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Training Status??? (IV)

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Training Status??? (IV)

Old 08-19-16, 07:31 AM
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I'm at 163.0 this morning, down from 170, just 8lbs to go.

a bunch of people I know or am acquainted with locally are doing the Mt Washington hill climb tomorrow. I do not envy them. I think, if I did the online calculator right, it would take me about 94mins at 240w.
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Old 08-19-16, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd
But 2x20 ARE the "harder stuff"!

VO2 only hurts a for like 3 minutes at a time. FTP hurts from minute 9 on the first one and minute 3 on the second! And minute 1 on the 3rd and 4th, if they exist.

Idk if you do VO2 on hills, but it helps a bit when you hit the hill and have no choice but to dive in.

But I have noticed the huge variation in what I can do, and it's partially mental...
...Like today. I did 353 first one - hard. 349 second one - hard. 353 third one - hard. Etc. Suddenly there is a cyclist up ahead on the 6th and last effort... 390.
Vo2 hurts, but they're over quickly. Do the subsequent FTP intervals hurt *and* you can finish them at same wattage?

For me, if I do FTP ints and I've over on average just a bit, or the effort has little spikes above FTP, they'll be tougher to finish, but I think that's to be expected.
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Old 08-19-16, 07:45 AM
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Not counting actual races, intervals that have paid the most dividends for me this summer are 4x15 sweet spot, except you start em with 1.5min vo2, do 1.5min vo2 in the middle, and end with 1.5min vo2. The sweet spot gives just about as much benefit as FTP stuff but also lets you do the vo2 on top of it. About as painful as 10x30AWC but last way longer...
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Old 08-19-16, 08:04 AM
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Reading the comments of @aaronmcd and @tetonrider above makes me wonder what other people feel during the evolution of TT intervals? I am new to racing (just finished 1st year), only race TTs and have been moderately successful at it. Of course being more-than-moderately successful is the goal, so I'm curious about all aspects of it, including what goes through people's heads during training (and race) efforts.

For me, I would not describe a 20 min 105% effort as painful and, unless I'm having a bad day, two of them is zero problem. (I work with a coach & can't recall ever doing more than 2, although I occasionally get assigned longer TT intervals- 30, 40 or rarely 60-70 min, obviously the longer ones are ridden at threshold not above.)

My description of a 2 x 20 @ 105% workout would go something like:
Interval 1: First 8 min feel good, somewhere around the 8 min mark I start to think things like "only 12 min left," then the rest of it requires concentration to stay on the power numbers, I notice my legs and they feel tired but I know I can finish it, last 3 min no problem to pour it on as needed to make the target.

Interval 2: Takes concentration right from the very beginning, I notice my legs, my breathing etc right away and the whole interval is like that, I have to consciously stay on the pedals all through the pedal stroke, take note of my resp pattern & adjust effort continuously, my legs feel tired but not really painful. But without concentration/focus, I'd find myself 10-15% under target. I'll have something left in the tank for a final 1-2 min push if necessary but it will be really hard & I know my best chance of making the power target on the 2nd is to not get behind.

For much of the first interval, the effort is automatic. Towards the end of the first & for all of the second interval, the effort is deliberate.

I would not describe a 105% effort as painful as much as I'd call it difficult. But I think I don't take it to the extent of being painful and that's got to be where the difference lies between being a moderately successful time trialist and a successful time trialist. Probably my physical ability is already there, I just have to figure out how to cross that line mentally, to take it up a notch until its painful.

So I'm curious as to how other people feel doing these types of intervals- races or workouts.
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Old 08-19-16, 08:17 AM
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If I'm fresh they are cake. End of a block they can be a bit haggard. As long as the numbers are right I try not to worry about how they feel
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Old 08-19-16, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
If I'm fresh they are cake. End of a block they can be a bit haggard. As long as the numbers are right I try not to worry about how they feel
I also have learned it doesn't matter how I feel- might as well always just give em a whirl. I could feel tired, unfocused, uninterested etc going in and none of that necessarily matters, I can probably still get it done.

But I think my question is really that I hear people moan about how painful these efforts are & I just wouldn't describe them as painful per se. Makes me wonder if I'm not pushing myself enough.

