Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

USAC release

Old 05-08-17, 11:18 AM
  #76  
Spoonrobot 
Senior Member
 
Spoonrobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,993
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1174 Post(s)
Liked 115 Times in 81 Posts
Whoa, I remember this thread from when it was originally posted. Thanks for taking the time to follow-up with the resolution. What an infuriating outcome.
Spoonrobot is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 11:23 AM
  #77  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,959

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1253 Post(s)
Liked 422 Times in 222 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
If her medical bills were really only $11k as initially stated and she agreed she was at fault (I was always told to never do this even when it was obvious in a car accident), how in the hell is she getting that extra $64k? F that, noise. And now your insurance bills are going to get hiked up. Sorry to hear that. Hopefully, USAC blackballs her from entering further events as a trouble.
Originally Posted by noise boy View Post
I don't know what her medical expenses were in the end. I know after 2+ years of this crap, she actually went and got the surgery that the doctors had been recommending for 2 years to correct whatever the issue was.
Ok,

This is starting to make a little more sense. Two years of on and off treatment, plus surgery, its very likely her medical bills (at least billed, if not paid) exceeded $75,000. I have no idea what the surgery was, but its rare these days that any surgery adds up to bills under $50,000.

So Allstate was looking at a couple of things: 1) Florida is a pure comparative negligence jurisdiction, which means that if the plaintiff is 75% at fault, she still can recover 25% of her damages; 2) Jury trials are expensive, with medical issues regarding the cause of, and need for, her surgery, trail costs, with experts, could have easily exceeded $75,000, 3) South Florida juries are pretty generous giving money away, 4) Juries aren't likely to look at the dynamics of a cycling event the same way we would as bike racers, so good chance they'll fail so see things the way we would.

Thus, there's no upside to Allstate in trying the case. At $75,000, a defense verdict just breaks even, and if things go badly they could lose the whole $300,000 (or more with a bad faith claim) plus the $75,000 in cost of trial.

So my bet, now that I know she had surgery is that the $75,000 was just enough to pay off the lien from the medical providers, pay expenses, pay the lawyer, and put maybe $5,000 to $10,000 in the plaintiffs pocket. A surgical case that settles at that low of number indicates that it was in fact a weak case on liability.

No one walked away from this happy, with the possible exception of Plaintiff's counsel, but they likely cut their fee to get this done at $75,000.

All of which goes back to my point that suing over a personal injury really should be your path of last resort.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 12:31 PM
  #78  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Ok,

This is starting to make a little more sense. Two years of on and off treatment, plus surgery, its very likely her medical bills (at least billed, if not paid) exceeded $75,000. I have no idea what the surgery was, but its rare these days that any surgery adds up to bills under $50,000.

So Allstate was looking at a couple of things: 1) Florida is a pure comparative negligence jurisdiction, which means that if the plaintiff is 75% at fault, she still can recover 25% of her damages; 2) Jury trials are expensive, with medical issues regarding the cause of, and need for, her surgery, trail costs, with experts, could have easily exceeded $75,000, 3) South Florida juries are pretty generous giving money away, 4) Juries aren't likely to look at the dynamics of a cycling event the same way we would as bike racers, so good chance they'll fail so see things the way we would.

Thus, there's no upside to Allstate in trying the case. At $75,000, a defense verdict just breaks even, and if things go badly they could lose the whole $300,000 (or more with a bad faith claim) plus the $75,000 in cost of trial.

So my bet, now that I know she had surgery is that the $75,000 was just enough to pay off the lien from the medical providers, pay expenses, pay the lawyer, and put maybe $5,000 to $10,000 in the plaintiffs pocket. A surgical case that settles at that low of number indicates that it was in fact a weak case on liability.

No one walked away from this happy, with the possible exception of Plaintiff's counsel, but they likely cut their fee to get this done at $75,000.

All of which goes back to my point that suing over a personal injury really should be your path of last resort.
Yeah, it was a total ****show from all sides. I am glad it's over, wasn't looking forward to potentially getting screwed by a South Florida jury on this. My big concern was the potential for the jury to award greater than 300K, every penny of which would have come out of my pocket. Which of course meant I would be declaring bankruptcy.

