Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Ride Clean

Old 12-10-15, 12:58 PM
  #351  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,471

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Who determines whether testosterone is a medically necessary treatment? Well, I'd say an endocrinologist says so. If a rider has an endocrine condition where testosterone is part of that treatment, then I'm fine with it. That's obviously open for abuse, but so is everything. We have speed limits and that doesn't make it impossible to speed. I don't worry about a few people abusing something to prevent others from getting the treatment they need *and* for those people to still have a right to compete in sport.
My statement was at the very top level. For cycling those on the WorldTour teams. Some of these guys are monitored hourly as to their whereabouts. Allowing one to inject anything is a big hole in the system that makes all the other intrusive processes and efforts moot. Personal, team, country based physicians can not be trusted. The level of athlete that can perform at this level is and will of course be limited to those not needing help.

The competition to find who is the best in the world should be between those without technology/drug exemptions to do what others can't. If one athlete that trains as hard as the other lacks physical ability they are not allowed to make it up with technology. Likewise if someone has missing or sub functional parts then like 99.99...% of the population they can't compete at the top level. As hard as the TUE drug discussion is I think the prosthesis discussion is more difficult. My view is the same.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 01:07 PM
  #352  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,471

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Wait, what? No outliers on the high side are being barred from competition (for men, at least). ..
Hematocrit is above 50 (I think) you are barred if you are a man, 46 (I think) for women. There are millions of men with that number naturally. It can be legally and illegally moved a bit. We move it legally. But - by total legal/allowed methods if the racer is tested over 50 - I'm not sure what the penalty is, but there is a limit.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 01:12 PM
  #353  
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,441
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 912 Post(s)
Liked 751 Times in 342 Posts
Do they still test that number, even though there's an actual EPO test?
gsteinb is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 01:20 PM
  #354  
**** that
Thread Starter
 
mattm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,402
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 30 Posts
I think so - isn't that a part of the Biological Passport test?
__________________
cat 1.

my race videos
mattm is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 01:21 PM
  #355  
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,441
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 912 Post(s)
Liked 751 Times in 342 Posts
no clue, really. thus the question. I don't follow the intricacies of this stuff much.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 01:23 PM
  #356  
Senior Member
 
Duke of Kent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Blacksburg, VA
Posts: 4,850

Bikes: Yeti ASRc, Focus Raven 29er, Flyxii FR316

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge
Hematocrit is above 50 (I think) you are barred if you are a man, 46 (I think) for women. There are millions of men with that number naturally. It can be legally and illegally moved a bit. We move it legally. But - by total legal/allowed methods if the racer is tested over 50 - I'm not sure what the penalty is, but there is a limit.
And you can get an exemption.

Several pros have this due to "growing up at altitude". Whether or not its legit is another discussion.
Duke of Kent is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 03:38 PM
  #357  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,471

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb
Do they still test that number, even though there's an actual EPO test?
I had thought so.
What I can't find right now on the UCI site is the limit.

From UCI 2012 both are listed.
We pride ourselves on the fact that we were the first sport to introduce a whole range of scientific measures as tools in this fight. These include the haematocrit test, the EPO tests, the homologous blood transfusion test and the blood passport

I read this indicating they do from last year. Venezuelan pops for 63-percent hematocrit, misses chance to join Androni - VeloNews.com

Letter from the President to the riders
Doge is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 03:46 PM
  #358  
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,101 Times in 1,415 Posts
I'd like to thank the 33 for making me aware of baking soda as a supplement.
caloso is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 03:59 PM
  #359  
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,441
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 912 Post(s)
Liked 751 Times in 342 Posts
I'm snorting lines of baking soda right now!
gsteinb is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 03:59 PM
  #360  
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by caloso
I'd like to thank the 33 for making me aware of baking soda as a supplement.
me too! I'm going to brush my teeth and swallow.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 04:22 PM
  #361  
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 5 Posts
Soda?

Not powder?

Ooops. That explains it.
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 04:53 PM
  #362  
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
just don't eat pickles just before...
Ygduf is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 05:31 PM
  #363  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,471

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
I didn't think the juniors were doing it. This is a bummer.
British junior cyclist admits to taking EPO | Cyclingnews.com
Doge is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 05:32 PM
  #364  
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,101 Times in 1,415 Posts
Originally Posted by Racer Ex
Soda?

Not powder?

Ooops. That explains it.
Not interchangeable, which is why that batch of cookies came out so horribly.
caloso is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 06:26 PM
  #365  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 557
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge
I didn't think the juniors were doing it. This is a bummer.
British junior cyclist admits to taking EPO | Cyclingnews.com

Was just about to post that.
British cycling stunned after junior TT champion and masters road race winner guilty of doping | CyclingTips
Andy STi is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 06:33 PM
  #366  
gmt
 
Grumpy McTrumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 12,509
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Stunned?

