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Improving 1 minute power

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Improving 1 minute power

Old 07-14-15, 09:30 PM
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Was gonna write some long winded drivel and decided not to.
Only 2 things:
1) Technical definitions aside, I feel anaerobic when an effort is hard enough that my lungs cant take in enough air to let my legs start burning (actual interval times vary).
2) These 4' intervals I do once a week (full 6 minute recovery), are freaking amazing all around workouts for me.
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Old 07-14-15, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by echappist
You may think you can be your own lexicographer, but that doesn't make you correct. An anaerobic effort has a standard definition, full stop.

A true anaerobic effort doesn't go much further than 2 minutes, maybe 2.5 if you are really anaerobically gifted. That you are conflating a 4 min effort to be anaerobic suggests that you have no idea what anaerobic means. FYI, a 4.5 min effort at 120%+ is still, by definition, an aerobic effort; it's known as individual pursuit in some circles.

Last year in one crit i did 110% AP (115% NP) for the last 10 minutes to get in the break that stayed away in a very tough crit. The first 3.3 min of the move was at 123%. Guess what, that's still an aerobic effort because had it been truly anaerobic, i'd have blown the gasket by the 4th minute and probably would have been too shattered to even latch onto the field.
I think your definition of anaerobic efforts is a little off. Basically any effort over threshold (FTP, CP etc) has an anaerobic component. The amount of power over threshold for a given duration is a function of your anaerobic work capacity (AWC). Monod & Sherrer came up with the original equation: P = CP + AWC/T defining the maximum power P you can put out for a time T.
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Old 07-14-15, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by echappist
A true anaerobic effort doesn't go much further than 2 minutes, maybe 2.5 if you are really anaerobically gifted. That you are conflating a 4 min effort to be anaerobic suggests that you have no idea what anaerobic means. FYI, a 4.5 min effort at 120%+ is still, by definition, an aerobic effort; it's known as individual pursuit in circles.
If by 'true anaerobic' you mean purely anaerobic I would agree with those times; but it's a spectrum not a hard line, and there are intensities where anaerobic and aerobic energy systems are both strongly contributing to the effort. To me calling those 3-5' intensities aerobic isn't entirely accurate either.
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Old 07-14-15, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
Lactate formation?

Your muscles do that walking to the refrigerator for a glass of orange juice.
That is the most concise definition that I could find on the interweb.
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Old 07-14-15, 11:06 PM
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Racers do not usually win alone on their 1-min power. Non racers can have very high 1 min power. When do you want that power?
At 15 min in - or at the end of a race - and how long is the race and how many hills before...
Looking at your charts - do leg presses - partial range and take supplements - creatine and protein and don't worry about your weight. You may get slower, but your 1 min power will go up.

You will likely not have Lactate - or even Lactic Acid issues for the 1st one min power output, but subsequent efforts have more to do with fitness and your ability to deal with LA than actual 1 min power capabilities.
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Old 07-14-15, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83
I think your definition of anaerobic efforts is a little off. Basically any effort over threshold (FTP, CP etc) has an anaerobic component. The amount of power over threshold for a given duration is a function of your anaerobic work capacity (AWC). Monod & Sherrer came up with the original equation: P = CP + AWC/T defining the maximum power P you can put out for a time T.
i'm aware of that, but as alluded to before, any physical exertion will produce lactate. Anaerobic glycolysis (viz. glucose converted to lactate) happens at all times, but the equally fast clearance of lactate means that there is no build up of lactate, thus no increase in lactate concentration over the baseline. It's not the production of lactate, per se, that makes something an anaerobic effort, but rather an anaerobic effort suggest an effort in which anerobic glycolysis accounts for a majority of the energy production, and it just so happens that the time scale for this is such that it is short (less than 2.5 min), and that this exertion level quickly leads to the production lactate at a level that is untenable. And by untenable, i mean that the lactate level gets so high that the exertion has to cease after 2-2.5 min. The anaerobic power zone are thusly named because such a high rate of overall energy production can be maintained only with significant contributions from glycolysis, and as such, are limited in duration.

I think the following chart may be instructive.



