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Training Status??? (IV)

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Old 03-12-18, 04:48 PM
  #11351  
rubiksoval
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
is that a lot?

It is for me. Hence the crushed legs.
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Old 03-12-18, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Radish_legs View Post
It was actually a relatively low wind day as well. About 8mph. Is this kind of riding out of the norm for the hammerfests in your area?

This particular route gets tons of cyclists all the time. So most of the guys know it like the back of their hand.

Don't mistake my post for anything other than a pot shot at Texans
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Old 03-12-18, 07:30 PM
  #11353  
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Originally Posted by wktmeow View Post
I get a bit of that. My NP in a crit has never even come near my FTP, even when I feel like I've been doing a ton of work in the race and finish gassed. For example, VoS crit, I felt like I was in the wind a ton and working really hard in general trying to keep things glued together. Pulled for an entire lap at one point to bring a move back. Strava has me at 237w NP, with a 27.6 mph average. I was gassed at the end, and sore for a while after. @Ttoc6's Strava shows 258w for the same crit and I believe he's a little bit lighter than I am. I'll have teammates showing 300+ for crits while I'll still be in the 220-240 range. Not sure how to explain that, but I'm wondering if maybe I'm just not going 'all out' enough and instead trying to smooth things out too much. I definitely stay well away from the 'I'm about to get dropped' zone, but maybe I need to reach a bit further into the bag and be more aggressive.
Let's see, some examples. Threshold is right around 300W, give or take, weight right around 150-155 depending on the day. I was an avg of 243W and NP of 271W for the Valley of the Sun Crit. The "crit" I did this weekend where I played it pretty similarly, I had an Avg power of 231, NP of 268. Last weekends crit where I was in a solo breakaway for basically the entire race for a mechanical induced loss, I had avg of 266, NP of 286.

On the other hand, I beat someone in a time trial this weekend who put out ~50 more watts than me. Both on a time trial bike. I unperformed my threshold in that race too, but that's more due to aero positioning.

So these examples should just shout "it depends." @spectastic It's rare for me to see numbers close to my threshold in a lot of races because of time spent near zero in the pack. Draft aggressively, race aggressively. Use your power wisely when you have it. If it was a race of who has the highest threshold, we'd call it a a zwift race .
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Old 03-12-18, 10:59 PM
  #11354  
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My hamstring twitched about 20 minutes into my ride; so I shut it down. The smart thing would be to sit out a few days but after missing all of January and February I really don't want to miss more time and see the season slipping away. First Tuesday Worlds is tomorrow and its always hard to skip those.
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Old 03-13-18, 09:47 AM
  #11355  
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hurt my shoulder sliding in a softball game last night. And first crit today. Can barely raise my left arm. But I guess I'm going to try and give it a go.
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Old 03-13-18, 09:59 AM
  #11356  
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Originally Posted by Radish_legs View Post
hurt my shoulder sliding in a softball game last night. And first crit today. Can barely raise my left arm. But I guess I'm going to try and give it a go.

Sharpening my elbows now...
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Old 03-13-18, 10:08 AM
  #11357  
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Originally Posted by Radish_legs View Post
hurt my shoulder sliding in a softball game last night. And first crit today. Can barely raise my left arm. But I guess I'm going to try and give it a go.
So you can't elbow flick. Just don't lead out!
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Old 03-13-18, 11:06 AM
  #11358  
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I need rollers for junior that can take high power, standing without bike hopping off and don't vibrate all over the place. Most work on these will be high intensity.

I'd like bigger drums as they are easier on tires. These are not designed to be travel rollers and will live in a training room. There are other rollers for travel, chilling and watching movies.

I have Kreitler Hot Dogs now, and those are well built and portable.

