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Training Status??? (IV)

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Old 07-09-18, 06:58 PM
  #12101  
furiousferret
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Cool pics @Heathpack

That's a ton of cycling @hubcyclist! Sorry you didn't finish.
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Old 07-09-18, 07:13 PM
  #12102  
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Amazing photos.

Hermes the 2 times I rode in elevation I started noticing at ~7000 ft. Neither time with power meter so can't be sure. just muscles weren't in pain as usual due to not getting enough air to push that hard.

I rode on Saturday. After the 310 TSS Friday, I couldn't get out of recovery mode. Then after an hour or so I found a new hill trail and discovered 10+ minutes of threshold in me.

Did a nice 11 mile hike with my wife on Sunday with a lake swim and a beach waterfall.

I'm kinda with Wylde06. Not so much given up on bikes tho, but more seem to be growing out of spending my free hours of life in singular pursuit of fruitless competition with and against half-strangers accompanying 6 hours in traffic. Bikes for fun is a thing. But I look around and see the same guys in the mix at all the races and don't understand what the end goal is. I'm starting to get the impression that a lot of these guys aren't even struggling for dear life just to survive - like some of them actually get to play games with the other kids. I'm starting to think a lot of these guys drive 2 hours each way not even expecting to get dropped. I get the impression that a lot of these guys are somehow FASTER then when they were cat 4, while here I am quite a bit slower, and a much better wheel-sucker. I even hear guys complaining about "that guy" who wouldn't work in the break, and I just have to keep silent cuz maybe "that guy" happened to be a mortal human who was tired. I guess that's how a lot of cat 5s and 4s feel as well and why they drop out of the sport. The difference is they haven't done 230 races and don't yet know for sure how much it sucks to get beat on every weekend for 5 years straight. Anyways, I can at least still play in the 2/3 races depending on who shows up. And I may stick around here and there, might even come out to CCCX on Saturday, but I do wanna see what else life has to offer beyond the same 7 guys predictably riding faster than 13 other dudes, while another 9 dudes dangle desperately in the pack only to add numbers to the winner's scorecard.
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Old 07-09-18, 07:28 PM
  #12103  
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^ reality
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Old 07-09-18, 08:56 PM
  #12104  
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Very cool about the summit! Did you do any running and/or hiking to condition the legs?
Nope. Apparently being E3 pack fodder and cycling for 12 hours a week is enough. lol
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Old 07-09-18, 09:11 PM
  #12105  
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
very cool @Heathpack! I'm planning on renting a cabin with friends for a long weekend in Big Bear in a few weeks. They'll probably take the lift up each time, but I'm sure I'll mix it up .

We're staying right on the lake as well. Isn't there good riding around the lake as well? Are there trails that circumnavigate the lake that I can reach from our cabin? If so, awesome.

Any other tips for when I'm up there? I think I recall you posting about Big Bear MTB recently.
I have some friends that have a cabin up there, right near Snow Summit (where the MTB Park is), so I ride up there with them a reasonable amount.

My favorite trail in Big Bear is Skyline Trail. Thereís a number of ways to get up there but a good route from Snow Summit is to take the doubletrack road called Bristlecone east from the Snow Summit parking lot. From that climb Fern trail up to Skyline and then ride east to west on Skyline and get off at the intersection of Skyline, Pine Knot and Grandview. Descend the upper part of Pine Knot to Knickerbocker fireroad to Town Trail, which will dump you back into the Snow Summit parking lot. Itís a 15ish mile loop.

Pine Knot all the way to the bottom is also a really nice trail but it kicks you out a little distance from Snow Summit and youíd have to ride back to meet your friends on the road. Nice trail but not worth it in your context.

On the other side of the lake, in Fawnskin, I like Grout Bay and Hannah Flat as an out and back. You can ride there 20 min or so from the Snow Summit area, mostly on the bike path. But itís hotter and drier over there, not fun if you want to sleep in til 10.

I donít know much about the trails in the bike park. I climbed up Fern once and down Pirates & Fall Line (in the bike park). Those trails were so chewed up that I found it no fun. So Iíve never ridden in the park since.

You can ride around the lake on a road bike (I guess on a mtb too but that would be a slog). Thereís not really any shoulder on the roads though, and lots of vacation-headed drivers. I personally donít care much for the road riding options and would avoid it during prime summer season. Just too hairy.

Have fun, I love the mtb trails in Big Bear.

