Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    47
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Pressure for winter studded tires

    I just changed over to my Nokian Hakkapeliitta W106 winter tires and I am dogging while ridding into the office. The max recommended pressure on these puppies is 65 psi. At that pressure and with the knobs and studs my 1:20 21-mile ride now takes me 1:45. Last year I think I progressively increased tire pressure until I was running at 80-85 psi. The tires are mounted on almost new Mavic A719 rims. My question for the group is, what risks am I taking by exceeding the mfr's max pressure? Loss of bead? Sidewall blowout? Reduction of stud contact?

    Thanks in advance,

    Tom Moritz

  2. #2
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    5,096
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tmoritz View Post
    I just changed over to my Nokian Hakkapeliitta W106 winter tires and I am dogging while ridding into the office. The max recommended pressure on these puppies is 65 psi. At that pressure and with the knobs and studs my 1:20 21-mile ride now takes me 1:45. Last year I think I progressively increased tire pressure until I was running at 80-85 psi. The tires are mounted on almost new Mavic A719 rims. My question for the group is, what risks am I taking by exceeding the mfr's max pressure? Loss of bead? Sidewall blowout? Reduction of stud contact?

    Thanks in advance,

    Tom Moritz
    Yes to all and you forgot rim-wall failure, though 85psi might not be too high(you can check online). Also you'll probably get a really bumpy and ****ty ride.

    A winter commute is slower not because of studs but because of other reasons like increased effort to stay warm and cold air density which will dwarf any resistance the studs give you. Rolling resistance is about 3-5% of the resistance a cyclist faces... so look elsewhere for causes and keep the tire in shape.

  3. #3
    Senior Member bbaker22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    188
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Dunno about the risks, but my W106's beat the crap outta me at 65psi... I can't imagine running them at 80psi, unless it were a skating rink recently serviced by a zamboni.

    baker

  4. #4
    Formerly Known as Newbie Juha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    5,850
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Rolling resistance is about 3-5% of the resistance a cyclist faces... so look elsewhere for causes and keep the tire in shape.
    This may be true for summer riding, and there maybe some truth if riding on the ice rink served by the zamboni mentioned above. But if there's any layer of snow your riding in, rolling resistance is way, way higher. Though I suppose technically it's not rolling resistance at that point, but cutting through the snow, and so just an added component to air resistance...

    +1 on not wanting to imagine higher pressure for W106s. I think I run them at max 65psi too.

    --J
    To err is human. To moo is bovine.

    Who is this General Failure anyway, and why is he reading my drive?


    Become a Registered Member in Bike Forums
    Community guidelines

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Bradford Massachusetts
    My Bikes
    C'Dale - R1000, XR7, Rize3, F600 and a couple others...
    Posts
    62
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tmoritz View Post
    I just changed over to my Nokian Hakkapeliitta W106 winter tires and I am dogging while ridding into the office. The max recommended pressure on these puppies is 65 psi. At that pressure and with the knobs and studs my 1:20 21-mile ride now takes me 1:45. Last year I think I progressively increased tire pressure until I was running at 80-85 psi. The tires are mounted on almost new Mavic A719 rims. My question for the group is, what risks am I taking by exceeding the mfr's max pressure? Loss of bead? Sidewall blowout? Reduction of stud contact?

    Thanks in advance,

    Tom Moritz
    I run mine ( W106 ) at about 75 - 80 PSI and have had great results, this was a full winter last year, still waiting to put them on this year, getting close... I too felt that 65 was way too low.

  6. #6
    tsl
    tsl is offline
    Plays in traffic tsl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    My Bikes
    1996 Litespeed Classic, 2006 Trek Portland, 2013 Ribble Winter/Audax
    Posts
    6,553
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I adjust my W106s to the conditions.

    Using Jan Heine's articles (here and here) as a baseline, then test riding, based on my bike and my weight and I've found my W106s do best at 55F/60R in the dry.