What I would like is for the USAC release to be re-written to exclude this type of thing entirely. As it is written right now, the only person that isn't protected is the rider. You can't sue the promoter, USAC or anybody else, but you can sue other riders. That shouldn't be the case, any sort of competitive event is a risky endeavor and the onus should be on the individual to assume that risk. Exposing other riders to this kind of lawsuit is bunk. Had this gone sideways, I would be looking at potentially 7+ years of financial ruin as a result of participating in the Gran Fondo. I was lucky I am a homeowner, otherwise it would have meant complete financial ruin for me even at 75K award.
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 12:32 PM
  #79  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
Whoa, I remember this thread from when it was originally posted. Thanks for taking the time to follow-up with the resolution. What an infuriating outcome.
No problem, as I mentioned in the original post, I figured that this forum would know more about this than any other.
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 12:44 PM
  #80  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,959

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1253 Post(s)
Liked 422 Times in 222 Posts
Originally Posted by noise boy View Post
Yeah, it was a total ****show from all sides. I am glad it's over, wasn't looking forward to potentially getting screwed by a South Florida jury on this. My big concern was the potential for the jury to award greater than 300K, every penny of which would have come out of my pocket. Which of course meant I would be declaring bankruptcy.

What I would like is for the USAC release to be re-written to exclude this type of thing entirely. As it is written right now, the only person that isn't protected is the rider. You can't sue the promoter, USAC or anybody else, but you can sue other riders. That shouldn't be the case, any sort of competitive event is a risky endeavor and the onus should be on the individual to assume that risk. Exposing other riders to this kind of lawsuit is bunk. Had this gone sideways, I would be looking at potentially 7+ years of financial ruin as a result of participating in the Gran Fondo. I was lucky I am a homeowner, otherwise it would have meant complete financial ruin for me even at 75K award.
It appears to be a hole in the release, that results from USAC doing Gran Fondo's.

USAC clearly has an interest in having participants released from liability under the waiver (to avoid participants getting sued then trying to bring USAC in a third party complaint).

For USAC races, the release does protect participants in that it covers members, and you've got to be a licensed rider, ie member to race a USAC event.

But you don't have to be a USAC member to do a Gran Fondo. Bet you no one though of this when they started sponsoring Gran Fondo's.

They need to rewrite the release used for Gran FOndo's if they haven't already.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 12:50 PM
  #81  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
It appears to be a hole in the release, that results from USAC doing Gran Fondo's.

USAC clearly has an interest in having participants released from liability under the waiver (to avoid participants getting sued then trying to bring USAC in a third party complaint).

For USAC races, the release does protect participants in that it covers members, and you've got to be a licensed rider, ie member to race a USAC event.

But you don't have to be a USAC member to do a Gran Fondo. Bet you no one though of this when they started sponsoring Gran Fondo's.

They need to rewrite the release used for Gran FOndo's if they haven't already.
Interesting, I guess to race a USAC sanctioned event you have to buy a one day license?

I agree, it would be interesting to see if they have fixed that yet for Gran Fondos. My bet is probably not, had I sucked them into this ****show it might have prompted them to do so though.
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 12:51 PM
  #82  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,959

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1253 Post(s)
Liked 422 Times in 222 Posts
Originally Posted by noise boy View Post
. My big concern was the potential for the jury to award greater than 300K, every penny of which would have come out of my pocket. Which of course meant I would be declaring bankruptcy.
Actually, you'd have a shot at a bad faith claim against Allstate given that they had already turned down an opportunity to settle in policy limits. Thus if they proceeded to trial and lost more than $300,000, you'd still have a basis to potentially make them pay the portion above $300,000

Of course you'd have another lawsuit on your hands, so its good its settled.

Again, one takeaway from all this is if you have any assets, you really do want a $2million personal umbrella policy.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 12:54 PM
  #83  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Actually, you'd have a shot at a bad faith claim against Allstate given that they had already turned down an opportunity to settle in policy limits. Thus if they proceeded to trial and lost more than $300,000, you'd still have a basis to potentially make them pay the portion above $300,000

Of course you'd have another lawsuit on your hands, so its good its settled.

Again, one takeaway from all this is if you have any assets, you really do want a $2million personal umbrella policy.
That's on my agenda. I spoke with Allstate about it, the policy itself isn't that expensive (about $120 per year) but I would have to raise the liability on my homeowners to 300K (currently 100K) which also isn't that big a thing, about $60 per year. But I would also have to raise the liability on my car insurance to 300K which adds $150 per 6 months. It's not that much money, but it is sort of annoying.
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 12:58 PM
  #84  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,959

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1253 Post(s)
Liked 422 Times in 222 Posts
It looks like USAC has modified the release so it covers non-competitive events, but it doesn't look like they've thought about this issue. Clearly, they should not want Gran Fondo participants to be at risk for being sued by other
Gran Fondo participants.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 01:29 PM
  #85  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
It looks like USAC has modified the release so it covers non-competitive events, but it doesn't look like they've thought about this issue. Clearly, they should not want Gran Fondo participants to be at risk for being sued by other
Gran Fondo participants.
Is there any mechanism to bring this up to USAC?
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 01:31 PM
  #86  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,959

