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Training Status??? (IV)

Old 06-07-16, 08:42 AM
  #5101  
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@PepeM I will give you my perspective as a "break rider". I think that we fall into more than one category. One is the long distance, the other is the short distance and both require slightly different profiles. A long break rider typically is someone who does better over long period, and is able to do more repeated efforts. A short break rider tends to be someone who has better overall power.

For me I know that I do better in longer breaks. My 5 minute power is my true strength, along with a pretty good 20 minute. My 1 minute is atrocious apparently and might explain why I don't do well in thing like 3 lap to go breaks or anything that is short but super fast.

YMMV
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Old 06-07-16, 09:17 AM
  #5102  
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I honestly think the trick with being a break rider isn't about W/kg at different durations as it is picking the right moment. You can beat yourself into the ground trying to get something established for 3/4 of the race, only to fail to go with the decisive move when it happens. Okay, power can tell you something about your chances in a solo break - my W/kg for 20' is okay, probably around 4.7 at this point when I'm fresh. But that's less than 270. Not a lot to work with when solo, even with a good Cda. But that doesn't rule out breaks, it just means I really need some help so I can go over during my pulls and recover in the draft. Though hey, who knows, it could even work given the right circumstances. Breaks generally don't stick because they're collectively stronger than the rest of the field, they stick because they've got a gap and more strength among the riders committed to working the break than those committed to chasing it down. Enough disorder in the peloton and even puny li'l me could ride away solo. I'm not holding my breath, though.
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Old 06-07-16, 12:09 PM
  #5103  
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
Also, I know that if I just stay with the pack my chances of winning are pretty much non-existent, so what's the point?
How do you know?

I thought that too, until I started winning field sprints.

Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
As the great philosopher Shovelcrates once wrote: "If it comes down to a sprint, you won't win, so don't let it."
One of the favorite pieces of "advice" I got when I was a cat 5 was a salty veteran cat 3 on the team telling me "you'll never win a field sprint, go for the break."

That made me want to win a field sprint really bad, so I did!
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Old 06-07-16, 12:14 PM
  #5104  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
How do you know?

I thought that too, until I started winning field sprints.
Therein lies the problem, doesn't it?

Answer, right now, is that my sprinting technique sucks. Need to work on that but once I get better at it I agree with you that the only way I'll find out is by giving it a try. But yes, every time I try to sprint I just either wobble or my butt ends up back on my saddle. Just can't seem to put the power down.
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Old 06-07-16, 12:19 PM
  #5105  
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
Therein lies the problem, doesn't it?

Answer, right now, is that my sprinting technique sucks. Need to work on that but once I get better at it I agree with you that the only way I'll find out is by giving it a try. But yes, every time I try to sprint I just either wobble or my butt ends up back on my saddle. Just can't seem to put the power down.
In a way that's good - sounds like there is a lot to improve on, and it's mostly around sprint form.

Look up "form sprints", and try those. Practice the motions over and over again.

Another thing about sprinting is when you're really trying to sprint, literally try to rip the bars off. Try to break the bike with your sprint. CDR has written books on the subject, I'm sure he can add to this!

As a side-note, I gained 200w in my sprint when I switched from (old, loose) SPD cleats to (new, tight) Speedplays. It also took a lot of practice - working on form, working on power, etc.

Once you get all that down, then you have to work on doing it in a race - timing, tactics. That part makes sprint practice seem easy!

Also: my sprint power has me in the cat 3 column, I'm certainly not a "sprinter" by power profile. I just like to do them.
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Old 06-07-16, 12:42 PM
  #5106  
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you can get pretty far in cat 3 and below sprints with good positioning and knowing when to jump.
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Old 06-07-16, 12:56 PM
  #5107  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
In a way that's good - sounds like there is a lot to improve on, and it's mostly around sprint form.

Look up "form sprints", and try those. Practice the motions over and over again.

Another thing about sprinting is when you're really trying to sprint, literally try to rip the bars off. Try to break the bike with your sprint. CDR has written books on the subject, I'm sure he can add to this!

As a side-note, I gained 200w in my sprint when I switched from (old, loose) SPD cleats to (new, tight) Speedplays. It also took a lot of practice - working on form, working on power, etc.

Once you get all that down, then you have to work on doing it in a race - timing, tactics. That part makes sprint practice seem easy!

Also: my sprint power has me in the cat 3 column, I'm certainly not a "sprinter" by power profile. I just like to do them.

Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
you can get pretty far in cat 3 and below sprints with good positioning and knowing when to jump.
I have done some form sprints in the past. Really need to get more of that done. I also do remember doing better when holding really tight to the bars, but I forget to do that most of the time. Wish I didn't read about the SPD cleats as that's what I have right now, don't need upgrade ideas lurking in my head right now!

I am aware of the importance of timing and positioning, but that seems even harder to figure out. Still trying to but there is a lot of improvement to be made. The one time I felt I was well positioned we ran into some lapped riders occupying the middle of the road and I had to take the wide lane around them, which made me lose my wheel.

In summary, I'll try to win the sprint out of a breakaway tonight.
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Old 06-07-16, 01:53 PM
  #5108  
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
I have done some form sprints in the past. Really need to get more of that done. I also do remember doing better when holding really tight to the bars, but I forget to do that most of the time. Wish I didn't read about the SPD cleats as that's what I have right now, don't need upgrade ideas lurking in my head right now!