    I reduce pressure to as low as 25F/30R in really bad conditions. The increased grip is amazing, particularly in tracking. As Juha says, in really bad conditions it's not the tire causing the most rolling resistance, it's the snow and slush, so any increase in tire rolling resistance is a non-issue. The increased grip, however, is plainly evident in ruts--both hard frozen ones and packed ruts through soft snow. The bike settles down and doesn't skip side-to-side nearly as much--especially the front end.

    When conditions improve, I pump 'em back up.
    My two favorite things in life are libraries and bicycles. They both move people forward without wasting anything.
    The perfect day: Riding a bike to the library.—Peter Golkin


    Lucky for me, I work at a library and bike to work.

  7. #7
    on by skijor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Wisconsin
    My Bikes
    Waterford RS-33, Salsa Vaya, Bacchetta Giro 20 ATT
    Posts
    880
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I religiously run my W106's at 65 psi. Yes the rolling resistance is very noticeable compared to the regular commuter tires. And I disagree with electrik, the studs do play a big part in that rolling resistance. Greater pressure = smaller footprint and more wear on the studs though the increase in risk from running at 80-85 psi vesus 65 psi would be negligible. If anything, you'd have more stud contact at higher pressure since the studs are essentially in the center.

  8. #8
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    5,096
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by skijor View Post
    I religiously run my W106's at 65 psi. Yes the rolling resistance is very noticeable compared to the regular commuter tires. And I disagree with electrik, the studs do play a big part in that rolling resistance. Greater pressure = smaller footprint and more wear on the studs though the increase in risk from running at 80-85 psi vesus 65 psi would be negligible. If anything, you'd have more stud contact at higher pressure since the studs are essentially in the center.
    Well, how much percentage wise does a "big part" mean? To be honest, I don't see a real need to exceed the manufacturers max psi recommendations. If you over-inflate the tire you will have less tread contact, a harsher ride and it may not even lower the rolling resistance over-all due to all the bumping around over bits of snow and ice. I don't know this w016 tire but unless the studs are exactly in the centre of the tire then the more you inflate it the less the studs will contact the ground. I doubt one would need more than 65psi to get those studs off the pavement unless you're a husky fellow.

    As a side note, i think a lot of the perceived rolling resistance is just the negative effect of the heavier tire on acceleration, something which can slow you down over-all a lot more if you're stopping and starting in traffic.

  9. #9
    on by skijor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Wisconsin
    My Bikes
    Waterford RS-33, Salsa Vaya, Bacchetta Giro 20 ATT
    Posts
    880
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by electrik View Post
    Well, how much percentage wise does a "big part" mean? To be honest, I don't see a real need to exceed the manufacturers max psi recommendations. If you over-inflate the tire you will have less tread contact, a harsher ride and it may not even lower the rolling resistance over-all due to all the bumping around over bits of snow and ice. I don't know this w016 tire but unless the studs are exactly in the centre of the tire then the more you inflate it the less the studs will contact the ground. I doubt one would need more than 65psi to get those studs off the pavement unless you're a husky fellow.

    As a side note, i think a lot of the perceived rolling resistance is just the negative effect of the heavier tire on acceleration, something which can slow you down over-all a lot more if you're stopping and starting in traffic.
    I agree with "no need to exceed psi recommendations". Damn new format!....where's the effing bold and italics buttons?!?! Hell, where are ANY of the buttons? Bring back the old format!

    As you can see, the W106's studs are slightly offset from center. And to reduce their contact with the ground via increased pressure would be nigh impossible. The W106's are almost the same size as a standard MTB tire. And a standard MTB tire does have noticeably less rolling resistance all else being equal.
    W106 studs.jpg

  10. #10
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    5,096
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by skijor View Post
    As you can see, the W106's studs are slightly offset from center. And to reduce their contact with the ground via increased pressure would be nigh impossible. The W106's are almost the same size as a standard MTB tire. And a standard MTB tire does have noticeably less rolling resistance all else being equal.
    Fair enough, if one can't eliminate stud to ground contact then there isn't much point to try and over-inflate. There isn't much point to over-inflating because the squirming stud is where the above "regular/typical knobby" rolling resistance comes into play...

