Teach me how to ride in snow
02-27-15, 08:49 PM
#76
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...
Still pondering @Daniel4's admonition to keep the mouth open, though: is it to keep from clenching other muscles?
Still pondering @Daniel4's admonition to keep the mouth open, though: is it to keep from clenching other muscles?
02-28-15, 02:08 PM
#77
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I've been experimenting with my M&Gs, and have dropped them from 30/40 to 25/30 this winter. Traction and comfort have improved, and I still don't seem to be in any danger of pinch flatting. 
Still pondering @Daniel4's admonition to keep the mouth open, though: is it to keep from clenching other muscles?
Still pondering @Daniel4's admonition to keep the mouth open, though: is it to keep from clenching other muscles?
EDIT: Sorry Daniel4, I didn't see your reply there. Isn't it tough breathing around a mouthguard? Good idea though. I'm personally missing a front tooth due to a cycling misadventure.
Last edited by Motolegs; 02-28-15 at 02:13 PM.
02-28-15, 05:13 PM
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One of my MTB's has 26x2.00 studded tires mounted on 36mm wide rims, I have gone as low as 10 PSI on the front tire on snow covered roads and trails. I can feel the rim hitting the pavement when I lean forward on my handlebars but I never experienced any pinch flats. The benefits of such low pressure was amazing traction and control on slick roads but it's also a very slow sluggish ride and feels like riding through molasses.
03-04-15, 12:25 AM
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There seems to be two camps chiming in: >32mm tires up in "ski and snowmobile weather everyday" hardpacked whitepath land; <32mm down in multi-compound brown guck covered roads. I'm in Syracuse and unless I want to be biking at or slower than a jogger's pace while having the front wheel washing out any time there's more than three inches, I refuse to have a fatter than 28mm tire on the front. If I had nice hole-less, crackless pavement under the skydookie I'd be using 23mm tires front and back. The only time that I'd intentionally ride a bike with 40-60mm tires on a common NE winter day is if that ride also involved irresponsible amounts of drug use and going no faster than 8mph ever was the plan. <8mph + stop signs and red lights in traffic in 15-35F sounds absolutely too awful to do sober for more than ten minutes and too dangerous to do in any non-sober state.
In my experience, studs are of benefit o n l y on ice. Knobs are of benefit only in mud and roots. Thin slick tires only get walked if 1) I make the decision to go to a footified footpath 2) on the two or three days that actually have ice on the pavement while the sun is up or 3) during the three days that the snow is up to the bb because all of the plows are focused on 90 and/or 81 during/after the one or two massive storms. Condition 2 would benefit from studs, tire chains or if you're feeling industrious enough, guitar string diagonally/diamondally wrapped around the wheels (disc brake only). Conditions 1 and 3 would benefit from using a plain ol' designed-for-HARD-packed-dirt MTB with "winter" tires only *slightly better than a track bike. In these situations a full-on fatbike would be the only non-Rokon, non-TW two-wheeled solution I'd consider. Really, situation 1 is dumb without weed and/or joblessness and sitch 3 often renders fatbikes as useful as any other bicycle of any design and truly calls for a jeep (or other high-ground-clearance 4-wheeler), a bus/train pass or just staying the heck home.
Someone mentioned mtb climbing technique, and essentially described being in an aero-tuck with one's center of gravity held as low as possible. I can't agree more with this. Although I'll add that I'm usually also hovering just over my saddle, which is an inch lower than summer height for bump-room, and only employing weight-on-the-saddle mtb technique on high-grade looooose climbs. Hovering for bumps yields the additional benefit of allowing the bike to fishtail in semi-isolation whilst your body maintains a steady forward momentum which the bike can be pulled back into after a slight slide. With exception to the nice clear blue skies and grey road days where I can keep upright and have my hands on the tops, most of my rides between Jan and April are dominated by me being in the drops and doing a lot of peeking ahead of me as if I were tting. Those little fishtails and very rare washouts are cake when you're hunkered down low and only loosly gripping the drops with your fingertips (quite a bit of lower-back muscle development is essential if you're doing this for over twenty minutes). If you didn't when you were a kid, you really should find some time to play in an empty parking lot with getting up to speed, standing up tall on the pedals and then locking up the back wheel and whipping it around to either side, taking it so far as to approach a level of stylish finesse. It will make accidental fishtails cake to recover from.
In my experience, studs are of benefit o n l y on ice. Knobs are of benefit only in mud and roots. Thin slick tires only get walked if 1) I make the decision to go to a footified footpath 2) on the two or three days that actually have ice on the pavement while the sun is up or 3) during the three days that the snow is up to the bb because all of the plows are focused on 90 and/or 81 during/after the one or two massive storms. Condition 2 would benefit from studs, tire chains or if you're feeling industrious enough, guitar string diagonally/diamondally wrapped around the wheels (disc brake only). Conditions 1 and 3 would benefit from using a plain ol' designed-for-HARD-packed-dirt MTB with "winter" tires only *slightly better than a track bike. In these situations a full-on fatbike would be the only non-Rokon, non-TW two-wheeled solution I'd consider. Really, situation 1 is dumb without weed and/or joblessness and sitch 3 often renders fatbikes as useful as any other bicycle of any design and truly calls for a jeep (or other high-ground-clearance 4-wheeler), a bus/train pass or just staying the heck home.
Someone mentioned mtb climbing technique, and essentially described being in an aero-tuck with one's center of gravity held as low as possible. I can't agree more with this. Although I'll add that I'm usually also hovering just over my saddle, which is an inch lower than summer height for bump-room, and only employing weight-on-the-saddle mtb technique on high-grade looooose climbs. Hovering for bumps yields the additional benefit of allowing the bike to fishtail in semi-isolation whilst your body maintains a steady forward momentum which the bike can be pulled back into after a slight slide. With exception to the nice clear blue skies and grey road days where I can keep upright and have my hands on the tops, most of my rides between Jan and April are dominated by me being in the drops and doing a lot of peeking ahead of me as if I were tting. Those little fishtails and very rare washouts are cake when you're hunkered down low and only loosly gripping the drops with your fingertips (quite a bit of lower-back muscle development is essential if you're doing this for over twenty minutes). If you didn't when you were a kid, you really should find some time to play in an empty parking lot with getting up to speed, standing up tall on the pedals and then locking up the back wheel and whipping it around to either side, taking it so far as to approach a level of stylish finesse. It will make accidental fishtails cake to recover from.
Last edited by MattoftheRocks; 03-04-15 at 01:28 AM.
03-04-15, 10:50 AM
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I'm in Syracuse and unless I want to be biking at or slower than a jogger's pace while having the front wheel washing out any time there's more than three inches, I refuse to have a fatter than 28mm tire on the front. If I had nice hole-less, crackless pavement under the skydookie I'd be using 23mm tires front and back.
03-04-15, 11:27 AM
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I've only been forced to walk with <30mm tires due to depth once in the last five years (probably would have been far more were I up in buffalo/oswego/h2o), and it wasn't even due to the old ice on snow on ice on slush road cake- I was on my main single speed tourer and it was geared fine for 98% of the winter, but way too high for the verrry wet seven inches that had fallen while I was at work ~early Feb last year. The morning after, it was all still there but with slightly more defined ruts. My "state of emergency" bike was geared down to 39-18 and it cut right through that same wet loaf with 23mm gatorskins. Until I got hit this past May, I'd ridden nearly every day for the last eight years.
03-04-15, 11:50 AM
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As with most things related to bicycle handling, mountain biking would teach you how to handle this problem before the end of your first day. That said, your main problem is traction. As others have said studs would be best. Knobbed tires would also work but not quite as well.
You want to start in a low gear. How low will depend on the surface but, generally, the lower the better. You may also want to lower your saddle when you first start learning. This will allow you to start from the saddle. You have more weight on the rear wheel which will increase the traction so you get a better push-off and a bit more momentum.
Push off from a stop hard enough to get you rolling but not so hard that you spin the tire. It's a delicate balance. If the tire spins, you may want to go up a gear but be aware that higher gears may not give you enough speed intitially to get your balance once going.
You also want to unload the front wheel as much as possible. You don't want to do a wheelie but you want the front wheel unweighted. The front wheel will want to dig into the snow and that will slow you down or stop you.
You will want to turn the front wheel to gain balance...it's a natural reaction...but you want to keep any front wheel movement to as small as possible. The straighter you can start, the quicker you'll find balance.
You are going to have problems fitting knobs and/or studs to that particular bike if you keep the fenders. Knobbies have a higher profile and it doesn't look like you have much space, especially under the fork. You will have to be creative to make them fit.
Finally, tire width. I know lots of people say that narrow tires work better but I've never found that to be the case. A narrow tire will dig down into the snow but that's a problem. Your contact patch is smaller and thus your traction is less. Any little correction you make is magnified. Also, when you "dig down into the snow", you have to push all that snow out of the way. It's a lot more work. A really wide tire will float over the snow rather than plow through it. That's the reason that fat bikes work so well in the snow. A 3" to 5" tire doesn't try to find the bottom of the snow pile and floats right over it.
Finally, all what I said above is more difficult to explain than actually do.
You want to start in a low gear. How low will depend on the surface but, generally, the lower the better. You may also want to lower your saddle when you first start learning. This will allow you to start from the saddle. You have more weight on the rear wheel which will increase the traction so you get a better push-off and a bit more momentum.
Push off from a stop hard enough to get you rolling but not so hard that you spin the tire. It's a delicate balance. If the tire spins, you may want to go up a gear but be aware that higher gears may not give you enough speed intitially to get your balance once going.
You also want to unload the front wheel as much as possible. You don't want to do a wheelie but you want the front wheel unweighted. The front wheel will want to dig into the snow and that will slow you down or stop you.
You will want to turn the front wheel to gain balance...it's a natural reaction...but you want to keep any front wheel movement to as small as possible. The straighter you can start, the quicker you'll find balance.
You are going to have problems fitting knobs and/or studs to that particular bike if you keep the fenders. Knobbies have a higher profile and it doesn't look like you have much space, especially under the fork. You will have to be creative to make them fit.
Finally, tire width. I know lots of people say that narrow tires work better but I've never found that to be the case. A narrow tire will dig down into the snow but that's a problem. Your contact patch is smaller and thus your traction is less. Any little correction you make is magnified. Also, when you "dig down into the snow", you have to push all that snow out of the way. It's a lot more work. A really wide tire will float over the snow rather than plow through it. That's the reason that fat bikes work so well in the snow. A 3" to 5" tire doesn't try to find the bottom of the snow pile and floats right over it.
Finally, all what I said above is more difficult to explain than actually do.
03-04-15, 12:05 PM
#83
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Studs are the only way to get through those pics you posted. You will be amazed by how much traction they give it is just about like riding on pavement. They do slow you down a lot however.
03-04-15, 02:24 PM
#84
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You guys are great! I have learned a lot. Not only do studs help with ice, nothing else will. Same with knobs for snow (and mud).
It seems that there is no consensus about drop bar road vs flat bar MTB, but since I don't even own an MTB, it's time.
I live in New York, not the great white north, so I didn't expect to need a winter bike. The amount of time the surfaces to be covered covered was short, and the amount of time I expected to be willing to ride was short. But both turned out to be wrong. We've had a lot of ground cover, and since I prefer the bike path to the streets, and since the parks department has forgotten about the northern end of the path, the amount of time the surface has been covered has been quite long. Also, I've learned to dress for the weather, so my willingness -- even eagerness -- to ride in these conditions has/have increased.
It seems that there is no consensus about drop bar road vs flat bar MTB, but since I don't even own an MTB, it's time.
I live in New York, not the great white north, so I didn't expect to need a winter bike. The amount of time the surfaces to be covered covered was short, and the amount of time I expected to be willing to ride was short. But both turned out to be wrong. We've had a lot of ground cover, and since I prefer the bike path to the streets, and since the parks department has forgotten about the northern end of the path, the amount of time the surface has been covered has been quite long. Also, I've learned to dress for the weather, so my willingness -- even eagerness -- to ride in these conditions has/have increased.
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03-04-15, 02:53 PM
#85
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News flash! I just got email from the city:
Do I believe them? Not until I see it, but I won't be riding my bike tomorrow. Maybe I'll check it out Friday.
**This is an auto-generated system message. Please do not reply to this message.**Service Request #: C1-1-1073101152
Date Submitted: 02/27/15 5:10:36 PM
Request Type: Maintenance or Facility
Details: Snow or Ice
Your Service Request was closed.
The Department of Parks and Recreation has completed the requested work order and corrected the problem.
Done.
Date Submitted: 02/27/15 5:10:36 PM
Request Type: Maintenance or Facility
Details: Snow or Ice
Your Service Request was closed.
The Department of Parks and Recreation has completed the requested work order and corrected the problem.
Done.
Do I believe them? Not until I see it, but I won't be riding my bike tomorrow. Maybe I'll check it out Friday.
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03-04-15, 03:47 PM
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they salted and plowed the whole bikeway? or it was just warm enough and rained enough to do it for them?
03-04-15, 04:35 PM
#87
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I'll see if I can get information on my local bike groups on facebook.
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03-04-15, 05:26 PM
#88
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This is spot on! My winter / salt bike is an old MTB with 1.9-2.1" tires depending on the conditions. Shifting your weight to the rear plus low gear is the best way to get moving. I like the MTB because the flat bar seems to me to be easier to shift my weight where it's needed. I have never ridden in snow with drop bars so I don't know if it's just as easy with those. For snow get the most aggressive tires you have so they dig in, and IMHO wider is better.
You guys are great! I have learned a lot. Not only do studs help with ice, nothing else will. Same with knobs for snow (and mud).
It seems that there is no consensus about drop bar road vs flat bar MTB, but since I don't even own an MTB, it's time.
I live in New York, not the great white north, so I didn't expect to need a winter bike. The amount of time the surfaces to be covered covered was short, and the amount of time I expected to be willing to ride was short. But both turned out to be wrong. We've had a lot of ground cover, and since I prefer the bike path to the streets, and since the parks department has forgotten about the northern end of the path, the amount of time the surface has been covered has been quite long. Also, I've learned to dress for the weather, so my willingness -- even eagerness -- to ride in these conditions has/have increased.
It seems that there is no consensus about drop bar road vs flat bar MTB, but since I don't even own an MTB, it's time.
I live in New York, not the great white north, so I didn't expect to need a winter bike. The amount of time the surfaces to be covered covered was short, and the amount of time I expected to be willing to ride was short. But both turned out to be wrong. We've had a lot of ground cover, and since I prefer the bike path to the streets, and since the parks department has forgotten about the northern end of the path, the amount of time the surface has been covered has been quite long. Also, I've learned to dress for the weather, so my willingness -- even eagerness -- to ride in these conditions has/have increased.
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03-04-15, 07:18 PM
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My winter/salt bikes are old(isn) mountain bikes but one of the (for the sloppiest conditions with studs) is a Moots...'cause if it's worth doing, it's worth doing ridiculously
It's a fairly well kept secret that Denver's weather is goofy at best. Part of the reason that I hate studded tires is that they are useless most of the time here in Denver. I break the studs out maybe 5 or 6 times per year. Most of the time, a mountain bike with knobbies will handle the roads just fine. This week, the snow is falling but I expect to be on a road bike on dry pavement by Saturday...and it snowed 6" last night with another 18" on the ground from previous storms. The forecast is calling for 50°F by tomorrow afternoon.
It's a fairly well kept secret that Denver's weather is goofy at best. Part of the reason that I hate studded tires is that they are useless most of the time here in Denver. I break the studs out maybe 5 or 6 times per year. Most of the time, a mountain bike with knobbies will handle the roads just fine. This week, the snow is falling but I expect to be on a road bike on dry pavement by Saturday...and it snowed 6" last night with another 18" on the ground from previous storms. The forecast is calling for 50°F by tomorrow afternoon.
03-05-15, 10:27 AM
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looks like you guys (NYC) are in a bit of a snowbelt today! good luck with that
03-05-15, 11:09 AM
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I've only been forced to walk with <30mm tires due to depth once in the last five years (probably would have been far more were I up in buffalo/oswego/h2o), and it wasn't even due to the old ice on snow on ice on slush road cake- I was on my main single speed tourer and it was geared fine for 98% of the winter, but way too high for the verrry wet seven inches that had fallen while I was at work ~early Feb last year. The morning after, it was all still there but with slightly more defined ruts. My "state of emergency" bike was geared down to 39-18 and it cut right through that same wet loaf with 23mm gatorskins. Until I got hit this past May, I'd ridden nearly every day for the last eight years.
