Originally Posted by
BikeWonder
I was wondering what you guys thought about retailers such as Velo Orange, Rivbikes, and ReneHerse Cycles (formally known as Compass Cycles).
I'm not going to go into the philosophy of each owners as they all have their ideology and fanbase, but I'd like to talk about their products.
Personally, I find VO the best of both worlds. Great quality and affordable pricing, thought I feel they do lack some amenities.
Riv bike, I'm not really sure what to think about them. I never bought from them personally,but it seems like they're just in a unique area for custom builds and parts.
Where I find things getting interesting is ReneHerse cycles. I've heard countless great things from their tire lineup, but when I went to look at their other products I couldn't believe how horribly overpriced some things were. It seems like they are really banking on the premium ReneHerse name and have a fancy magazine to display their products in action. I recently saw a video of Janheine discussing how they spend little to no money on marketing, but their prime source of marketing is their magazine itself and constantly praising their own products, followed by the fanbase willing to pay the high price because they read about how great something is.
But then again there is always a choice to buy products from them. I wish I could justify buying a certain part, but I can't with the price when places such as VO and Rivbikes offer them from a much lower price, despite not having the name "ReneHerse"
For example, VO offers a triple crank with 48/34/24 $195.
RH offers a similar crank, albeit with more range options, for $515, more than double the price.
Comparing other products, I don't see why I would buy anything from RH other than their tires.
In the end, all the respective owners are good at one thing: They have the ability to write in a way to convince you that their product is superior in some unique way.
But that's the price of a hobby from C&V. I guess what you build is only worth what you believe it is. They all come from similar factories in Taiwan. They are all great products.
What sets them apart, at least to me, is how they are portrayed and described by their owners.
I wish I could compare products across those three distributors instead of reading what they have to say about it on their blog/website.
Part of the beauty of C&V is being able to eat from the big kids' table, but still pay kids menu prices.
You have to remember what's all going on. Just because you got a top of the line bike from 1985 for $20 doesn't mean that bike is only worth $20. Conversely, a bike that was the equivalent of a $3000 bike in 1985 is no longer worth the equivalence of $3000.
It's a good thing to question what things are- sometimes you find you're getting ripped off. Sometimes you find you develop an appreciation for something you didn't know was there. You have to decide if there's a difference in that quality- you have to decide if you want that quality- you have to decide if that quality is worth paying for.
In regards to VO, Rivendell and Compass/Rene Herse-
First- Rivendell only designs and sells frames. They have some input on getting parts developed for them (such as the Tektro R559, the Phil Rivy hub and several Nitto products like the B177 bar, and the Mark's Rack...), but they just recommend and sell things they find meet their own particular... ...idiom. As far as the "retro/vintage" aspect from them- it's just lugged, steel frames, Craftsman style graphics and aesthetic, and advocating friction shifting.
Velo Orange designs a whole line of products that are inspired by "classic" styling- things that wouldn't be all that out of place on an old bike, but on a mass market/cost effective scale. They also appropriate other designs and brand them as Velo Orange. I personally have an opinion (be it fair or not) that most VO stuff is a price point interpretation of C&V stuff. In other words- if you had a vintage piece and a VO interpretation of that piece- the vintage piece would generally be of better quality.
HOWEVER VO products have influenced trends and products in a very good way.
Compass/Rene Herse.... The "Rene Herse" name thing is relatively new. The Compass tires were Compass tires, and I'll refer to them as Compass tires regardless of what the company wishes to change their name to. (Marquette's teams are still the Warriors, the baseball park here is still County Stadium to me). While Compass/Rene Herse do also sell other things besides their own products- they design their own products, and contract to produce their products on a small scale that they control. Your example of the Rene Herse cranks vs the "similar" VO cranks (which are the same as the IRD cranks which are the same as the "Holdworth" cranks...) is sort of like comparing Dura Ace or Super Record to Ultegra/105 parts (or parts made to sorta vaguely look like Dura Ace). You may notice those triples aren't real triples- the granny ring is mounted to the middle ring instead of to the spider. You'll find the same people who will bash on Compass/Rene Herse, but swear up and down that the quality of Dura Ace makes a difference to them over Ultegra. OK.
Just reading your post- it looks like you think the products that Compass/Rene Herse sells are the same products that other companies are selling without the "premium" Rene Herse name.
Compare the VO Gran Cru bars to the Nitto B177 bars. They look "similar." People that I know and trust have compared them- and my guess is there are plenty here who have- what are the results? I'd rather not play ****-**** games- I just got the B177 bars. If the Compass bars would have been available wider when I was looking- I would have gotten those. Of course, you can compare the VO bottle cages to the Nitto and King Cage versions- IMO- the VO cages feel "cheap" compared to either the King Cage or Nitto- or even vintage Blackburn cages.
Damning products as "horribly overpriced" overlooks what it takes to get high quality/low volume products made. Irrespective of the name- who else makes cranks of that quality to those specs? You're not talking about a rebadged IRD Defiant crankset churned out by the thousands. No one else makes those cantilevers.
Regarding advertising and marketing... when you're the only player in the game- you make the rules. Realistically - why would Compass/Rene Herse pay to advertise? Throwing money at a mainstream cycling publication would be useless- they're not selling flat black parts or carbon fiber... That's what the mainstream cycling population wants to buy.
So when you look at what the unique items are in the Compass/Rene Herse lineup- they're their own parts. Contracted to be forged on a small scale. Bars made by the premium handlebar makers in the world to their own specs... if it's worth it to you- it's worth it to you. You can complain that some clown has too much money to burn choosing Campagnolo over Shimano or DA over Ultegra or Ultegra over 105. Or that some poseur thinks he's hot **** because he threw down for Nitto over Gran Cru... Yeah there's stuff that you're getting bent over about. IMO/E you're going to pay more for anything thru Rivendell or Compass for items you can get elsewhere. For their own unique items- they charge a fair price for what they're selling in relation to what else is available- and it's unfair to equate pricing with rebadged high volume mass produced parts to higher quality, lower volume parts.