    I doubt it would be anywhere near as high as the rolling resistance from this tire though!
    Attachment 126633

    As long as the rider inflates the tire enough to eliminate excessive side-wall flexing(based on their weight and rim width) I doubt there are further concerns/benefits.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Fishers Indiana
    My Bikes
    Longbikes Slipstream
    Posts
    316
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I tried a few weeks at 80 psi last winter, and eventually the sidewall bulged out so I dropped back to 65. I wish they were stronger, as I'd like to be close to 90psi for most of my winter riding, which is merely cold, and rarely snow, more likely to have ice on roads here than snow, so I don't kneed the knobs so much, just the studs.
    Longbikes Slipstream

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    47
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, I've gone ahead and pumped my Hakkapeliittas up to 85 psi and my transit time has dropped by 10 minutes. Still 15 minutes longer than when riding on my summer slicks. The ride is a bit squirllier but not much rougher. Stud noise is a little bit less. We'll see if I make it through the winter without blowing a sidewall. I'm not too worried about my rims. The Mavic A719 are about as tough as they come.

    Thanks to all for their response. I guess we just have to grit our teeth and power through it.

  13. #13
    Single-serving poster electrik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    5,096
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

  14. #14
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    25 miles northwest of Boston
    My Bikes
    Bottecchia Sprint
    Posts
    12,358
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    after riding yesterday my opinion is that if the OP is pumping the tires to their MAX pressure then he doesn't need studded snow tires in that width and those conditions don't warrant it. he would be better off with a narrower road tire (maybe studded). I mean if the roads are clear enough for max pressure on a wide studded tire then maybe he should be running a thinner tire. and of the roads are clear of snow then he should be using a regular road tire. (although he didn't write what size the tires were: 26" 700c?)
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    47
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
    after riding yesterday my opinion is that if the OP is pumping the tires to their MAX pressure then he doesn't need studded snow tires in that width and those conditions don't warrant it. he would be better off with a narrower road tire (maybe studded). I mean if the roads are clear enough for max pressure on a wide studded tire then maybe he should be running a thinner tire. and of the roads are clear of snow then he should be using a regular road tire. (although he didn't write what size the tires were: 26" 700c?)
    I ride 700c tires. I have a 21 mile commute to the office and even though I watch the weather forecasts very closely I've been caught in snows that arrived earlier than predicted several times in the past four years. I over pressurize my tires for a majority of my commutes but reduce pressure when the conditions get worse. I also often encounter ice on the bike paths in the morning when the temps the day before were above freezing. The worst patch is at the bottom of a hill where the path makes a sweeping right turn. I still remember the first time I encountered this ice patch! I'm glad I landed in the deep grass beside the trail.

    My original question was asking about risks I was taking by over pressurizing my tires. I know I will be taking an efficiency hit with these tires. I've decided to take the risk of blowing a tire off the rim or worse causing a rim failure. I find the tires run slightly less resistance at 85 psi enough when ridden 40+ miles in a day to make it worth it. Also, on the W106's the studs are set off-center so the noise is less when riding straight so I probably have less stud wear. Again, I bleed off some pressure when the conditions warrant.

    Thanks for all the input. I'll let you know if I survive the winter.

    Regards,

    Tom Moritz

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Wiltshire, UK
    My Bikes
    Genesis Equlibrium, Salsa Vaya, Claud Butler Urban 100
    Posts
    169
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tmoritz View Post
    My original question was asking about risks I was taking by over pressurizing my tires. I know I will be taking an efficiency hit with these tires. I've decided to take the risk of blowing a tire off the rim or worse causing a rim failure. I find the tires run slightly less resistance at 85 psi enough when ridden 40+ miles in a day to make it worth it. Also, on the W106's the studs are set off-center so the noise is less when riding straight so I probably have less stud wear. Again, I bleed off some pressure when the conditions warrant.
    I don't think there is any risk of rim failure. The Schwalbe Marathon Winter in 700c/35 is rated to 85psi.

    You may be risking premature tyre failure, but it sounds like that is an acceptable risk for you to increase your ride time.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •