal or hard surface to bare agains't which means placing a plate on the outside of the sole. By the time you do all this the tread isn't deep enough to accomodate the clip system so you can't walk on floors without scratching them up. Also, my idea is to get better performance for less money.

    I have some Answer Kashmirs and I like them but they have two problems. First, although very comfortable the sole is not stiff enough for me and causes pressure points which eventually cause my foot to get cold and numb. Second, they are not warm enough for more than 60 minute rides below 35 F. Without adding extra shoe covers which I don't like to do.

    I'm trying to make a system that is:

    Lighter
    Stiffer
    Warmer and
    Cheaper

    Wish me luck.

  14. #39
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    Wow, I'm really surprised you're so interested in pursuing this!
    Chaad--'95 DeKerf Team SL, '02 Lemond Buenos Aires, '05 Novara Buzz, '73 Schwinn Collegiate, '06 Mountain Cycle Rumble, '09 Dahon Mariner D7, '12 Mercier Nano, '12 Breezer Venturi

  15. #40
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    I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if this is redundant.

    After years of trying just about everything, I decided that my dive equipment offers the best wet insulation. I use neoprene dive booties, either alone for commuting, or over my cleated shoes with clipless pedals.

    For commuting I use 5-7mm dive booties, with a thick sole, but this stiff enough, so I cut an insole from HDPE sheet. For over the cycling shoes, I look for the thinnest sole possible in a 3-5mm bootie and cut out the bottom for my cleat. Depending on the pedal and cleat system, you might have to cut away enough for the pedal itself to clear.

    Either way, sizing is difficult, so it's a bit of trial and error. When using the booties alone, allow some room for a medium weight wool or synthetic sock (no cotton).

    Neoprene booties don't breathe or vent, so don't be surprised if you get home with wet dishpan feet, but they'll be warm which is what counts.
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  16. #41
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    +1 for dive boots

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
    I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if this is redundant.

    After years of trying just about everything, I decided that my dive equipment offers the best wet insulation. I use neoprene dive booties, either alone for commuting, or over my cleated shoes with clipless pedals.

    For commuting I use 5-7mm dive booties, with a thick sole, but this stiff enough, so I cut an insole from HDPE sheet. For over the cycling shoes, I look for the thinnest sole possible in a 3-5mm bootie and cut out the bottom for my cleat. Depending on the pedal and cleat system, you might have to cut away enough for the pedal itself to clear.

    Either way, sizing is difficult, so it's a bit of trial and error. When using the booties alone, allow some room for a medium weight wool or synthetic sock (no cotton).

    Neoprene booties don't breathe or vent, so don't be surprised if you get home with wet dishpan feet, but they'll be warm which is what counts.
    This sounds like a good system for wet weather or for commuting were you may have to ride in any and all conditions. I don't usually ride in cold wet weather and I've found through experience that on the type of cold weather rides that I do I would rather have a breathable approach for below freezing conditions. I want something really light, stiff, cheap and breathable.

    Because my feet are on the larger end of the spectrum I have found it difficult to do something like what you describe. I'm certain I would have a hard time finding dive boots that would go over my road shoes. But that's something to think about in the future. the primary problem that I see with dive boots for colder temperatures is a lack of insulation underneath the cycling shoe sole. This is were the main problem is for me. Also, I want something that's easy to put on and take off.

    I think that I have come up with a system for SPD clipless pedals that might be really warm and cheap to make.
    Last edited by Hezz; 12-15-12 at 02:58 PM.

  18. #43
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    Update,

    I've been doing a little concept modeling and I have come up with a very simple idea for a hopefully warmer foot solution. It is nothing really all that technically sophisticated. And I think that I can make it dirt cheap if I want. Really it's just a piece of thick light closed cell foam with a recess cut out for the SPD clipless pedal.

    The upper can be leather or Cordura or any light wind and water resistant material. I'm planning on using a dual layer polyester fleece lining since I have some surplus material around. I want it kind of loose fitting to trap lots of air and the thick sole will make it possible to walk around a little bit with SPD clips on road shoes.

    Hopefully the thick sole will keep the sole of the cycling shoe warm and covering the SPD pedal to a large degree may help keep it a little warmer.
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    Last edited by Hezz; 12-17-12 at 09:56 PM.

  19. #44
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    The BEST thing I ever found was a pair of Gore City Overshoes (shoe covers). They completely block the wind. I can now ride in my tennis shoes with a thin pair of wool socks down to about 10 degrees F, colder than that I add another layer of socks. I don't care what all the people say about vapor barriers and all the other stuff, the single most important thing I have found is to keep the wind off your skin. Block the wind, and you would be amazed at how much warmer you stay. Without the covers, with the same shoes and socks, mid-30s were the limit for me. The covers easily added another 20 degrees to my riding temperature range.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsflock View Post
    The BEST thing I ever found was a pair of Gore City Overshoes (shoe covers). They completely block the wind. I can now ride in my tennis shoes with a thin pair of wool socks down to about 10 degrees F, colder than that I add another layer of socks. I don't care what all the people say about vapor barriers and all the other stuff, the single most important thing I have found is to keep the wind off your skin. Block the wind, and you would be amazed at how much warmer you stay. Without the covers, with the same shoes and socks, mid-30s were the limit for me. The covers easily added another 20 degrees to my riding temperature range.
    A few years back I was close to lose my toes with totally windproof cross-country boots at 35F. So adding a windproof layer is certainly one of the first step to take when dealing with cold weather. In fact, i start to deal with the wind problem around 60F and below so necessarily at 30F it's already taken care of.
    When the temperature keep going down it happens to be not enough. Riding in cold weather suppose many problems which requires multiple solutions depending on your weather conditions, how you handle cold etc...
    Last edited by erig007; 12-18-12 at 03:06 PM.

  21. #46
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    How about studded sole neos, over your boots,

    Oh this thread is about Road shoes..

    When I get out on the studded tires, the sidewalks are hard to walk on,
    so I'd want some grip when I put my Foot down..

    Before Spud Pedals, Cross shoes had spikes behind, the cleat, now they are on the toes,

    I see no reason why 4 studs in those locations, could not be screwed in, to have black ice traction.

    like short Track running spikes.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
    How about studded sole neos, over your boots,

    Oh this thread is about Road shoes..

    When I get out on the studded tires, the sidewalks are hard to walk on,
    so I'd want some grip when I put my Foot down..

    Before Spud Pedals, Cross shoes had spikes behind, the cleat, now they are on the toes,

    I see no reason why 4 studs in those locations, could not be screwed in, to have black ice traction.

    like short Track running spikes.

    I have heard of using the Neos overboots before. They are kind of expensive for something that is just a shell and a sole. The other day, I saw a pair of the light weight Neos overboots but I can't now remember the model number. They were 80 dollars USD. I think that if you didn't want to make something custom you could get a really warm and light cycling system for a reasonable price with them.

    I think it was the Neos Villager that I saw. If you took a piece 1/2 inch closed cell packing foam and made a midsole to fit inside the Neos then get a regular road cycling shoe with a felt boot liner over it to go into the Neos. I think you would have a pretty light flexible and warm system that would be good and stiff for riding.

    Would work really well with large platform pedals. The lugs are not deep enough to adapt well for using an SPD cleat on them.

    I'm going to continue this thread. But it will move slowly. Right now I'm not riding much in winter anymore. And I will probably not ride all that much in winter until I built my velomobile. At that time I will need a really light warm overboot.

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