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Old 07-10-18, 09:22 AM
  #12106  
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@aaronmcd I stay at the same place as @Heathpack when I ski in Park City. The base elevation is 6900 feet. Day 1, I notice that my heart rate and urination increase. By day 3, I am in full altitude impact which may include headaches and trouble sleeping. By day 5, I am better and on day 7 on the plane home, I seem okay. Altitude adaptation takes 21 days so day 7 is just the start of improvement. And adaptation is different for everyone. Skiing, although aerobic, does not impact me that much due to cycling but I know that I am not in real skiing shape.

When I climbed Mount Lemmon, my power went to hell above 7000 feet such that the last 3 miles of the climb due to altitude and just being tired after climbing 23 miles.

We may need a BF "jack up" thread. I totally get where you are coming from. I have been racing and training consistently for 10 years. I love the feeling of being in race shape. Training and workouts are fun. I switched to timed events on the road and timed and team events at the track. I have a racing goal and I can structure training goals to meet my racing goal. If others show up and do not want to race hard...fine. They can cruise up the mountain or lallygag on the TT course. If I roll in last in the event, so be it but I kill it on the race. However, I have not found that competition that shows up for timed events lallygags. In fact, they seem to try really hard and improve. I would contrast that to mass start events where as you point out, may or may not be the case.

My fitness improves and I feel good about myself. If I do really well against competition all the better. The downside, if there is any, is that I am in my own head when racing and there are not a lot of timed road events. But that is okay as well since less racing frees up more time for training and other activities.

Also, I like the specialized equipment in time trials. I like to do harder efforts on the TT bike. So today, I am doing over / unders on Fiesta and some 30 second sprints in the aerobars. I could do climbing over unders but that seems too easy. I need adaptation breathing in the low aerodynamic position at reduced hip angles.

So there is always something to work for timed and team events on which is why I like racing goals, timed events and being in race shape. YMMV
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Old 07-10-18, 03:17 PM
  #12107  
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Totally failed a 4x1' interval workout this morning, first time attempting these really.

1st: 607 w
2nd: bailed 45 s in
3rd: 553 w
4th: bailed 30 s in.

Now I know why I save these kinds of efforts for unstructured rides like group rides and races. On the real though, I was feeling iffy with a pretty inactive last week that featured way too much drinking (4th, wedding, birthday party). Plus I'm a bit stressed at work and home so my head just isn't in the best spot.

Maybe I'll try it again someday. I have a perfect venue for them up this hill in Tierrasanta near work.

Then I got hit by a car on my way back to work. I was going straight and he turned right into me, taking out my rear wheel and sending me down. Fortunately I'm OK, just scrapes and minor bruises, but I called 911 and the SDPD anyway so I could get an incident number to backup my insurance claim. Guy was nice about it and even gave me a ride to work. Could have been a lot worse.
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Old 07-10-18, 05:11 PM
  #12108  
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@TMonk Ugg. Heal up fast.
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Old 07-10-18, 07:54 PM
  #12109  
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Hot and bad air quality still. So I skipped the race ride and did some over-under intervals on the trainer. May have my ftp set a bit low. Wasn't hard until the last interval and even then I probably could've pushed a bit harder. Gonna take it easy ther est of the week leading in to crusher.
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Old 07-10-18, 09:35 PM
  #12110  
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post

Then I got hit by a car on my way back to work. I was going straight and he turned right into me, taking out my rear wheel and sending me down. Fortunately I'm OK, just scrapes and minor bruises, but I called 911 and the SDPD anyway so I could get an incident number to backup my insurance claim. Guy was nice about it and even gave me a ride to work. Could have been a lot worse.
Damn. Glad you weren't hurt!

That must've been an awkward ride with the guy that hit you..
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Old 07-10-18, 10:35 PM
  #12111  
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Felt terrible today in the Worlds ride so I just sat in and didn't contribute and set a pr for the course (amazing how that works). I thought all this climbing at Tempo would help but I'm seriously lacking pop; for me nothing beats 30/15's for an all around training ride and I haven't done that in weeks. You get that pop, and your HR doesn't go down so you get an FTP gain as well.

@aaronmcd I don't recall what year it was, but I remember you were putting in hours upon hours of quality miles in the winter and I thought you'd kill it in race season and did. The one thing I've learned about cycling is its rare for racers to keep at that cadence of racing and training, especially after you hit that wall. Even if you don't hit the wall, personal life can smack you in the face and racing is done.

[dear diary warning]
In terms of the the racing vibe, this was going to be my last racing season if I didn't show any progress. Four years racing, and I've been last place more times than I could count. Its one thing finishing last if you're not trying, but I was averaging over 12+ hours a week. Some comments were made by some of the ex racers in our local ride that may or may not have been directed at me. All those things made me very obsessive about cycling but probably in an unhealthy way. I'd show up to group rides, not talk to anyone, and tell myself, 'None of those people like you, just keep your mouth shut and ride hard'.

Fast forward to this year and I fixed some physiological discrepancies, got asthma meds that worked, and raced 10 pounds lighter. I'm not winning anything but I'm relevant now which feels really good. I have a healthier attitude towards other cyclists as people are a lot nicer to you when you're not coming in last. They love you when you take hard 5 minute pulls up a hill. Other riders have told me that's bs and its all in my head, but those are all guys that have never been slow. I've slotted in 2019 as my year; I still have to build muscle that's atrophied and build muscle memory with a solid pedaling technique. That's probably going to take another 6 months.

I shouldn't put this much energy into bike racing because, no one cares. Other racers are too busy talking about themselves to care about you (like I'm doing here!) and your non racers friends are amazed you ride 200 miles a week and aren't in the Tour de France (despite explaining it to them yearly).

edit: Sorry to hear about the wreck @TMonk and glad it wasn't worse.

Last edited by furiousferret; 07-10-18 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 07-11-18, 08:47 AM
  #12112  
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@TMonk, glad you werenít majorly hurt. Hope you still get to do your MTB trip.

Re: all the talk on whether racing is worth it, funny I had that same thought process a few months ago. I have zero peers in my town- no one my age and gender- who race. My non-racing friends want me to ride with them and I often canít. My teammates (all younger, stronger, men) want me to ride with them but honestly is no fun just riding max effort all the time and getting dropped anyway and then rolling through the regroups to try to not slow down the show. Iím pretty independent and donít mind riding solo for the most part, but itís hard to feel like youíre missing out on fun social stuff a lot. I also increasingly like mountain biking but Iím so slow twitch that those little bursts of power you need to put out repeatedly while mountain biking really sap my legs for the TT work later in the week, so I have to keep the mtb under wraps a bit when Iím in full TT mode. Obviously itís a lot of work to train for these things and I give up a lot. Then with the USAC promoter-runs-the-races model, the races are always in danger of being cancelled or the dates changed and that really doesnít work for TT training. Racing out of USAC works better, but itís nice to have a big aspirational goal for the season, like States or Nationals, to punctuate a season. When you take the big USAC races off the table for logistical reasons, youíre just kind of left with a endless succession of races of equal ďvalueĒ, makes it harder to define a season.

Then what women race TTs in their 50s- physiologic freaks with tons of experience (who I realistically probably canít beat), clueless newbies (easy to beat), triathletes (water bottles in cages for a 20k TT!), crit specialists who think a TT will be a piece of cake (often beatable, not always), and oh yeah pro world champion TTists because most womenís TTs are open category. So winning canít necessarily be the goal, because Iím not gonna beat Amber Neben.

But in the end, I look at it like @Hermes does. I like TTing- the equipment choices, the quest for aeroness, the technical aspects of trying to ride a perfect TT for conditions on race day. I like the training process. I like that it also requires working on strength and flexibility. The whole package is a positive for me. Fortunately too, thereís a lot about TT that is intrinsic- thereís much more to be satisfied about than the external results of where you place in the race results.

So for now, Iím still in the game. Goal event next year will be National Senior Games because the date and location of that are fixed, and short of the entire thing being cancelled, I can build a season around that without being frustrated.
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Old 07-11-18, 08:57 AM
  #12113  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
I still have to build muscle that's atrophied and build muscle memory with a solid pedaling technique. That's probably going to take another 6 months.
Fixed gear and rollers. Helped me a lot back when I cared.
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Old 07-11-18, 09:05 AM
  #12114  
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Iíve taken it easy on the mtb the past two days because Iím going to try for an epic mtb loop up along the Wasatch Crest tomorrow. So I think Iím sitting at around 600 TSS for the week so far, TSB today is a little negative but Iím not riding today and think Iíll be rested enough to get it done tomorrow. The only thing which could scuttle the plan is thunderstorms, the Wasatch Crest trail is at 9500ish feet, above the tree line and weíve had some storms rolling through. Iíll just have to look at the weather forecast in the morning, and get an early start. Weíll see how it goes.

