topflightpro

There's a difference between zeros when riding and zeros when not riding. If you do two crits in one day, does the hour in between count toward your TSS?

I'm specifically referring to track workouts too, where changing gears requires taking off chainrings and swapping cogs.

jsk

The fact that the zeros are still data doesn't mean that they are meaningful data that should contribute to TSS. Sorry but I just don't see how stopping for a restroom break during a long ride should result in a higher TSS that if I did the ride non-stop? Are you saying it should? If so I'd love to hear the explanation for why it should...

TMonk

put in a big weekend on the bike, ~8 hrs total, starting to get back into shape. Took yesterday off, then headed out this morning for a (mostly) easy hour then to test my legs up a few short (~4-5 min) climbs.

Instead of feeling tired and sore my legs were alive, and ready for an action. Smashed one of them (Presidio) at a power I might aim for during an interval when I was in top form back in July, great sign.

I'm stoked to get up early tomorrow for 3 hrs before work, on the road by 5:30. Let's do this!

rubiksoval

Agreed. I stop the clock every time I stop. Stop signs. Red lights. Gear adjustments. Whatever.

furiousferret

FTP Test....and one minute in my derailleur snapped.

revchuck 

Too much power!

Ttoc6

2 hours. 5x15 at sweetspot. Except I'm 100% sure my ftp has increased from where I assessed now, so I'm pretty sure it wasn't actually sweetspot. Need to bump it.

Today was chili day at work. So I ate a lot of food. Most of it bad for me. Oh well. People liked my chili so I'll call it a win.

furiousferret

I wish!

scheibo

thats just how TSS is defined. so yeah, I am saying your TSS should be higher if you take a break because its a broken metric. i dont think your *actual* stress should be higher if you take a break. however, all that really matters for load tracking IMO is consistency with itself, and all of this is hardly an exact science, so removing zeros will be fine for comparing to the rest of your data, just not for bragging on message boards

jsk

Whether or not TSS is broken is a different argument. Your original post said that the PC8 was "throwing away data" implying that there was value in keeping the stopped time in the recorded activity to count towards TSS. Your arguments here do not support that assertion IMHO.

Just to be clear, we're not talking about the "include/exclude zeros" option in the power meter settings on some head units (which would cause power-related metrics to not include time spent coasting). We're talking about the auto-pausing (or manual pausing) of an activity when you stop. Two very different things IMHO, and for me pausing the activity at stops provides a more consistent metric.

mattm

+1

The only zeroes that should count are when you're coasting.

The whole argument is overly academic.. I guess it's the off-season tho!

tetonrider

PC7, PC8, Edge 500, Edge 820, LYC...

What the head unit shows is a bit irrelevant as few people sue the head unit for things like calculating TSS and showing it's contribution to a PMC. What matters more is how one's software handles the gaps as they get imported.

At either end, the argument gets absurd:
* If you put a foot down for one second, should that zero be tossed? Of course not.
* If you ride for 3h, then take a break for 21h, then ride for 3 more, should you count the zeroes? Of course not.

The answer lies somewhere in the middle.

TSS is inherently a bit silly because while we really hope that 100 TSS is comparable from you (anyone) to me, the reality is that it's not; moreover, 100 of TSS for me today is not necessarily comparable to 100 TSS from last year or even yesterday.

E.g., If I rode 3h at a noodling pace, that might be 100 TSS, whereas a sprint workout might take me to 100 TSS in a completely different way that has far different implications for recovery and physiological adaptation.

Figuring out metrics that show post-workout impact and recovery status is, I'd argue, much more meaningful for most and yet many fixate on TSS and CTL.

TSS is useful for bragging rights.

Who won the Training Competition thread for October, by the way?

furiousferret

I agree with @tetonrider. My commute probably has about 30 stoplights and 30 stop signs (I do run them if no ones around) so I'd get carpal tunnel hitting the stop button all the time. Some of those lights you have to have your sprint leg strong cus the light is so fast a bike can't make it through 4 lanes in time. I don't have time to hit buttons and auto pause has its issues as well so I just leave it on and hopefully the software can figure it out.

