Originally Posted by
zze86
For fully loaded touring, it seems like 40 spokes used to be the standard. The manufacturers seemed to have moved away from 40 and onto max of 36 judging by the availability of commonly available hubs.
For fuller loaded touring (say 250lbs rider and cargo), is it still recommended to get 40+ spokes or has the tech improvement in wheels negated that?
I have a couple pairs of 32h Ultegra hubs just sitting in storage, can a competent touring wheel be made with that spoke count?
It all depends
Firstly it depends on the rim you use. The best modern touring rims are a combination of a V-shape and double walled box section inner profile meaning they have excellent stiffness and rigidity in both vertical and lateral axes. Stiffness in the vertical axis means that the rim deflects less under strain. This then spreads the slackening effect on more spokes so no single spoke experiences too much slackening at any given time (the slackening tightening cycle is what usually breaks spokes).
My choice of rim is the DT Swiss TK540 for the reason that in my opinion it's more durable and more consistent than Mavic rims I've built with and DT Swisses come out bullet straight when mavics commonly have some wobble to them.
Second issue is spokes. Different spokes have different strengths and weaknesses but without going too deep into spoke theory and since you've read the comments made by cyccocommute, DT Swiss Alpine III is the best touring spoke while spokes which have a uniform non butted thickness are the worst. The Alpine III puts strength where it is needed whilst giving flex and stretch where it is needed.
Spoke count is tricky. Modern components and materials are better than they were in the day of flexy steel rims etc where you actually needed a lot of spokes. Today we have stiff aluminum rims which resist the effect of rim deflection. This means we need less spokes for the same strength wheel. However you can have too many spokes as well. I'm paraphrasing a reply I got from a Velocity rep a few years back. What he said was that too many spoke holes compromise the lateral durability of the rim, meaning that you drill too many holes in the middle and the risk is that the rim will split in the middle since there's too little material to support tire pressure for example. So while a 28" wheel can support 40 spokes, for a 26" wheel that's starting to be bit much.
However honestly 36 spokes is plenty enough even for extreme touring with extreme weights. My wheels have lived through thousands of miles of 350lbs combined system weight where we rode everything from good roads to bad roads to supper bad gravel to actual single track mountain bike routes. Not a single broken spoke and the wheel has gone out of true once for 0.3mm.
But it all comes down to having good components which fit together properly and the build must be good. My Wife has a Trek 520 with stock wheels which also were 36 spoke but with straight gauge spokes and machine build. Even though I balanced the tensions and stress relieved the wheel before any touring she still lost a spoke and having trued them multiple times the rear wheel is at the point of no return since the nipples are such low quality that I've rounded quite a few of them off thus making further repairs and truing impossible. So good components are key.
Originally Posted by
seeker333
High spoke count rims and hubs have never been widely available. 40h and 48h rims are still produced by Velocity, and Shimano and a few boutique makers produce tandem hubs. A 36h rear wheel (32 or even 28 will suffice on front) is usually adequate for loaded touring provided the load is not too great, riding is restricted to pavement, or a bit of both. In my experience 36h is good for up to ~250 lbs total, 32h up to 225. If you expect to exceed 250 regularly you should consider tandem grade rear wheel (if you exceed 300 lbs you need custom wheels and frameset ).
Where do you pull these numbers? 350lbs can easily be supported by 36 spokes if the wheel is well made and in severely bad road conditions. And a Surly LHT (which is not a custom frame) can also easily manage such weights. When touring heavy what one needs is a sturdy frame and sturdy wheels, neither of which need to be custom. This of course according to my experience.
Expensive DT Alpine spokes are overkill and overrated for touring use.
Wheelsmith DB14 (made in the USA) are more than adequate for the purpose, and cost and weigh less than the equivalent DT Competition. I've never broken a WS DB14.
Wait what where's your logic in all this? 36 spoke wheel has a low max weight limit but stronger touring spokes are overkill? I don't get it.
The DB14's are generic double butted spoke like the DT Comp and good for most applications but the Alpine III is just simply a stronger spoke. It has more material in places where spokes commonly break whilst still having the smaller diameter mid butting.
Your biggest mechanical issue will be the narrow rear spacing of the 1983 bike, which will contribute significantly to dish and low NDS spoke tension. The beefiest spokes in the world won't help a bit if you can't tension them adequately due to the geometric limitations of the hub (and frame).
Hasn't that always been the issue with cassette type wheelsets? And even if that is the issue there are a few ways to remedy that to some extent. Asymmetric rims is one possibility and lacking those shifting dish 1mm towards the NDS already gives the NDS spokes significantly more tension without affecting handling at all. And using more spokes and stiffer rims reduces the stress a single spoke faces. I think he'll be golden if he gets a good build for his rear wheel.