aaronmcd

But 2x20 ARE the "harder stuff"!

VO2 only hurts a for like 3 minutes at a time. FTP hurts from minute 9 on the first one and minute 3 on the second! And minute 1 on the 3rd and 4th, if they exist.

Idk if you do VO2 on hills, but it helps a bit when you hit the hill and have no choice but to dive in.

But I have noticed the huge variation in what I can do, and it's partially mental...
...Like today. I did 353 first one - hard. 349 second one - hard. 353 third one - hard. Etc. Suddenly there is a cyclist up ahead on the 6th and last effort... 390.

tetonrider

does it ever make you wonder that threshold hurts you a couple minutes into an effort (when warm)?

tetonrider

badminton's a cool sport!

i grew up thinking it was a pretty lame BBQ type of thing. got to play it a bit competitively (along with squash, which is SO much better than racketball) in australia. loved it!

Enthalpic

For short intervals you really have to focus on the interval at hand and not the whole set together. Your body has powerful subconscious pacing mechanisms -the central regulator- and will limit muscle activation if "it" knows many more intervals are coming. I assure you that if the experimenter says "go all-out for 20s" you will start faster than if the experimenter says "go all-out until I blow the horn."

It is possible that deception is required to maximize human performance. Coaches lying and saying "just one more" is a start but broken clocks, treadmills, power-meters, etc could also be used.

Effects of deception on exercise performance: implications for determinants of fatigue in humans. - PubMed - NCBI

Anticipatory pacing strategies during supramaximal exercise lasting longer than 30 s. - PubMed - NCBI

aaronmcd

Well NOW it's making me wonder! Do you think it should not hurt a few minutes into a second or third 20? Sometimes at the end of a long ride I can barely do 80-85%.

Sometimes I'll do 105% for 20, other times 92% is tough for the first effort.

tetonrider

keep in mind i don't know your training, your goals, your physiology, etc., etc.

assuming you're in an appropriately fresh state for hard training and there are no weird external issues, my concern would be that someone is pushing too hard for threshold if they're in the hurt box after a couple minutes at threshold, even after 20' of threshold + some rest.

of course, some people have a little weaker disposition for this stuff (we are talking about *F*TP, though, not LT or MLSS), but that does not sound at all like you from the bit i have read.

also...multiple 20's at 105% and then pain at threshold a couple minutes in? maybe there is more here than you are letting on.

hack

Local race ride tonight in some hot weather (100+). Second week in a row where some 10 min into the 20 min crux of the ride that I've become so nauseated I had to sit up. The pace isn't over the top and I'm inclined to think it's related to the heat, but will have to wait a few more weeks for things to cool off before confirming that.

canuckbelle

Are you using ice socks?

canuckbelle

Cool ^_^ It's a sport where people have to have a very high skill just to realize the fitness requirements of high level players. If I step on a court with someone who merely knows how to hit somewhat decently, I'll blow them off 21-0 and they won't even break a sweat. But the fitness requirements to compete are vast: we run 2x as far in 1/4 of the time of a high level tennis match. The training requirements of badminton are *VERY* similar to cycling. A national level player friend sees my cycling legs and says, 'Yup, can see the badminton in them.' The funny thing is that my right quad is bigger than my left (because I'm right handed = right foot forward), but my left hamstring is bigger than my right (because that leg initiates most movements for right handed players). We also think it's why my left knee is more stable in my pedal stroke (from a Retul fitting): the stronger hamstring keeps the knee during the stroke more vertical. Cool stuff.

It's also how I got used to interval training, since most badminton training is going 100% for 10-20sec, with 30sec of active rest.

globecanvas

In the morning, 3 hours of zone 2 riding around, showing a visiting friend the area. In the evening, a 2 hour hammerfest that was harder than usual because our fearless leader, who lives to close gaps, wasn't there. I didn't think the earlier ride would cost me on the later one but it sure did, I was dying. 250 TSS all together and today I feel like I rode a century, which I suppose I just about did.

mike868y

ice socks saved my life in chicago

if you're failing at your harder intervals that often maybe your target wattage is too high? or you're doing high intensity stuff too often (see "mental energy" discussion above). just my $0.02, but I'm pretty soft mentally with high intensity intervals and have a better hit rate than that.