I am aware of the importance of timing and positioning, but that seems even harder to figure out. Still trying to but there is a lot of improvement to be made. The one time I felt I was well positioned we ran into some lapped riders occupying the middle of the road and I had to take the wide lane around them, which made me lose my wheel.

In summary, I'll try to win the sprint out of a breakaway tonight.
Fwiw my SPDs were the mtn-specific ones, not road pedals. I've heard the road SPDs are much better.

Also mine were just really loose (had some give when pulling up).

Anyway good luck!
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Old 06-07-16, 02:06 PM
  #5109  
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ouch, in an effort to avoid thunderstorms that aren't seeming to materialize, i did a zwift race in my basement. avg 231w (NP 234) for 55 mins. that was toasty
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Old 06-07-16, 02:53 PM
  #5110  
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more 1' on off efforts today. wanted to do a second workout after work, but i'm pretty sleepy and taking a nap sounds more appealing.
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Old 06-07-16, 02:55 PM
  #5111  
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My legs hurt.
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Old 06-07-16, 03:37 PM
  #5112  
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Speaking of sprints, I did more drag race sprints this morning before work. They hurt, but they're over quickly.
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Old 06-07-16, 03:39 PM
  #5113  
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I leked lots of farts today and GC watched me with a mild disgust.
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Old 06-08-16, 09:52 AM
  #5114  
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Kicked down a hard one this morning:

48.42 mi w 3.5k elevation in 2.4 hrs, good for 19.9 mph on 215w AP/235w NP

Up next: eating while I try not to pass out at my desk
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Old 06-08-16, 10:05 AM
  #5115  
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Thunderstorms held off yesterday evening, so I went and did 7x2' repeats. Goal being repeatability rather than max power, so I targeted 350W for the first six, only went bonkers on the last one. 389 for the last one... makes me think next time I should shoot for 360 or 370, if I had that much left.
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Old 06-08-16, 10:18 AM
  #5116  
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
In summary, I'll try to win the sprint out of a breakaway tonight.
Did none of those. Largest field I've ever seen last night and also the fastest race. Tried to shake things up a bit mid-race but nothing materialized. Dropped into the bunch a bit to rest and then got stuck in there. With five laps or so left I saw the winning move go and it was clear that was the good one but I just couldn't find a way to move up, so I didn't. I don't really get why no one who was better positioned went with it, but I guess that's what makes it a winning move as opposed to another one that gets caught. Then the last two laps I couldn't move up either, so I rolled in with the pack. Sucks when you leave with a bit something extra to give but don't get the chance. I guess 'moving up' needs to be added to the long list of things I need to learn. NP was 276 for a 1.10 IF, so maybe I'm fooling myself thinking I could have done much. But I wanted to try, darn it!
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Old 06-08-16, 11:22 AM
  #5117  
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
Speaking of sprints, I did more drag race sprints this morning before work. They hurt, but they're over quickly.
What's a drag race sprint?
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Old 06-08-16, 11:32 AM
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Standing start?
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Old 06-08-16, 12:40 PM
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Been so long since I have done 3X20s . They were both glorious and horrible. I ended up far closer to Z4 than SS. Which is good. But they felt bad. I am confused.

I guess this means I can still ride breakaways.
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Old 06-08-16, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
What's a drag race sprint?
Standing start. Alternate big and little rings, middle of the cassette, no shifting.
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Old 06-08-16, 12:44 PM
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Had a somewhat heated political/philosophical argument with my training partner on what was supposed to be a tempo ride this morning. Came within a few watts of my 30' best.
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Old 06-08-16, 01:48 PM
  #5122  
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
Standing start. Alternate big and little rings, middle of the cassette, no shifting.
Ah gotcha.

I haven't done those in a while... good reminder to get back to 'em. They are good!
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Old 06-08-16, 01:50 PM
  #5123  
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
Had a somewhat heated political/philosophical argument with my training partner on what was supposed to be a tempo ride this morning. Came within a few watts of my 30' best.
I have a work colleague that's on a different side of politics than me, but luckily we can have a non-heated discussion about stuff.

Asked someone else today (at work) who they voted for, they refused to talk about it.. probably smart! I'm not that smart tho.
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Old 06-08-16, 02:21 PM
  #5124  
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Did the training crit yesterday - got there with literally three minutes until roll out, clipped in just as the pack was rolling out and caught on to race (no numbers required, I paid later, they were cool with it).

Basically just attacked a lot. Never got away.

Came down to a field sprint, which I attacked about 800m out. Unfortunately about 30m too soon... but it was really good training!

134 TSS for the 1:08 race, 269w AP/325w NP (way higher than normal). Either my pwoermeter is broken or I got stronger recently. Or I just tried harder than usual.
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Old 06-08-16, 02:31 PM
  #5125  
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
Had a somewhat heated political/philosophical argument with my training partner on what was supposed to be a tempo ride this morning. Came within a few watts of my 30' best.

I hope you gave that fascist/communist/sellout/conman/hippie/murderer/phony/cultist/liar what for!
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