Any comments on E-Motion (expensive) or TruTrainer (also expensive)?
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Old 03-13-18, 11:10 AM
  #11359  
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gsteinb lives on his e-motions
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Old 03-13-18, 11:34 AM
  #11360  
Radish_legs
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Originally Posted by hammer down View Post
Sharpening my elbows now...
LOL. Just hoping for a safe finish is about the best thing to hope for in the first C crit of the season...and the B crit for that matter.
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Old 03-13-18, 02:35 PM
  #11361  
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I really like my e-Motions. I don't have the latest version - I have one previous. They work great. I can do pretty much all my workouts on them. I do find I can hit higher numbers in sprint efforts on my CycleOps Fluid 2, but that has as much to do with my technique when doing a full-on, out-of-the-saddle sprint on the rollers than anything else.

If I had the extra cash, I'd buy the remote resistance unit. It's not a big deal, but to change resistance, I have to get off to hit the little slide with my foot.
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Old 03-13-18, 03:11 PM
  #11362  
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Day off (other than a mellow commute ride).
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Old 03-13-18, 03:38 PM
  #11363  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I really like my e-Motions. I don't have the latest version - I have one previous. They work great. I can do pretty much all my workouts on them. I do find I can hit higher numbers in sprint efforts on my CycleOps Fluid 2, but that has as much to do with my technique when doing a full-on, out-of-the-saddle sprint on the rollers than anything else.

If I had the extra cash, I'd buy the remote resistance unit. It's not a big deal, but to change resistance, I have to get off to hit the little slide with my foot.
Just found these - same high price. Which are the ones we are talking about?
Features ? Inside Ride
Or these: Review: Elite Real E-Motion Rollers | road.cc ?
I was on elite-real-e-motion site and I saw rollers, but not the free motion ones.

This application will need a PM, but got a PowerTap hub for that. I think power numbers would tend to run a bit higher on a fixed machine in a more upright position vs a road bike, road position that moves under you and requires core and arms to stabilized. I'd rather have the numbers on the bike anyway. It will be interesting to compare in the tent (O2 concentrated) power to outside the tent on the same rollers. I guess - HR will just be lower and legs fatigue sooner. I don't know if power will be higher. I'm not sure for a good cardio guy this helps, but, we will have to see. Junior is pretty stoked to get the offer to use it.
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Old 03-13-18, 03:42 PM
  #11364  
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Weights yesterday, off today, easy tomorrow. Feels weird to be doing such low volume mid season, but trying to get the engine ready for the upgrade. Will be interesting to see how San Dimas goes. Doing some vo2max this weekend, and weights are moved a little early next week to have some extra time to recover and do openers. I'll just be happy if I climb faster than last year. Last time was when I discovered my PM was reading way high, so should be a learning experience either way. Plus I really like the road race course, and I'm hoping to handle more confidently in the crit.
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Old 03-13-18, 04:26 PM
  #11365  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
It will be interesting to compare in the tent (O2 concentrated) power to outside the tent on the same rollers. I guess - HR will just be lower and legs fatigue sooner. I don't know if power will be higher. I'm not sure for a good cardio guy this helps, but, we will have to see. Junior is pretty stoked to get the offer to use it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28068656

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28108650

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10712578

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28975517
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Old 03-13-18, 05:24 PM
  #11366  
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1st - thank you for doing that.
I read that performance improves. I guess inside the tent - yes. But it is not clear to me that was talking about on the road, back riding like everyone else, or in the hyperoxiaic (I made that word up) situation only/that is all they tested.
Seems like a good workout, although I don't know if it will build leg strength better than weights, but it is certainly stressing more than just the legs. It has value as it is new, cool fun and part of the trick getting youths to train is make it fun. But is it better than interval training or weight lifting in normal environment.

28108650 - These were 43 Ī 15 years, 12 women - I think that matters a bit. Age 28 to 58 - where are the youths? I think it matters. I'd expect the benefit to be higher for the older.
CONCLUSION:
In healthy subjects, hyperoxia increased maximal power output and endurance. ....


10712578 Also these were students - I assume lower 20s. It may matter.
"but exhaustion occurred at the same arterial proton and lactate concentrations"
I would think that. But with the conclusion below seems to get more power out of it.

