Originally Posted by
RiceAWay
Apparently you have spent your time riding junk if you think for one second that any of the Japanese bikes could hold a candle to Pinarello, Basso or Colnago.
Hmm, I have owned a Pinarello Montello (SLX), a Basso (SLX, by D'Arienzo), a Cinelli-made Centurion (SL), a Cinelli Super Corsa (SLX), a Mondonico (SLX), a Simoncini (SLX), a Merckx Corsa Extra (SLX), a DeRosa Professional (SLX), a Tommaso (SLX), a carbon Merckx, and a carbon Cinelli.
Hmm, I have owned "junk" such as a Bridgestone Radac, Centurion Semi Pro, Lotus Classique, enough Centurion Ironman models to fill a garage, and such US "junk" as 2 Paramounts, 531 Treks, three Cannondales.
Just so you don't think I'm out of touch, I currently own a Pinarello Record, a Merckx Professional, a Cinelli Super Corsa, a Colnago Super, 2 Centurion Ironman models, a Centurion Comp TA, a (gasp! Taiwan) Raleigh Competiton, a modern US Wraith, 80's custom Fiorini, a Teledyne Titan, Raleigh International, and a couple of carbons.
I should expand on this: I'm sure that if you had a custom bike made in Japan from a good frame-maker that you could get as good a bike as anywhere. But all of the Japanese bikes I owned and ridden were very middle of the road and the handling was more laid back than just about any Italian bike I've ridden. I've been riding for 40 years and have always been interested in trying every bike I could.
Got me there, I've only been riding for about 55 years, but hey, I took a break for about 12 years to serve and defend for the big money.
Presently I have 7 bikes and two frames in my garage. In general I use Campy Record stuff but I will admit that the Ultegra and DuraAce are probably better groups. I just can't get used to using them after all this time on Campy.
Presently I have 12 bikes and two frames in my bike room. In general, I use Dura Ace, but the Ultegra is pretty close, especially R8000. I've had Campy Record Carbon, which was slow, and currently run 10sp Centaur, 7sp Synchro Chorus, and 7sp friction Super Record on 3 bikes. The Centaur is as nice as the Ultegra, but nothing touches 9sp Dura Ace (the 11sp is very close). Oh, yeah, and the Colnago is fairly ponderous, so I'm putting 9sp Dura Ace on it in lieu of the 10-sp Campy I'd gathered.
But the Centurions, Bridgestones and the like that ended up here were all far below the high quality steel Italians bikes that are all over the place.
When you talk about high "quality," do you mean the paint? Not. Do you mean the decals? Not. Do you mean the quality of the brazing and lugs? Not. Tsunoda's precision may be "cold," but it's precise, and I'll put a '79 Semi Pro or '84 Lotus Classique up against any Italian marque costing 4x as much.
Though carbon fiber bikes are altogether different and for my money Taiwan has a pretty clear lead.
You forgot modern steel, where US bespoke builders are easily creating as good, if not better, models than anyone, much less Italians or Klingons. For less than the price of a new Super Corsa, you can get a custom frame, built to your specs, with equal or better brazing, paint, and graphics. From at least a dozen folks.
I can only say, in response to my riding junk, that apparently, you have spent your time in a narrow world, confident in your own limited experience.
Perhaps. It may behoove you to cease using the Road Forum etiquette here. We don't (generally) operate like that.
Think outside your Italian box. Ride my junk bikes any time.
I disagree with you, and feel qualified to say so. I did the Ironman, on an Ironman. It was a decision not made lightly. The LBS offered me "better," but I danced with the babe I'd brung, and she was fine.
I'll show up and ride on many nice bikes, but given a 'druther (and I do have a 'druther or two), I'm riding my '88 Ironman. It's as good, period. And of course, it was 1/5 the price then, and is generally 1/5 the price now, unless my alleged hype has boosted it to 1/4 or 1/3.
My Colnago is nice, but not an Ironman. The Pinarello is slightly nicer, but not 5x, 4x, 3x, 2x. Maybe 2% better.
Furthermore, I once had idle curiosity, and couldn't leave well enough alone, so I outfitted my DeRosa, Merckx Corsa Extra, and an '88 Ironman with the same DA 2x9 downtube shifters, DA hubs laced to Velocity A23's, same 700x25 Conti GP4000SII's. Indistinguishable. All rode like silk.
Doesn't mean Italian bikes are not cool. They have an intrinsic character, through which you can feel and read the mind and hands of a craftsman. They sell for more because of people like you, which is fine.
As I've said before, the approach was different.
Different, not better.
That'll be 3.50