Originally Posted by jsk
If by 'true anaerobic' you mean purely anaerobic I would agree with those times; but it's a spectrum not a hard line, and there are intensities where anaerobic and aerobic energy systems are both strongly contributing to the effort. To me calling those 3-5' intensities aerobic isn't entirely accurate either.
well, nothing is purely anaerobic as there's an aerobic component (as alluded above) even for kilo exertions. I should have qualified my statement that 3-5 min exertions is mostly aerobic.

Regardless, the point stands that dealing with criterium surges cannot be characterized as something that can be solved by focusing on increases in AWC (except for a final kilo move, etc) because while it may address the issue of power generation at high lactate concentration, it would not address producing such surges for 15-20 times within a 10-min window because by definition, an effort that stretches out that long has a significant aerobic contribution, be it contribution from aerobic oxidation or the clearance of lactate (which can happen only when one is operating below lactate threshold).
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Old 07-14-15, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
Racers do not usually win alone on their 1-min power. Non racers can have very high 1 min power. When do you want that power?
At 15 min in - or at the end of a race - and how long is the race and how many hills before...
Looking at your charts - do leg presses - partial range and take supplements - creatine and protein and don't worry about your weight. You may get slower, but your 1 min power will go up.

You will likely not have Lactate - or even Lactic Acid issues for the 1st one min power output, but subsequent efforts have more to do with fitness and your ability to deal with LA than actual 1 min power capabilities.
are you saying that team sprinters and kilo specialists are not " racers" ?
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Old 07-14-15, 11:14 PM
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If there isn't a hill, there isn't a race.
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Old 07-15-15, 06:14 AM
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OP's power profile shows that he's relatively strong when the efforts are long and steady, but relatively weak when they're short and punchy. Your 5s power is also very low. You lack raw power. It's not so much a 'fitness' thing as it is a lack of power on the short end. It's not like you have the 5s power and *lack* the 1min power. That would be a different story. You need raw power in the short, sprinty efforts, period. So you don't need to focus only on the 1min efforts: you need to be working on your sprinting, too.
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Old 07-15-15, 06:17 AM
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Also, I strongly recommend *against* creatine. It has a history of producing dehydration problems in endurance athletes. Leave the weight room bodybuilding nonsense to the bodybuilders.

Also, you don't actually 'want' 1min max power. What you seem to be needing is the VO2 max effort in the last 2-3 laps of a crit to stay in contention. You also need to work on your surge power *and recovery* before that. So you have lots of things to work on.

Over-unders will be really good for you. 2-8min VO2max efforts at the *end* of a ride/workout will be good (to help simulate when they come in a race).
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Old 07-15-15, 06:29 AM
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Putting to rest the myth of creatine supplementation leading to muscle cramps and dehydration. - PubMed - NCBI
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Old 07-15-15, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by burger0014
Only really been racing this year, coming off an 8 year layoff and previously racing mountain bikes. Lost 70 lbs and started racing on the road this year. I feel like I'm fairly fit, could stand to lose another 5-8 lbs though. Profile is below, no idea how to make it bigger without clicking though
welcome back.

I'm not going to get into the definition pissing matches but rather try to focus on your question. I'm not sure if the data you have here is skewed to over represent your 5/20/60 minute power due to having more sample size from training, that happens sometimes due to just targeting those and only having the 1' and 5" on racedays (so your wattages might be lower as you're not doing those efforts as fresh as you are the workout efforts), but based on what you posted, you appear to show greater proficiency in the "aerobic" areas than the neuromuscular or anaerobic work capacity areas. even with that, I'm still not convinced that 1' MMP is the area to focus on. Others have written this, and I would agree, that doing work that forces you to put down hard efforts when you're tongue is already wagging is probably the area to work on, examples would be things like tempo with a 10" sprint every 3' (something like an hour of power); pyramids where you do something like 1/3/5/7/3/2/1 with = rest; multiple sets of 4x40" hard/20" ez; multiple sets of 8x30" hard/30" at zone 2; or other similarly structured sessions. the key being to force yourself to go deep when your system is already taxed. The tricky part is to fit those into your workouts to get benefit without mucking up being fresh for your racing. If you're racing on weekends, I'd hit these on a wednesday, that way you have thursday and friday for recovering.

even with that, it might not be a physical or training thing at all, you might just have yourself cooked at the end of races due to not racing properly for your fitness (i.e. chasing everyone and everything all race long, spending too much time in the wind, leading the pack around, being on the wrong side of the pack relative to the wind, pack comfort issues, etc.). correcting those aspects of your racing can result in "free" watts to use at the end when it's go time, so consider how you're racing as well.
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Old 07-15-15, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Also, I strongly recommend *against* creatine. It has a history of producing dehydration problems in endurance athletes. Leave the weight room bodybuilding nonsense to the bodybuilders.