So would you describe 20 min @ 105% as "painful"? Or is that just one of those things- some people describe something difficult as being painful without it literally being painful.
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Old 08-19-16, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack
Interval 1: First 8 min feel good, somewhere around the 8 min mark I start to think things like "only 12 min left," then the rest of it requires concentration to stay on the power numbers, I notice my legs and they feel tired but I know I can finish it, last 3 min no problem to pour it on as needed to make the target.

Interval 2: Takes concentration right from the very beginning, I notice my legs, my breathing etc right away and the whole interval is like that, I have to consciously stay on the pedals all through the pedal stroke, take note of my resp pattern & adjust effort continuously, my legs feel tired but not really painful. But without concentration/focus, I'd find myself 10-15% under target. I'll have something left in the tank for a final 1-2 min push if necessary but it will be really hard & I know my best chance of making the power target on the 2nd is to not get behind.

For much of the first interval, the effort is automatic. Towards the end of the first & for all of the second interval, the effort is deliberate.

I would not describe a 105% effort as painful as much as I'd call it difficult.

This really doesn't match my experience. 20 minutes @ 105% starts being genuinely painful for me around 6-7 minutes, right at the end of what a long vo2max interval would be. The last 7-8 minutes are gasping agony. A second interval is basically out of the question unless I've had a full 10 minutes or more of recovery.

I mean, to me, 105% means there is a vo2max component to the interval, and that component is not something I can comfortably (or painlessly) maintain for 20 minutes.

Last edited by globecanvas; 08-19-16 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 08-19-16, 08:41 AM
  #5933  
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Originally Posted by Heathpack
I also have learned it doesn't matter how I feel- might as well always just give em a whirl. I could feel tired, unfocused, uninterested etc going in and none of that necessarily matters, I can probably still get it done.

But I think my question is really that I hear people moan about how painful these efforts are & I just wouldn't describe them as painful per se. Makes me wonder if I'm not pushing myself enough.

So would you describe 20 min @ 105% as "painful"? Or is that just one of those things- some people describe something difficult as being painful without it literally being painful.
well, 20min @ 105% is roughly what your 20min max should be, no? I'd think that should be painful unless you used a something different than 20min power * .95 for calculating ftp. It sounds like you guys used a different way to determine that stuff though.
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Old 08-19-16, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
well, 20min @ 105% is roughly what your 20min max should be, no? I'd think that should be painful unless you used a something different than 20min power * .95 for calculating ftp. It sounds like you guys used a different way to determine that stuff though.
Well I guess that I don't really consider 60 min at 100% to be painful exactly. Sometimes my HR data suggests that I could not do more, sometimes it suggests I could have maybe gone a little harder. When I read people's descriptions of riding an FTP test, it always seems to me that they are exaggerating the misery of it, expect for the part about feeling like you might vomit at the end, that I can completely relate to. So maybe I guess based on perception of effort that my FTP is set conservatively but based on HR data it does not seem to be. And it's not like we don't have a lot of data at this point, I probably have 7 or 8 60min 100% TT intervals in the past 10ish months, between training efforts and races.

So I wonder if I'm an outlier in my perception of it vs just a newby doing it wrong.
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Old 08-19-16, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack
So I wonder if I'm an outlier in my perception of it vs just a newby doing it wrong.

Given that you apparently don't consider wanting to vomit to be painful, then I'l go with the outlier interpretation.
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Old 08-19-16, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
This really doesn't match my experience. 20 minutes @ 105% starts being genuinely painful for me around 6-7 minutes, right at the end of what a long vo2max interval would be. The last 7-8 minutes are gasping agony. A second interval is basically out of the question unless I've had a full 10 minutes or more of recovery.

I mean, to me, 105% means there is a vo2max component to the interval, and that component is not something I can comfortably (or painlessly) maintain for 20 minutes.
Hmm. I have no idea. I routinely do them with 5 min rest in between. They have gotten easier over time, as has all work around threshold. It used to be as if my brain would try to shut me down and now it has learned nothing bad is going to happen if I stay there. Maybe it is just my physiology or the way my brain works or just semantics in the way we're describing things.
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Old 08-19-16, 09:09 AM
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Do you use FTP as based off one of your full 1hr efforts? If that's the case I could see that being significantly lower than a 20min max test, which might explain why 105% doesn't make you want to die.

