Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Training Status??? (IV)

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Training Status??? (IV)

Old 05-13-17, 11:31 PM
  #8751  
Senior Member
 
aaronmcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SF, CA
Posts: 3,462

Bikes: Cervelo S5, Marin Gestalt X11

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 554 Post(s)
Liked 65 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by revchuck
That kind of head-clearing ride can do more positively for your mindset than a good race, plus racing while distracted can cause its own problems. Hope your negative stuff straightens out!
+1
That kind of ride especially in that situation can be great. Sometimes I have fun and do fine at a race and still get bit jealous of the 90 mile rides on Strava! Lol
aaronmcd is offline  
Old 05-14-17, 02:40 PM
  #8752  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444

Bikes: bikes

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times in 711 Posts
Managed to get about 11.5 hours this week. First time over 10 hours since March. CTL has been hovering in the low 90s since then as well, which was perfect for racing, but June and July have all of the big time races so I'm going to try to ramp it up a bit and get a couple of 15+ hour weeks in sometime before Nationals June 30th.

Have a big four day race weekend in Iowa in two weeks, then a big omnium in the east TN mountains the next (with an 80 mile rr ending with an 8 mile climb...whatttt... Haven't done anything longer than 25 mins in the last 14 years!), then another omnium in west TN before heading up to two big crits in Ohio the week before Nats. Time to hop on the hard road.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 05-14-17, 02:50 PM
  #8753  
Senior Member
 
Wylde06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 2,208

Bikes: Cannondale Six13

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 21 Posts
Hyde Park and Maderia?
Wylde06 is offline  
Old 05-14-17, 07:45 PM
  #8754  
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Posts: 9,789
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 60 Posts
Every time I start rolling on the training, something happens. Came down with a brutal head cold last week. Off for three days. Finally felt able to do some time on the rollers over the weekend, so I salvaged something from this week but man it's just been a brutal winter+spring in grolby land. Still managing an iffy IT band, too. But damn it, it's high time I held together a real training schedule.
grolby is offline  
Old 05-14-17, 08:20 PM
  #8755  
Senior Member
 
wktmeow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 703

Bikes: CAAD 10

Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 277 Post(s)
Liked 229 Times in 111 Posts
Originally Posted by aaronmcd
+1
That kind of ride especially in that situation can be great. Sometimes I have fun and do fine at a race and still get bit jealous of the 90 mile rides on Strava! Lol
Yea it felt pretty good flogging myself like that. Plus it doesn't hurt to work on my climbing. Slept like a baby last night, and still pretty fatigued today. Coach is having me skip the planned workout today though, so still only 516 TSS for the week. Bah, that's 3 weeks now in the 500 TSS range, when I did a couple back to back 900s before. Hope my fitness doesn't fall off too much.

Anyway, teammates said that the race was a day for the climbers due to the tailwind up the hill, so doesn't sound like I missed out.
wktmeow is offline  
Old 05-14-17, 08:26 PM
  #8756  
Senior Member
 
miyata man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,182
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I trashed my legs during the latter part of the week and could hardly turn the pedals over today.
miyata man is offline  
Old 05-14-17, 11:58 PM
  #8757  
Senior Member
 
aaronmcd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SF, CA
Posts: 3,462

Bikes: Cervelo S5, Marin Gestalt X11

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 554 Post(s)
Liked 65 Times in 45 Posts
Road race yesterday, but my wife started her new weekend job at the yoga studio today so I had to keep myself occupied...