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1253 Post(s)
Liked 422 Times in 222 Posts
email your district rep
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 01:44 PM
  #87  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
email your district rep
I am not a license holder
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 02:26 PM
  #88  
globecanvas
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
/me calls my insurance co about this umbrella policy thing. Not something I've ever heard of before but I would not like to have to go through what you're going through.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 02:27 PM
  #89  
globecanvas
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
you really do want a $2million personal umbrella policy.
Out of curiosity, where are you coming up with that $2 million number?
globecanvas is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 02:38 PM
  #90  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
Out of curiosity, where are you coming up with that $2 million number?
It's a pretty standard amount of insurance, that is what Allstate offered me. I am not sure you can get one for any less of an amount.
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 02:38 PM
  #91  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
/me calls my insurance co about this umbrella policy thing. Not something I've ever heard of before but I would not like to have to go through what you're going through.
Definitely worth checking in to, it's pretty cheap as far as insurance goes.
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 02:41 PM
  #92  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,512
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 647 Times in 408 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
/me calls my insurance co about this umbrella policy thing. Not something I've ever heard of before but I would not like to have to go through what you're going through.
I've got one. The way my agent described it, it covers things like if a solicitor comes up to my door, uninvited, trips on my front step, breaks his nose and then sues me for damages, or if one of the neighbor kids comes into my fenced-in back yard and my dog bites him.
topflightpro is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 02:46 PM
  #93  
globecanvas
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
The USAA agent described it differently -- more like an incident outside the home, like @noise boy's situation, or if your dog bites somebody at the park, or you make food for a charity event and people get sick, or your teenager throws a party while you're away and some kid gets in a drunk driving accident on the way home, etc.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 02:56 PM
  #94  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
The USAA agent described it differently -- more like an incident outside the home, like @noise boy's situation, or if your dog bites somebody at the park, or you make food for a charity event and people get sick, or your teenager throws a party while you're away and some kid gets in a drunk driving accident on the way home, etc.
It's actually both. As an example, someone comes to your house and falls down your stairs and ends up paralyzed. That will burn through your standard homeowners liability coverage fairly quickly.
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 04:16 PM
  #95  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,959

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1253 Post(s)
Liked 422 Times in 222 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
Out of curiosity, where are you coming up with that $2 million number?


used to be $1 million was pretty standard. Though was most any personal injury suit against an individual can be settled for a million or less.


These days with higher verdicts, $2 million is pretty standard.


Have 2 glasses of wine at dinner, ninja salmon darts in front of you, no umbrella policy you've put most of what you have at risk.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 10:00 PM
  #96  
Radish_legs
Senior Member
 
Radish_legs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 977
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 450 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 54 Times in 27 Posts
how does your home owner's insurance cover a bike ride in a different state?
Radish_legs is offline  
Old 05-08-17, 10:52 PM
  #97  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by Radish_legs View Post
how does your home owner's insurance cover a bike ride in a different state?
Part of your homeowners policy is liability coverage, it covers incidents in and away from your house, other than car incidents.
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-09-17, 06:43 AM
  #98  
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,045
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3558 Post(s)
Liked 2,334 Times in 1,386 Posts
So is the umbrella an addition to your homeowners, or is it a separate thing? I've been just buying the most cost-efficient car/homeowners combo once a year off the internet, so I don't have an agent advising me.
himespau is offline  
Old 05-09-17, 06:45 AM
  #99  
noise boy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
noise boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 915

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD9

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 486 Times in 289 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
So is the umbrella an addition to your homeowners, or is it a separate thing? I've been just buying the most cost-efficient car/homeowners combo once a year off the internet, so I don't have an agent advising me.
Exactly so, it picks up where your homeowners ends, in my case 300k.
noise boy is offline  
Old 05-09-17, 06:49 AM
  #100  
globecanvas
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
So is the umbrella an addition to your homeowners, or is it a separate thing? I've been just buying the most cost-efficient car/homeowners combo once a year off the internet, so I don't have an agent advising me.
It's a separate thing, but for USAA at least, it requires that you have your auto and homeowners insurance at certain levels. In my case, they are already at those levels -- the auto liability has to be at $500k per incident, and the homeowners personal injury at $300k.

Then you can add the umbrella insurance which covers up to $1-5 million (you choose the limit) for claims that those other policies would cover. So it's just a way to tie the policies together with an increased total liability limit.

I am not 100% certain I have all of those details correct, but that's how I understood it.
globecanvas is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.