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Old 12-08-15, 11:01 AM
  #251  
mike868y
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doge's kid needs a "my dad dremeled my chainring bolts" exemption
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Old 12-08-15, 11:05 AM
  #252  
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Maybe TUEs should just be listed somewhere so I can look up who is racing on ++T w/a doctor's note?
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Old 12-08-15, 11:07 AM
  #253  
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I think it was velonews that did an article on Test, and it said it's essentially impossible to get a TUE for it. From what I've read/heard, it's actually supposed to be difficult to get those exemptions for a lot of things.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:25 AM
  #254  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
Maybe TUEs should just be listed somewhere so I can look up who is racing on ++T w/a doctor's note?
They are supposed to be a secret. So there could be a rider you see shooting up ++T that is not cheating. I was looking for the report (couldn't find it) that gave total numbers of riders on TUEs vs the general population. Seemed like they pulled everyone out of the hospital. It was high. Particularly inhalers. I expect the good stuff is hard to get, but again - it is a secret.

The cheating part is a reflection of the riders character. But do you care so much when they beat you that the authorities helped them vs they cheated?
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Old 12-08-15, 11:31 AM
  #255  
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In 2009, UCI granted something like 290 TUE's.
2014 they only granted 24 TUE's.

TUE abuse is definitely a loophole that was exploited but they seem to be cracking down.

They must have a list of athletes on TUE's but I don't know where to find it.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:38 AM
  #256  
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keep in mind there was a time where albuterol was on the list and then came off the list, which I suspects accounts for a lot of the drop.

again, people aren't getting secretive TUEs for testosterone. this isn't the conspiracy theory forum.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:47 AM
  #257  
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead View Post
...

They must have a list of athletes on TUE's but I don't know where to find it.
I think per UCI rules - that disclosing who has a TUE is not allowed, so if you don't find a list that is a good thing. Froome made it obvious for him. I've seen kids (very good kids) use inhalers too. That it is allowed or not does not matter to those without inhalers.

I am unaware of physical TUES in cycling, but certainly the equivalent exist in other sports. Blade running, golf carts, bionic eyes have been allowed when some argued they gave the athlete an advantage over their competitors. I'd like them all gone. From your post 290->24 - why not 0 or go the other way and allow every rider to do what those 24 are doing. So if Froome gets an inhaler, all riders are allowed them.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:52 AM
  #258  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
So if Froome gets an inhaler, all riders are allowed them.
they can

Inhaled beta-2 agonists are prohibited and require a therapeutic use exemption (TUE), except for albuterol (also called salbutamol) dosages under 1600 micrograms/24 hours, formoterol dosages less than 54 micrograms/24 hours, and salmeterol when taken according to manufacturer’s instructions.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:53 AM
  #259  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
keep in mind there was a time where albuterol was on the list and then came off the list, which I suspects accounts for a lot of the drop. ...
Good. I have heard of cortisone TUEs. And that at one time cortisone could mask low doses of testosterone. So the idea would be the athlete would hurt their back, get a TUE and cheat with other stuff.

Yea, it is conspiracy stuff we talk about in feed zones (particularly EU) while you guys are out riding. But there is always someone who knows someone that got around it.
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Old 12-08-15, 11:57 AM
  #260  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
I think it was velonews that did an article on Test, and it said it's essentially impossible to get a TUE for it. From what I've read/heard, it's actually supposed to be difficult to get those exemptions for a lot of things.

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws....sm-v4.0-en.pdf

"TUE should only be approved for androgen deficiency that has an organic etiology. TUE should not be approved for androgen deficiency due to functional disorder."
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Old 12-08-15, 12:00 PM
  #261  
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did you not hear? i fought we brought this up earlier.

there is now a TUE of sorts for testosterone. this guy (a doctor who does these treatments, no less) sued to have the exemption allowed.

read about it here.

it's not for UCI-level athletes, but it brings up a new "recreational TUE" which is, IMO, pretty murky.

basically, if you suck, you can get it, but then it expires when you suck less. (Seriously.)
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Old 12-08-15, 12:08 PM
  #262  
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I think I've mentioned this before, but I have asthma. Not exercise induced asthma, but regular, full-time asthma that requires daily medication to keep things in check.