Rode up north to a dirt trail that climbs over a big ass hill over 6 miles to a beach only accessible via trails. Missed out on seeing the falls cuz they are a 20+ minute hike down the beach and I was already gonna get home after 7 with my planned point reyes station food stop. Maybe next time. I could leave my bike cuz ain't no one around able to ride it back over that hill. I even had trouble with a few really steep gravelly bits mashing 4 mph at 400 watts in 34-28! Made it back over somehow tho, and finished out the ride at a tad over 100 miles, 8700 feet and only 300 TSS due to fatigue!
aaronmcd is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 09:25 AM
  #8758  
Nonsense
 
TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vagabond
Posts: 13,918

Bikes: Affirmative

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked 541 Times in 237 Posts
Race sim. 1hr of random accelerations with highish NP, 1.5hrs of z2 rolling, 1.5hrs of over under breakaway effort type stuff starting with a vo2 effort.

edit: my coach veoted this. so instead of the final 1.5hrs it's 2x15. "you have enough watts already, focus on staying healthy"

Last edited by TheKillerPenguin; 05-15-17 at 09:54 AM.
TheKillerPenguin is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 10:54 AM
  #8759  
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Look I made a spreadsheet.



I am really trying to figure out this vo2max thing. These are three vo2max workouts that I've done in the past couple of weeks, showing how many minutes in each zone.

The first is a typical 7x3 minutes @ 120%, probably the type of vo2max workout most of us do.

The second is @rubiksoval's "as much time as you can spend at 100% vo2max" which worked out to about 4x3 minutes @ 128%. Harder intervals but less time in zone.

The third is an intermittent vo2max workout: 3 sets of 15 reps of 30 seconds @ 135% followed by 20 seconds Z2.


All three of these workouts involved plenty of gasping and generally feeling like vo2max was being accomplished. Just looking at these numbers, it seems like the intermittent workout is kind of a winner. It's both the most time in zone, and the highest power output during the intervals.

Last edited by globecanvas; 05-15-17 at 11:08 AM.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 11:14 AM
  #8760  
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2953 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times in 1,417 Posts
Are you doing the intermittent one on a trainer? Do you program it into your Garmin/Joule/headunit? I would probably get confused and lose count.
caloso is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 11:18 AM
  #8761  
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by caloso
Are you doing the intermittent one on a trainer? Do you program it into your Garmin/Joule/headunit? I would probably get confused and lose count.
It was on the road. I hit the lap button for each 30s and also each 20s, so I knew laps 30, 60, and 90 would be the last "on" interval of each set. No way could I have counted them.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 11:21 AM
  #8762  
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2953 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times in 1,417 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas
It was on the road. I hit the lap button for each 30s and also each 20s, so I knew laps 30, 60, and 90 would be the last "on" interval of each set. No way could I have counted them.
Makes sense.
caloso is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 04:05 PM
  #8763  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444

Bikes: bikes

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times in 711 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas
All three of these workouts involved plenty of gasping and generally feeling like vo2max was being accomplished. Just looking at these numbers, it seems like the intermittent workout is kind of a winner. It's both the most time in zone, and the highest power output during the intervals.

Nice work. Good analyzing and stuff.

I was planning on doing a couple of 40s/20s in the upcoming weeks. I'm curious to as to how the data will play out with the vo2 kinetics and such. I was thinking, too, that it'd give you quite a bit of cumulative time.

Plus, to me that seems like one of the most specific workouts for races I do as that's really close to the effort/power I'd put out driving a 2-3 man break, and though the rests would be easier, they'd also be shorter. Should be a good one for topping off the tank.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 04:08 PM
  #8764  
»\_(ツ)_/»
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas
All three of these workouts involved plenty of gasping and generally feeling like vo2max was being accomplished. Just looking at these numbers, it seems like the intermittent workout is kind of a winner. It's both the most time in zone, and the highest power output during the intervals.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think it merits consideration if that is what really stimulates vo2 improvement.

just really reductively you could do a million 5s sprints with rest and get high z6/z7 times and power, but never even get into vo2-max aerobically.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 04:09 PM
  #8765  
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2953 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times in 1,417 Posts
Planned to do a sweet spot 2x30' set this morning with my training partner and then we got into a political/philosophical/theological argument and I ended up needing to up my FTP. This is not the first time it's happened.
caloso is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 05:13 PM
  #8766  
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Ygduf
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think it merits consideration if that is what really stimulates vo2 improvement.

just really reductively you could do a million 5s sprints with rest and get high z6/z7 times and power, but never even get into vo2-max aerobically.