Also, you don't actually 'want' 1min max power. What you seem to be needing is the VO2 max effort in the last 2-3 laps of a crit to stay in contention. You also need to work on your surge power *and recovery* before that. So you have lots of things to work on.

Over-unders will be really good for you. 2-8min VO2max efforts at the *end* of a ride/workout will be good (to help simulate when they come in a race).
It might be because I "used to" be a meathead and simply enjoy it, but I still think powerlifting and cross training in the winter is a good idea for a lot of people for a bunch of reasons. Note that bodybuilding is infinitely different from powerlifting/olympic lifting. As long as its done gradually, with good form (worth getting a coach), and without injury..*ahem*..

I also think creatine is effective at helping fuel short intense efforts, and as long as you can push yourself to do those correctly AND overload the muscle/energy system, creatine helps fuel a couple extra reps with intensity, and in theory, a couple extra points toward adaptation. That's just based on my general sense on reading and rereading over the years, not going to point to a particular paper. Usefulness can be disputed for cycling- but <1', and probably closer to <=15seconds is where it's more likely to help vs. 20'+. I would say though, that moderately trained cyclists are better off spending more time on the bike than the weight room for this stuff because of the technical/pedaling skills that develop at the same time as the energy system.

Last edited by longe; 07-15-15 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 07-15-15, 07:46 AM
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the kilometer time trial on the track falls into this range. I would try to find out what kind of training those who are doing this event are doing. This event uses anaerobic pathways. Some guys train with weights some for an explosive start. They also need to train both the alactic anaerobic pathway and also the lactic acid system to handle the lactic acid that will build near 3/4 mark of the race. I raced this even a couple of times in my 40's. They don't call it the "killer kilo" for nothing. When the bear jumps on your back it is quite an experience. By the way this type of training does not do anything to enhance your aerobic capacity.
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Old 07-15-15, 10:18 AM
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Hey Chappy

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Old 07-15-15, 10:21 AM
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thanks for implying that im not fat
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Old 07-15-15, 10:37 AM
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real answer: do 1 min efforts at 100% and get used to feeling like you're dying. step up both mental game and train what you want to improve.
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Old 07-15-15, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
Hey Chappy

isn't that supposed to be a Twix or something?
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Old 07-15-15, 11:07 AM
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hangry
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Old 07-15-15, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Also, I strongly recommend *against* creatine. It has a history of producing dehydration problems in endurance athletes. Leave the weight room bodybuilding nonsense to the bodybuilders.

...
To the OP 1 min power request - nothing [legal] better.
I was responding to the OP - not what I thought the OP really wanted.
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Old 07-15-15, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
real answer: do 1 min efforts at 100% and get used to feeling like you're dying. step up both mental game and train what you want to improve.
think of all the kbs the BF servers could have saved and saved from future access if this had been the first response
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Old 07-15-15, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Also, I strongly recommend *against* creatine. It has a history of producing dehydration problems in endurance athletes. Leave the weight room bodybuilding nonsense to the bodybuilders.
this.
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my race videos
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Old 07-15-15, 12:39 PM
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this

Originally Posted by mattm
this.
not this

Originally Posted by longe
think of all the kbs the BF servers could have saved and saved from future access if this had been the first response
none. nobody wants the simple answer of "work at it".
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Old 07-15-15, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
the simple answer
No time for this when you are on the interwebs!
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Old 07-15-15, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
real answer: do 1 min efforts at 100% and get used to feeling like you're dying. step up both mental game and train what you want to improve.
For me, I think it's a lot of this and what MDCAT said. Need to learn to push harder, and also push harder while being tired. Did 1 minute efforts last night until I cracked, saw heart rates I never see, even when racing so I'm on my way.
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