Additionally, in years past I've also forgotten to hit start after a coffee stop and lost 40+ miles.

In a week I have no idea how much 'free' TSS I'm getting, but it can't be much.

tetonrider

This was always a small beef I had with Garmin devices (I've owned MANY over the years and have an 820 and 1030 sitting here on my desk): every user that I've ever talked with has lost data this way, and it's a way that makes the rider feel stupid.

As an example, I've been warming up or just moving a bit before an event. There's power to the pedals. I get the warning about starting recording, but I dismiss it. Maybe I'm just turning the cranks to check the shifting. Unfortunately, the event starts and since I've dismissed that warning I don't see it again. The display shows me those metrics and looks just like it does when it is recording data.

Yeah, we're amateurs and maybe a bit of lost data doesn't *really* matter in the grand scheme of things, though it sure is frustrating.

Easy solution: Record all the time.

It was initially something that endeared me to the SRM PC7: If the rider is moving (speed, power, cadence) the device records. Why not? It's easy to throw the data out later and storage is cheap.

scheibo

Consider 1h @ 300W vs. 120x(30s @300W / 30s @ 0W) vs. 120x(30s @300W / 10 min @ 0W).

Also: what makes coasting data valuable but not time when youre waiting at a light? Is 0W while sitting on a bike worth contributing to training stress vs. 0W standing at a light? Also, why privilege 0W? If I'm glass cranking at 1W (only possible in a world with spherical cows, so w/e, use 20W or 50W) what makes that fundamentally more important data than 0W?

A head unit should be able to not record data when stopped if it treats it as a trivial data compression optimization (no point in *storing* 0s), but a formula for training load should be taking them into account.

scheibo

this. also, Fudgy's weekly TSS which started this whole thing isn't actually using the same definition of TSS either, because it reduces stretches of <3km/h > 3 minutes to 3 min, so its only comparable to other CA user's "TSS" (if its comparable at all - different power profiles, poor power meter calibration or FTP measurements, etc, make it kind of moot)


definitely not me

scheibo

I'm smart enough to avoid holy wars on tabs vs. spaces and vi vs. emacs, but I always take the bait on recording 0s. go figure.

rubiksoval

TSS is based on NP, which in and of itself is a broken metric. Certain workouts and races can vastly inflate TSS because NP can ridiculously high.

When you can do 3 minutes of all out riding with another 57 minutes of z1/z2 and still get 100 (or more) TSS points...well, that's silliness in the context of the normal usage of that metric.

Since you can't meaningfully track real life loads (which are far more significant and can have a far bigger impact than training loads), then the whole load thing itself is a bit of a farce unless you're a pro and your training load essentially is the only physical/mental/emotional stress in your life.

Bigger trends can be useful, but at the end of the day, so can sitting back for a second and thinking "I'm fried, why not chill?"...

TSS and NP are outdated, archaic concepts, in my opinion.

Ygduf

tss and category numbers aren't even correlated. you're thinking CTL.

sarcasm, to be clear

Ygduf

tss is the measure I use, so I used it to communicate my training status in the training status thread. no more.

anyone who thinks tss garners any bragging rights fails to recognize the inverse relationship with strength, ride difficulty, and resultant tss output.

FWIW I was tired enough that I actually got dropped from my tuesday ride break on a 2% grade. Tired and fat enough, anyway.

TheKillerPenguin

I measure my rides in TWSS, which IMO is a more accurate measurement than standard TSS. My typical TWSS for a hard workout is roughly 69, give or take a few.

mattm

TABS OBVIOUSLY

lol j/k, I use unicode spaces for everything!

TheKillerPenguin

you madman!

furiousferret

So that's why my upgrade requests keep getting denied.

TMonk

lawl