Anyway, easy-ish rides. A short loop on Monday, 4 mile climb and then a little cruise along rolling terrain and a fun descent. Yesterday, I took the gondola up at the next ski mountain over and then rode back to our condo. In theory an easy ride but the rocks were killing me, I still bad at anything technical. And some of it I have no idea whatís going to happen when I ride over it- a long section of trail, for example, was a huge rock slide of flat (flagstone-like) rocks. Whatís the bike gonna do when I ride over that? No idea (answer: roll over it all but slow down a lot, shoulda been in an easier gear). Whatever, though, thatís how you figure it out.

Around 25 miles of single track over the past two days, 2500 ft climbing, 200ish TSS. The trails here are a cross country dream. We are actually likely to sell our timeshare in Hilton Head and buy one at this exact location instead. So incredibly logistically easy to be able to ride right from the timeshare every day. Husband can sleep in, IĎm back most days by 11am and we can enjoy the rest of the day like normal people.





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Old 07-11-18, 09:22 AM
  #12115  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post

That's a ton of cycling @hubcyclist! Sorry you didn't finish.
Thanks! I was a little bummed to not have done the ultimate climb but it was great to have done what I did and it was just awesome riding through the mountains here. If I lived here I'd definitely be much stronger. Now I'm wondering whether riding at 5000ft elevation (and possibly over) will help me once I return to near sea level in New England lol

Did my last ride here yesterday, up the nearby cat 2 mountain (2nd highest in the country), turns out it's 40ish min climb and 1hr from our home (and only 30mins back lol). Easy way to get in some intervals at 90+ percent

Also, my descending straight up sucks compared to the locals, definitely not used to it (plus my rental bike didn't inspire a lot of confidence), but I did get better,
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Old 07-11-18, 11:43 AM
  #12116  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
. I get the impression that a lot of these guys are somehow FASTER then when they were cat 4, while here I am quite a bit slower, and a much better wheel-sucker. I even hear guys complaining about "that guy" who wouldn't work in the break, and I just have to keep silent cuz maybe "that guy" happened to be a mortal human who was tired. I guess that's how a lot of cat 5s and 4s feel as well and why they drop out of the sport. The difference is they haven't done 230 races and don't yet know for sure how much it sucks to get beat on every weekend for 5 years straight. .
But are you actually slower? Wasn't fudgy saying your numbers are better than his?

Based on everything I've seen you post over the last year or however long, it genuinely seems like your issues are not fitness related, but tactically related. Is that a possibility from your perspective?
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Old 07-11-18, 01:38 PM
  #12117  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
But are you actually slower? Wasn't fudgy saying your numbers are better than his?

Based on everything I've seen you post over the last year or however long, it genuinely seems like your issues are not fitness related, but tactically related. Is that a possibility from your perspective?
My numbers as a fresh cat 4 and have steadily gotten worse over a couple years as I upgraded. My 2-5 minute improved slightly the first year, which I believe helped me finally get out of cat 4, and also helped me get into some moves to escape the 3s. At least the threshold and sprint seem to have stopped getting worse. Even late last year/this year with burnout and lack of proper training, I seem to be as fast as last year (I just don't have as much endurance and need to go into races a good bit fresher). The benchmark climb (the one Fudgy always talks about) I did 18:03 on March 10, 2014. 30 or 40 times since then, last time I broke 20 minutes was July 2015. Most of my efforts since then are over 22 minutes (granted as part of a longer ride, but also mostly very hard efforts). I don't live down there anymore so I don't do that climb much nowadays.

I believe Fudgy was saying my numbers under some short time duration are better (under 2 minutes maybe?) but that isn't saying much. Especially when my best strength is 5' power and that still isn't good enough to survive a 5 minute climb more than once in a race.

I am 100% positive it is fitness and/or speed related (as I've said before, a slight aero or weight disadvantage can easily offset a 50 watt fitness advantage). I can't believe it is tactically related. I feel like I've done enough races to know how to stay sheltered, anticipate wind changes, accelerations etc. If it's a super technical crit I'll have trouble (get dropped) but that's only once all the accelerations add up to way over threshold NP over the course of 10 or 12 minutes. And this is only ones with a hill or very tight hairpin where everyone is FORCED to accelerate by physics (vs technique). In other races I'll hang in there. Maybe leave my mark on the race in the last 5 or 10 minutes to prove I'm somebody lol. But as I've mentioned, without a sprint or threshold, it just isn't possible to do well. And while I could be content sitting in and chasing someone for the team with 2 to go in the office park crit, it's frustrating to see everyone get faster and talk about getting faster as they get more years under their belt, and that just never happened to me. I started racing, got up to speed in a few months, and stayed there or got slower. I've tried the periodize thing, I've tried the huge miles thing, I've tried the excess rest thing, I've tried intervals, group rides, z2 base miles, z3/4 base miles, it's all the same. Same weight, same or slightly less power.
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Old 07-11-18, 01:42 PM
  #12118  
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I did the group ride last night and got dropped. But I shouldn't feel bad, Phipps also missed the group ride away from us in groups of 2 or 3. Phipps and I worked to bridge up. We made it, Phipps kept going and I got dropped again lol. Btw, he provides almost zero draft. It's freaky how fast he goes for how little draft he provides. Some cat 4 rode off the front and made it the 2nd fastest park ride in the history of Strava. 20 minutes at 110%. Even with my 8 minute rest, NP was over FTP for the 40 minute ride.