A couple years ago, I sat down with my doctor to go through my medication and fill out my TUE forms to make sure everything was on the up and up. On the form, it required doctors to certify that there were no other non-banned medications to control my asthma. Doctor pointed out there were several options that were not banned that I could use.

We changed my medications to those options to see if they would work. Turns out they did.
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Old 12-08-15, 12:19 PM
  #263  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
The UCI issuing Therapeutic Use Exemptions (TUEs) in cycling - where someone judges that a rule can be changed for an individual is also unfair. Rather than accept bad luck, average genes, or results of risk, other people judge how things can be made even again. Cheating - no, unfair yes.
So are you saying there should never be any TUE's, no matter what its for?
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Old 12-08-15, 12:22 PM
  #264  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
keep in mind there was a time where albuterol was on the list and then came off the list, which I suspects accounts for a lot of the drop.

again, people aren't getting secretive TUEs for testosterone. this isn't the conspiracy theory forum.
I just thought Doge's paranoia about people abusing the TUE would be lessened if he knew that people knew they would have to be willing to defend their TUE under public visibility. I actually have no problem with someone going to a doctor and getting a TuE for something. I figure the nefarious few probably don't bother and just count on the entire lack of testing.
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Old 12-08-15, 12:24 PM
  #265  
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Originally Posted by Wylde06 View Post
So are you saying there should never be any TUE's, no matter what its for?
Yes. In the open / unlimited pro class.

I'm fine with leveling the field in the other classes. Some folks have more talent and some more disadvantages and some take risks. It is all part of sports.
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Old 12-08-15, 12:27 PM
  #266  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
....

basically, if you suck, you can get it, but then it expires when you suck less. (Seriously.)
That is at the core of my whole TUE paranoia.

How do you stop "cheating" by going to the physician and having them write you a legal excuse to dope?
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Old 12-08-15, 12:31 PM
  #267  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
did you not hear? i fought we brought this up earlier.

there is now a TUE of sorts for testosterone. this guy (a doctor who does these treatments, no less) sued to have the exemption allowed.

read about it here.

it's not for UCI-level athletes, but it brings up a new "recreational TUE" which is, IMO, pretty murky.

basically, if you suck, you can get it, but then it expires when you suck less. (Seriously.)
33 with the test level of an 80 year old man is probably a real bummer in the sack, but competition isn't Harrison Bergeron. Also it makes sense that someone in the middle of a residency is probably stressed as **** and has some hormone issues due to juggling life commitments and probable lack of sleep.

It makes sense to me that he is from Amarillo. If any of you have driven through Amarillo it probably makes sense to you too.
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Old 12-08-15, 12:38 PM
  #268  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Yes. In the open / unlimited pro class.
So then what about diabetics that race. Just ban them from competition? Insulin is a prohibited substance that requires a TUE.
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Old 12-08-15, 12:55 PM
  #269  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
did you not hear? i fought we brought this up earlier.

there is now a TUE of sorts for testosterone. this guy (a doctor who does these treatments, no less) sued to have the exemption allowed.

read about it here.

it's not for UCI-level athletes, but it brings up a new "recreational TUE" which is, IMO, pretty murky.