I don't think I could concentrate hard enough to do 1hr full-gas. This kills the tkp.
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Old 08-19-16, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
My leg finally feels like it can handle real efforts, but this is a dangerous time. At some point you have to test it, but if its too soon it tears again. I have to tell myself the year is done, our last race is Sept 15, but at 45 TSB, it's a pipe dream that's only going to get myself hurt again.
That's good on both counts - you're getting better, but also realize not to push it this late in the season.
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Old 08-19-16, 09:20 AM
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For me, any efforts longer than 5 min. are painful. Even sweetspot, which is below FTP. I'm not sure if it's physical or mental, or probably both, but I struggle mightily with longer efforts.

It's really kind of frustrating and something I'm actively working on. I can do shorter than 5 min. intervals all day.
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Old 08-19-16, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
For me, any efforts longer than 5 min. are painful. Even sweetspot, which is below FTP. I'm not sure if it's physical or mental, or probably both, but I struggle mightily with longer efforts.

It's really kind of frustrating and something I'm actively working on. I can do shorter than 5 min. intervals all day.
Same for me ... I could be doing 20 min intervals at tempo and it feels just as miserable to me as 105%. I also tried to work on it, but that made me hate it even more.
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Old 08-19-16, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
Do you use FTP as based off one of your full 1hr efforts? If that's the case I could see that being significantly lower than a 20min max test, which might explain why 105% doesn't make you want to die.

I don't think I could concentrate hard enough to do 1hr full-gas. This kills the tkp.
Well I don't personally set my FTP. Originally it was set off of a 40 min test which even brand new to training wasn't that big of a deal to me. The decision to ask me to ride a 40 min test was not arbitrary, it was based off my coach (who was new to me then) reviewing old data and deciding that was the most appropriate duration. He kind of wanted to start with a 1 hour test but he was a little reluctant, I think was afraid I would not be able to execute it well due to inexperience.

Since then, he is I'm sure basing numbers off the entirety of the data set & race efforts. I did four 40k TTs from March-June last year, so the 1 hour data is there. It's hard for me to do a training effort 60 min at 100%, I tend to slip into the 95-97% range without the race motivation.

I have always had the ability to hold a power number for a really long time, even without being trained to those types of efforts. So maybe it's just physiology.
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Old 08-19-16, 10:38 AM
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Cool party trick!
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Old 08-19-16, 01:06 PM
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woo my ctl cracked 70 today
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Old 08-19-16, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
This really doesn't match my experience. 20 minutes @ 105% starts being genuinely painful for me around 6-7 minutes, right at the end of what a long vo2max interval would be. The last 7-8 minutes are gasping agony. A second interval is basically out of the question unless I've had a full 10 minutes or more of recovery.

I mean, to me, 105% means there is a vo2max component to the interval, and that component is not something I can comfortably (or painlessly) maintain for 20 minutes.
Yeah this matches my perception as well. I've never even attempted 2 x 20 @ 105% in a single workout; and if I actually did it, that would be an indicator that my FTP is set a little low. Big difference between 100% and 105% if FTP is set accurately, at least for me. And that's coming from someone who considers above-threshold efforts to be a strength, not a weakness.
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Old 08-19-16, 01:38 PM
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holding 230-250 w for 1.5 hr yesterday
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Old 08-19-16, 01:57 PM
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easy pokemon catching spin on the mtb yesterday. Less than 5 miles.

then a trip to the ER because of an infected spider bite causing what looks like lymphangitis (red line going from the bite down to my armpit).

2 hrz z2ish with a short sweet spot opener today, then racing my first e3 race tomorrow. Hopefully the antibiotics/infection don't screw me up too much.
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Old 08-19-16, 02:14 PM
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Damn what kind of spider??
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Old 08-19-16, 02:29 PM
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poisonous
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Old 08-19-16, 02:52 PM
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Those are the worst kind of spiders!
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Old 08-19-16, 02:57 PM
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I didn't see it bite me, just woke up with two bite marks on my shoulder, the red line developed the next day. I don't think it was venomous, just a bacterial infection

Have yet to see if I've gained any superpowers.
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