And the last one. It consolidated publications.
CONCLUSION:
Acute exercise performance is increased with hyperoxia. An FiO2 ≥ 0.30 appears to be beneficial for performance, with a higher FiO2 being correlated to greater performance improvement in TTs, TTE, and dynamic muscle function tests. Exercise training and recovery supplemented with hyperoxic gas appears to have a beneficial effect on subsequent exercise performance, but small sample size and wide disparity in experimental protocols preclude definitive conclusions.

Last edited by Doge; 03-13-18 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 03-13-18, 06:34 PM
  #11367  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Just found these - same high price. Which are the ones we are talking about?
Features ? Inside Ride
Or these: Review: Elite Real E-Motion Rollers | road.cc ?
I was on elite-real-e-motion site and I saw rollers, but not the free motion ones.

This application will need a PM, but got a PowerTap hub for that. I think power numbers would tend to run a bit higher on a fixed machine in a more upright position vs a road bike, road position that moves under you and requires core and arms to stabilized. I'd rather have the numbers on the bike anyway. It will be interesting to compare in the tent (O2 concentrated) power to outside the tent on the same rollers. I guess - HR will just be lower and legs fatigue sooner. I don't know if power will be higher. I'm not sure for a good cardio guy this helps, but, we will have to see. Junior is pretty stoked to get the offer to use it.
I have the InsideRide E-Motion rollers, but I have Model F, not the latest Model H. There is a remote control option to add on to mine if I wanted.
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Old 03-13-18, 08:16 PM
  #11368  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
1st - thank you for doing that.
No problem - it's what I do.

Train-Low, sleep-high is pretty accepted as an optimal training situation. O2 enrichment is just training super-low.

The change in substrate utilization is interesting. It could/should allow for more training and could help with body composition.

HOX increased fat oxidation at 100 W by 52% from 3.41 kcal min-1 to 5.17 kcal min-1 (P ≤ 0.0001) with a corresponding reduction in carbohydrate oxidation.
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Old 03-13-18, 09:14 PM
  #11369  
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
No problem - it's what I do.

Train-Low, sleep-high is pretty accepted as an optimal training situation. O2 enrichment is just training super-low.

The change in substrate utilization is interesting. It could/should allow for more training and could help with body composition.

HOX increased fat oxidation at 100 W by 52% from 3.41 kcal min-1 to 5.17 kcal min-1 (P ≤ 0.0001) with a corresponding reduction in carbohydrate oxidation.
For junior, his cardio system is way in front of whatever you call the endurance system. And slightly in-front of what his legs can produce. That may be just miles in legs. So I didn't see that more O2 was going to make much difference. Body composition is not an issue (for him).

In general youths have have higher max HR at least, and more blood volume. So they have more O2 available. A test that has only age 28-58 I would expect to yield different results, vs an elite youth. The youth may have all the O2 they need with what is generally less lean muscle mass than the older. Anyway this will take months, but should be interesting.

And as stated above - there is a power meter to be used in this.
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Old 03-13-18, 09:21 PM
  #11370  
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Was supposed to do an easy ride today, but with 68 degree weather and a long car ride in front of me tomorrow, I got out for an hour with some strava segments thrown in ****s n giggles. Tied one KOM (PR'd by like 10 seconds on a 2min climb?) and dropped 30 seconds off a ~6 minute climb putting me in 4th and well within reach of taking it soon. Fun stuff and glad with how the legs felt going into Chico this weekend.
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Old 03-13-18, 10:39 PM
  #11371  
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Glad it rained today, because it meant skipping the Tuesday Night Worlds was easy. Last time I did it, I weighed 30 lbs more and had an ftp about 60 watts lower. Been looking forward to it all winter, but my body really needs to rest at least til the weekend.
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Old 03-14-18, 12:21 AM
  #11372  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Just found these - same high price. Which are the ones we are talking about?
Features ? Inside Ride
Or these: Review: Elite Real E-Motion Rollers | road.cc ?
I was on elite-real-e-motion site and I saw rollers, but not the free motion ones.