I totally get what you're saying, but it seems pretty clear that this particular intermittent workout is plenty of legitimate time in vo2max. Shortening the rest interval from 20s to 15s would increase the difficulty and no doubt the time in vo2max by a lot. I don't ride with HR any more but I think that would help answer the question.

FWIW there is one of those Lillehammer nordic racer studies out there showing that 30+15 intervals give significantly more vo2max improvement in trained athletes than the equivalent amount of time in longer (like 5 minute) intervals. But like everything else, it's just a data point.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 05:17 PM
  #8767  
»\_(ツ)_/»
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas

FWIW there is one of those Lillehammer nordic racer studies out there showing that 30+15 intervals give significantly more vo2max improvement in trained athletes than the equivalent amount of time in longer (like 5 minute) intervals. But like everything else, it's just a data point.
That I didn't know. So if I read your table and what you're pointing to here correctly then is that doing 30s 135% 20s rest over and over is "best"?

I want to clarify because I'll probably try it for variety sometime.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 05:24 PM
  #8768  
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I'm not qualified to say what's best. Here's some additional info. The specific SI (short interval) workout discussed below is harder than what I did -- fewer total intervals but less rest between.

Joe Friel - High-Intensity Interval Duration

Originally Posted by Friel
The results of the groups’ training were interesting. The LI group improved their VO2max by 2.6% on average over the course of the 10 weeks, but the SI riders had a huge average improvement of 8.7%. SI also made greater performance gains in 30-second, 5-minute and 40-minute time trials.
The original Lillehammer study (paywalled, I haven't read it) -- I'd be surprised if this wasn't discussed earlier in this thread somewhere:

Short intervals induce superior training adaptations compared with long intervals in cyclists ? An effort-matched approach - R°nnestad - 2014 - Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports - Wiley Online Library
globecanvas is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 05:32 PM
  #8769  
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Stating the obvious, either 30/15 or 40/20 would be much harder than 30/20. I'm not advocating the 30/20, it just happens to be what I did today.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 05:58 PM
  #8770  
Senior Member
 
mike868y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,284
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
i've only ever done 30/30 and that is so terrible i have precisely 0 desire to do 40/20 or 30/15
mike868y is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 06:13 PM
  #8771  
Nonsense
 
TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vagabond
Posts: 13,918

Bikes: Affirmative

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked 541 Times in 237 Posts
40/20 is the hotness dawg. 3x15 of them things will turn your legs to jelly
TheKillerPenguin is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 06:54 PM
  #8772  
Senior Member
 
mike868y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,284
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
that literally doesn't even sound possible to me
mike868y is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 07:34 PM
  #8773  
Nonsense
 
TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vagabond
Posts: 13,918

Bikes: Affirmative

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked 541 Times in 237 Posts
It's like one of those things you have to work up to. Start with like 3x10, then 3x12, then 3x15.
TheKillerPenguin is offline  
Old 05-15-17, 08:35 PM
  #8774  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444

Bikes: bikes

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times in 711 Posts
Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
40/20 is the hotness dawg. 3x15 of them things will turn your legs to jelly
That sounds like the insanity.

I shoot for 2x 10 and if I make it the last 3-4 mins of the second one I feel like a very accomplished bike rider.

3x15...oh, the humanity.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 05-16-17, 06:14 AM
  #8775  
Senior Member
 
rankin116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: ChapelBorro NC
Posts: 4,126
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas
I'm not qualified to say what's best. Here's some additional info. The specific SI (short interval) workout discussed below is harder than what I did -- fewer total intervals but less rest between.

Joe Friel - High-Intensity Interval Duration



The original Lillehammer study (paywalled, I haven't read it) -- I'd be surprised if this wasn't discussed earlier in this thread somewhere:

Short intervals induce superior training adaptations compared with long intervals in cyclists ? An effort-matched approach - R°nnestad - 2014 - Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports - Wiley Online Library
I can get it, PM your email and I'll send you a copy.
rankin116 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.