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Old 07-11-18, 02:29 PM
  #12119  
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Got back on the trainer for the fist time since April yesterday (I mostly ride outside when the weather is nice); 45 minutes, 70TSS, .97IF, and NP of 291.

Rode 32.5 miles into work mostly Z1/Z2 today. Might take a shorter route home.
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Old 07-11-18, 02:59 PM
  #12120  
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Yesterday anaerobic capacity (2', 1', 30" repeats). Tempo today.
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Old 07-12-18, 07:23 AM
  #12121  
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@TMonk, I'm glad the crash wasn't worse.
@aaronmcd, from what I recall, you don't follow any plan or structure. You just do what you feel like doing when you feel like doing it, and you may be doing too much. Also, you've complained regularly on here about your performances, and people with a lot more experience than me (e.g. rubik) and a lot more knowledge of you personally (i.e. fudgy and mattm) have offered advice and suggestions that you routinely discount. I'm not sure what you are looking for?

I know we all go through ups and downs in our riding and training. We have good years and bad. And most of us will end up advancing to the point that we are pack fodder. For some, that's Cat 4/5s. For others, it's 1/2s. For others, it's racing against Pros. If you're not having fun, take a break. If you find you like just riding and not racing, then don't race. If you want to keep racing and you want to improve, maybe consider finding a coach who can help you a bit to find structure, regain the fitness and strength you feel you've lost and improve your efforts. (I don't want to reopen the coaching discussion with this comment, but you may be at a point when an outside perspective that you actually follow helps.)
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Old 07-12-18, 08:15 AM
  #12122  
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^
thanks topflight. And @mattm the ride wasn't too awkward haha, the guy was nice and apologetic from the start.

Ya at some point everyone will plateau. My suggestion is at whatever level is that, join a team that has lots of participation and (ideally) camaraderie. That's what keeps me coming back. Racing with a team plan doesn't always work, but when it does, it's pretty awesome. At the very least I almost always feel like I have some level of positive contribution to my bro's result, and that feels great.
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Old 07-12-18, 12:15 PM
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caloso
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
^
thanks topflight. And @mattm the ride wasn't too awkward haha, the guy was nice and apologetic from the start.

Ya at some point everyone will plateau. My suggestion is at whatever level is that, join a team that has lots of participation and (ideally) camaraderie. That's what keeps me coming back. Racing with a team plan doesn't always work, but when it does, it's pretty awesome. At the very least I almost always feel like I have some level of positive contribution to my bro's result, and that feels great.
Exactly right.
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Old 07-12-18, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
Yesterday anaerobic capacity (2', 1', 30" repeats). Tempo today.
Too funny, that's the exact workout I did the other day. Wynne -4 on TrainerRoad.
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Old 07-12-18, 05:36 PM
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Vacation volume riding chapter three: up to around 800 TSS for eight days of riding, I am currently that delicious type of cycling tired.

I got my Wasatch Crest ride in today and it was possibly the most beautiful ride I’ve ever done. Right up there with an epic ride I did with @Racer Ex on the Tahoe Rim trail.

I went to bed last night thinking the ride was off, thunderstorms in the forecast but I got up early anyway to check the forecast. Lucky break, forecast was for perfect weather and that’s what I got.

So I climbed up 8 miles of single track to the Wasatch Crest Trail and rode 7 miles of that over to the next ski resort, descended over there and then rode back on the bike path. Lots of riding at high altitude (9800 ft), which is killer for me. But so worth it: riotous wildflowers all over the mountain right now, dense pine forests, open aspen forest, alpine meadows, epic views. Overall 22 miles of single track with 3300 ft climbing (felt like way more).

We leave tomorrow for Bryce Canyon NP so no bikes again until Monday unless I go out for a wee ride in the morning. Right now I’m planning on it, we’ll see if I actually get up early and get out.




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