basically, if you suck, you can get it, but then it expires when you suck less. (Seriously.)
that is pretty dumb
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Old 12-08-15, 01:08 PM
  #270  
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Originally Posted by Wylde06 View Post
So then what about diabetics that race. Just ban them from competition? Insulin is a prohibited substance that requires a TUE.
Diabetics are not banned, just substances are. At the "top" level - yes - no TUEs. OR allow all riders the same TUE. If the diabetic needs something that also improves performance now they have an advantage - if they choose to exploit it. The infirmity that has a PED cure and can be faked - will be.
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Old 12-08-15, 01:21 PM
  #271  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Diabetics are not banned, just substances are. At the "top" level - yes - no TUEs. OR allow all riders the same TUE. If the diabetic needs something that also improves performance now they have an advantage - if they choose to exploit it. The infirmity that has a PED cure and can be faked - will be.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Lets ban insulin, which is REQUIRED by most diabetics to keep their sugar in check (Team Novonordisk), but let the riders continue to race..

Ive never looked to see what kind of performance enhancing "qualities" insulin has..but you would have to be ****ing stupid to use it. When I still had to take it regularly, I would purposely take less than I should have the night before a big ride or race. Calling it a PED cure is ridiculous.

Last edited by Wylde06; 12-08-15 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 12-08-15, 01:29 PM
  #272  
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Originally Posted by Wylde06 View Post
Ive never looked to see what kind of performance enhancing "qualities" insulin has..but you would have to be ****ing stupid to use it. Calling it a PED cure is ridiculous.
I think insulin is the poster child for why TUEs are necessary. Insulin is a PED, and at least one pro has been caught using it, Rasmussen (who was pretty much abusing everything from baby aspirin to drain cleaner).

How to catch an insulin-doping athlete

Originally Posted by that article
Insulin, when used as a performance enhancer, works to slow down the degradation of muscle tissue, which is attractive to such athletes as bodybuilders especially when they are also doping with a growth hormone. For endurance athletes, cyclists and runners, for example, insulin provides fuel for muscle cells and improves stamina. Although the prevalence of insulin doping is not known, luggage seizures at airports and testimonials from formerly doped athletes suggest that the abuse of this hormone is a real problem.
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Old 12-08-15, 01:32 PM
  #273  
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Saying no TUEs does not mean ban all drugs. It means if something is banned it is banned for everyone and no exceptions. You brought up diabetics. A substance that isn't even banned it has no place in an argument about TUEs. TUES are only for banned stuff. I am not checking the list right now for what is banned or not, but if insulin is not a PED then it shouldn't be on the list and should not require a TUE and everyone can use it. If insulin helps performance it is a Performance Enhancing Drug (PED). PED in not pejorative - it is descriptive. Something that is a drug is or is not a PED.

If something is both a cure and performance enhancer (PED) that is where the problem is. Because once you allow one group to get it for a cure they also may get it for performance.

Last edited by Doge; 12-08-15 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 12-08-15, 01:36 PM
  #274  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Diabetics are not banned, just substances are. At the "top" level - yes - no TUEs. OR allow all riders the same TUE. If the diabetic needs something that also improves performance now they have an advantage - if they choose to exploit it. The infirmity that has a PED cure and can be faked - will be.
This is incorrect. In the case of a diabetic, it's not providing an advantage. It is simply fixing the medical condition that puts them at a disadvantage from a normal person. It's bringing them up to par - and by par, that is the average population, not par for athletes in the sport in which they participate.

Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
It makes sense to me that he is from Amarillo. If any of you have driven through Amarillo it probably makes sense to you too.
Amarillo's not so bad. I lived in that part of the world for a few years. At least they have Palo Duro canyon nearby.
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Old 12-08-15, 01:38 PM
  #275  
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Originally Posted by Wylde06 View Post
This doesn't make any sense to me. Lets ban insulin, which is REQUIRED by most diabetics to keep their sugar in check (Team Novonordisk), but let the riders continue to race..

Ive never looked to see what kind of performance enhancing "qualities" insulin has..but you would have to be ****ing stupid to use it. When I still had to take it regularly, I would purposely take less than I should have the night before a big ride or race. Calling it a PED cure is ridiculous.
Insulin stacked with HgH is a very powerful PED FYI.
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