British Cycling has been the same sort of dominant force that American Cycling was during the Lance years. Maybe these two are just amateur aberrations, and the remainder of British Cycling are clean as a whistle, but I seem to recall USCF being "stunned" as well. Look what happened there.
Grumpy McTrumpy is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 08:30 PM
  #367  
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 5 Posts
Stunned, after Tiernan-Locke? Geert Leinders?

Brailsford hired both guys, then claimed he was shocked about the doping. TL was a very good rider who suddenly rode like superman. Leinders worked for Rabobank for 7 years and more than a few doping positives including several TDF top five guys.

For a guy who claims he pays attention to all the little details, that's pretty obtuse.

Carmichael paid out money to settle doping some juniors while he was with USAC (Then USCF). I know people who rode for the US team as juniors in Europe under Eddie B and were given "vitamin" shots. So juniors testing positive is not a surprise. It's just sad. The article also talks about another guy who tested positive.

So we don't have a lock on misbehavior. USA! USA!
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 10:11 PM
  #368  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,471

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
They don't test juniors that I know of. They can (I know because I had to sign they could) - they don't.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-10-15, 10:23 PM
  #369  
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Posts: 9,787
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times in 59 Posts
The Brits are feeling the same kind of nationalist exceptionalism we did in the 90's - we're the good guys, with good upstanding Protestant morals, not like those sneaky Euros - no way we'd cheat! It's just as silly and arrogantly naive as it was when it was us.
grolby is offline  
Old 12-11-15, 11:28 AM
  #370  
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,471

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3373 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times in 253 Posts
It would help the sport a lot if at the end of every armature (junior 14+, Cat P123) race the top 10 got bike checked and figure pricked and gave a urine sample. They could take those samples and throw them in the trash (secretly) and we'd be way better off. The fact that testing at the development level does not really exist is an issue that by the time they are pros / at the international level they have had the opportunity to cheat a very long time. By that time they are too far into it. Sure rides also start in their 20s but it would be better to check much earlier.
Doge is offline  
Old 12-11-15, 12:16 PM
  #371  
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Posts: 9,787
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times in 59 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge
It would help the sport a lot if at the end of every armature (junior 14+, Cat P123) race the top 10 got bike checked and figure pricked and gave a urine sample. They could take those samples and throw them in the trash (secretly) and we'd be way better off. The fact that testing at the development level does not really exist is an issue that by the time they are pros / at the international level they have had the opportunity to cheat a very long time. By that time they are too far into it. Sure rides also start in their 20s but it would be better to check much earlier.
I mean, that's a great idea except for the part where it's fraud, medically unethical, and would very quickly be discovered and ruin the credibility of the anti-doping agency and/or governing body.
grolby is offline  
Old 12-11-15, 12:20 PM
  #372  
Nonsense
 
TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vagabond
Posts: 13,916

Bikes: Affirmative

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 878 Post(s)
Liked 538 Times in 236 Posts
RE: peeing in a cup, I have a shy bladder, so if I ever have to give a sample there are gonna be some super bored testers watching me. Maybe there should be a designated juicer that bear hugs you from behind to force the pee out?
TheKillerPenguin is offline  
Old 12-11-15, 12:22 PM
  #373  
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,978

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 967 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I don't really think it would be wrong or unethical to tell people we're collecting samples from the top-10 and 2 or 3 will be randomly tested. That's honest, up front, and peeing in a cup, tested or not tested, would scare a lot of people straight.

It's a lot of pee though and the expense of collecting would be a burden.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 12-11-15, 12:50 PM
  #374  
Ninny
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Posts: 5,295
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I would have no problem with collecting the data from lots of racers and discarding almost all of it. It's like a trooper parked on the side of the road, everybody slows down even if there's nobody in the cruiser.
globecanvas is offline  
Old 12-11-15, 01:00 PM
  #375  
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Posts: 9,787
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times in 59 Posts
Originally Posted by Ygduf
I don't really think it would be wrong or unethical to tell people we're collecting samples from the top-10 and 2 or 3 will be randomly tested. That's honest, up front, and peeing in a cup, tested or not tested, would scare a lot of people straight.

It's a lot of pee though and the expense of collecting would be a burden.
Disclosure is the crucial element missing from Doge's proposal. However, I would need some convincing that there would be a functional difference between taking more samples and having most of them be shams vs. true random testing where only samples to be actually tested are taken. Just look at the pro dopers who took (take) dozens of tests with essentially no fear that they would (will) be caught.

Originally Posted by globecanvas
I would have no problem with collecting the data from lots of racers and discarding almost all of it. It's like a trooper parked on the side of the road, everybody slows down even if there's nobody in the cruiser.
There's also the question of cost. That trooper still gets paid to sit by the side of the road. Testing ten people, even if 7-9 tests are shams, is not going to cost the same as only collecting samples from 1-3.
grolby is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.