scheibo

harder than just riding around, but 90-105% FTP seems "less hard" by definition than 105-120% FTP. I do VO2 on hills most of them time (because it results in probably 10% higher power for me on average), but I also like to do most of my workouts on hills, including threshold intervals, so I'm not sure it really makes the VO2+ stuff any easier. Maybe it just comes down to power profiles - you're probably more comfortable with VO2 efforts because your body is more suited to them (which I find funny, because I identify as a miler when it comes to running but seem to be more into 20min-1hr long efforts on the bike)

Yeah, my hit rate is pretty garbage. Its entirely possible I'm not going into the workouts fresh enough, or at least not mentally fresh. I think maybe trying to do VO2 stuff every second week as opposed to *trying* to do them every week and only *succeeding* every second week might improve my ratio.

As for target wattage - I tend to be a bit of a headcase with respect to hitting paces or target wattages and prefer to do workouts based on 'feel' than on what my watch or power meter says because I get stressed out. I'm thinking of maybe looking at my PM for the first repeat in a set, making sure I stick under the certain wattage and then doing the rest based on feel might yield better results. We'll see.

TheKillerPenguin

When I'm aiming for upping watts I do vo2 uphill, when I'm aiming to practice putting out vo2 in race scenarios I do em on varying terrain. Both have their place IMO. Also in general time in zone is better than smashing a couple of efforts and then having to stop. 25min @ 115% is better than 7min @ 120%. Finally, it's not like a rule of thumb but if you find you're bad at a certain kind of interval then it may be the type of interval you want to do more of since it may be a weakness. It makes training less fun but it makes you more well rounded.

hubcyclist

90mins on zwift "racing" .90 IF

mike868y

yesterday: 3.5 hours with 10*1' (ok, really only 9.5, I wimped out on #10). despite two easy days, I was still feeling the effects of tokeneke and the numbers weren't great.

today: 4.5 hours with 3*8.5' right in the middle. same exact wattage on the first two intervals and they were both tied with my PR. i was happy about that until i realized i would need to do that number as my FTP to hang in P/1/2 road races.

~490 TSS in two days. i'm going to pedal so slowly tomorrow.

shermo

I've been told that, physiologically speaking, people respond better to training their strengths. If you're all slow twitch, you will get the best benefits from volume. If you're Type II you'll get a bigger benefit from including higher intensity stuff.

I get that you want to eliminate your weaknesses for race scenarios if it's causing you to lose races.

furiousferret

My leg finally feels like it can handle real efforts, but this is a dangerous time. At some point you have to test it, but if its too soon it tears again. I have to tell myself the year is done, our last race is Sept 15, but at 45 TSB, it's a pipe dream that's only going to get myself hurt again.

scheibo

I definitely believe in the value of L5+ work and training one's limiters (including riding flat vs. hills), which is why I try to force myself to do it, but that doesn't make it any more pleasant . The exact percentage might be part of it - I think 105-112% is fairly doable, but I usually seem to try to target the 113-120% range which might be why I have so much trouble with them.

hack

Thursday night river ride with real pro cameo (Evan Huffman). He was fast and made us look really slow.

mattm

Was he the guy who did Colavita?

Some Rally pro dude was there, and pulled one of the pro-est moves I've ever seen: we're strung out in a cross wind, he's 3rd wheel and sits up w/ no hands, takes off his helmet, adjusted his hair or something, and put it back on.

He never broke pace, all while we're groveling in said cross wind. Pro!

mattm

35 mins of rollers for me; just maintaining.

hack

I had to look up the Colavita results. Different guys, same team though. Sounds like a pro move "hey guys, does my hair look good?"

Today he teamed up with one of the other local former pros, traded pulls and rode away from the rest of us in a head/cross wind.

hack

Missed this ... no ice socks. I wonder if they'd survive to the climb (its about 40 min into the ride). It's worth a shot though.

canuckbelle

They don't have to survive to the climb per se to make a difference by keeping your core temperature down by the time you get to it.

topflightpro

A former teammate of mine was once the Canadian National TT champion, and raced on a small pro team in Europe as well as for the Canadian National team. He would frequently do stuff like that in the middle of a race or hammer ride. I think I even saw him take off knee warmers without missing a beat.