This application will need a PM, but got a PowerTap hub for that. I think power numbers would tend to run a bit higher on a fixed machine in a more upright position vs a road bike, road position that moves under you and requires core and arms to stabilized. I'd rather have the numbers on the bike anyway. It will be interesting to compare in the tent (O2 concentrated) power to outside the tent on the same rollers. I guess - HR will just be lower and legs fatigue sooner. I don't know if power will be higher. I'm not sure for a good cardio guy this helps, but, we will have to see. Junior is pretty stoked to get the offer to use it.
For a time they shared some tech. Elite marketer the system in Europe, Inside Ride dealt with the US only.

If you get them I highly recommend at least the wireless resistance unit. I have the smart trainer unit, too, but I havenít installed it in the year Iíve had it.

Iíve owned the Inside Ride rollers for 7 years. Best cycling purchase for someone forced to ride inside for material amounts of the year for whatever reason.
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Old 03-14-18, 12:25 AM
  #11373  
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6 View Post
Let's see, some examples. Threshold is right around 300W, give or take, weight right around 150-155 depending on the day. I was an avg of 243W and NP of 271W for the Valley of the Sun Crit. The "crit" I did this weekend where I played it pretty similarly, I had an Avg power of 231, NP of 268. Last weekends crit where I was in a solo breakaway for basically the entire race for a mechanical induced loss, I had avg of 266, NP of 286.

On the other hand, I beat someone in a time trial this weekend who put out ~50 more watts than me. Both on a time trial bike. I unperformed my threshold in that race too, but that's more due to aero positioning.

So these examples should just shout "it depends." @spectastic It's rare for me to see numbers close to my threshold in a lot of races because of time spent near zero in the pack. Draft aggressively, race aggressively. Use your power wisely when you have it. If it was a race of who has the highest threshold, we'd call it a a zwift race .
Fortunately TTs are decided by lowest time not highest power. I love the discussions post-race around the results sheets about how so-and-so rode 450 watts and should have won but got 15th.

As said above, many people either donít know what they are looking at (will quote things like NP instead of AP or exclude zeroes), or have a bad power meter, or havenít calibrated it ó or just ride like an idiot.

Should be VERY satisfying when you beat someone on LOWER power!
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Old 03-14-18, 12:32 AM
  #11374  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
@aaronmcd You know, you asked a question..."How does anyone even survive without cereal? Like what does breakfast consist of??"

I answered. I eat oatmeal (steel cut, generally these days).

In a wider framed answer...I'm personally baffled, troubled, by the general attitude people have about cooking. Eating is necessary and it's possible to make really good food simply. It's not a 33 or BF thing, by an overall societal issue dating back to the invention of the microwave, the increase in processed foods, and changes in marketing strategy. A large swath of the country stopped cooking as much and relied on the grocery store. As a result basic cooking know-how stopped being passed on to such a degree. Even today, the largest growing (and most profitable) section of markets is the prepared foods section. Convenience rules. The paradigm shift was that cooking was viewed formerly as a bonding issue, something fun to do, and with great tastes. At some point folks were sold the idea was it was undesirable. People would rather buy a roasted chicken, than roast a chicken. This has contributed to obesity and other health issues.

So yeah, circling back, there are healthier cold cereals. Grape nuts too. And if you want to eat them, go for it. But @topflightpro pretty much proved my point. Things are marketed as healthy, when often they're no better (sometimes even worse) than foods with a junk food stigma.

Generally speaking the healthiest thing folks can do is cook for themselves. Reason? When we do so we tend to use as few ingredients as possible. We lack additives and such.
There may be people working on solutions to these issues and improving healthy outcomes on a larger scale.

*cough*
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Old 03-14-18, 05:28 AM
  #11375  
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yesterday was undoubtedly a crap day of training, at least by recent standards. started with a ramp test, crapped out earlier than I wanted, so basically change in that. I think I could blame a bad night of sleep for not being totally up for it, but I doubt it. Later (after trying to clean up some of the massive snowfall) I tried to do a 2x15 that I've taken to doing on these test days, started at 285, but halfway through the first I could feel too much fatigue as a result of the earlier effort and the snow stuff, so bailed. Then did 45 mins z2 with a higher than usual HR. So overall blah lol Was hoping to come feeling really refreshed and ready to go with after a recovery week, oh well.
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