03-05-15, 11:15 AM
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You guys are great! I have learned a lot. Not only do studs help with ice, nothing else will. Same with knobs for snow (and mud)...
I live in New York, not the great white north, so I didn't expect to need a winter bike. The amount of time the surfaces to be covered covered was short, and the amount of time I expected to be willing to ride was short. But both turned out to be wrong. We've had a lot of ground cover, and since I prefer the bike path to the streets, and since the parks department has forgotten about the northern end of the path, the amount of time the surface has been covered has been quite long. Also, I've learned to dress for the weather, so my willingness -- even eagerness -- to ride in these conditions has/have increased.
I live in New York, not the great white north, so I didn't expect to need a winter bike. The amount of time the surfaces to be covered covered was short, and the amount of time I expected to be willing to ride was short. But both turned out to be wrong. We've had a lot of ground cover, and since I prefer the bike path to the streets, and since the parks department has forgotten about the northern end of the path, the amount of time the surface has been covered has been quite long. Also, I've learned to dress for the weather, so my willingness -- even eagerness -- to ride in these conditions has/have increased.
…This winter I have ridden my CF bike up to January 1, and it looks like it may be relatively mild (for precipitation), with increased dry road days….
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-05-15 at 11:38 AM.
03-05-15, 11:39 AM
#93
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It's about the best material there is to resist chloride ions
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09-21-15, 08:14 PM
#94
aka Tom Reingold
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I'm building a new bike and am thinking about studded tires. @cyccommute it might make the most sense to have a MTB, but it's not happening this year. The new bike will have 700c tires and north road bars. I think there is room for wide-ish tires plus fenders. Are fenders a good idea? I'm leaning towards them, as I like them in general.
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New York City and High Falls, NY
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
09-22-15, 08:32 AM
#95
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I'm building a new bike and am thinking about studded tires. @cyccommute it might make the most sense to have a MTB, but it's not happening this year. The new bike will have 700c tires and north road bars. I think there is room for wide-ish tires plus fenders. Are fenders a good idea? I'm leaning towards them, as I like them in general.
09-22-15, 08:40 AM
#96
aka Tom Reingold
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The reason it's a question is that mud or snow is known to jam between wheel and fender. Maybe it's more of a concern with mud on trails, which I won't be riding this winter. Is there ever a time when fenders are a liability on a winter commuting bike?
This is the bike I commute on most frequently. I appreciate my fenders very much.
The bike I'm building is a 1974 Raleigh International. It also has a lot of clearance for wheels and tires. It should be lighter than this Bianchi. I figure having upright handlebars will be good for different conditions such as slippery surfaces.
This is the bike I commute on most frequently. I appreciate my fenders very much.
The bike I'm building is a 1974 Raleigh International. It also has a lot of clearance for wheels and tires. It should be lighter than this Bianchi. I figure having upright handlebars will be good for different conditions such as slippery surfaces.
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
09-22-15, 11:48 AM
#97
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dunno bout you for sure but I think you'll be ok. the winter I rode thru ('09) I stored by bike inside on a loading dock so it had a chance to thaw from 13 miles of snowy rides. I suppose if I rode more than that and left the bike outside in freezing temps before more miles home - there might have been an issue. this is the bike and fenders I used w no trouble. it's got pretty good clearance but not like a MTB
09-22-15, 11:59 AM
#98
meh
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I would say yes to the full fenders. Many people I know ride full fenders with studded tires in the winter (I typically ride MTBs with MTB fenders). The best thing is to adjust the fenders to give maximum clearence for the tires. This will minimize snow build up from interfering with the tires.
Here is a day when I got caught out on my summer commuter in the snow. Summer tires (T-Serv), no issues with snow build up in fenders.
(I needed to stop and write my name in the snow, so I took a picture of my bike too)
09-22-15, 12:29 PM
#99
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around here there's no need to explain why you took a picture of your bike, you're safe here
09-22-15, 01:05 PM
#100
aka Tom Reingold
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Good, I'm glad fenders are a good choice.
@rumrunn6, you don't ride in the winter any more?
@rumrunn6, you don't ride in the winter any more?
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.