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Old 12-11-15, 01:30 PM
  #376  
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My only point - details aside, is all winning cyclists that choose the competitive route need to know there is a high probability they will be tested. This should be any age at the competitive level - throwing out Cat 2+. It should be all rules, not just substance. If you don't want to be tested stay at the rec categories.
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Old 12-11-15, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
I don't really think it would be wrong or unethical to tell people we're collecting samples from the top-10 and 2 or 3 will be randomly tested. That's honest, up front, and peeing in a cup, tested or not tested, would scare a lot of people straight.

It's a lot of pee though and the expense of collecting would be a burden.
Originally Posted by globecanvas
I would have no problem with collecting the data from lots of racers and discarding almost all of it. It's like a trooper parked on the side of the road, everybody slows down even if there's nobody in the cruiser.
both great comments, imo
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Old 12-11-15, 10:41 PM
  #378  
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And BTW, no one has stepped up and paid my surcharge yet.
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Old 12-12-15, 10:28 AM
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On the Junior Gabriel Evans that was found with and admitted to using EPO...To the OP and this kid they both have something in common. Both were below the pressure cooker level of cycling, as the 49 year old in the OP.

I can't find him on PCS Search and his win was a 10 mile TT that he had won before - pre EPO (he says) and likely not something kids could point to and say "see how good EPO makes you". He does not add to the pressure to cheat both because he was caught and because he is not all that good (on the big scale).

On one hand that seems worse, on the other it makes me feel better. His teammates dad found the vile and he admitted to using it. So also not a test case for testing. I wish they would test the teens more.
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Old 12-12-15, 03:51 PM
  #380  
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this may shed some light on doping: Cheating Fact Sheet - RESEARCH CENTER - Cheating Is A Personal Foul
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Old 12-12-15, 04:00 PM
  #381  
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
And BTW, no one has stepped up and paid my surcharge yet.
I have an idea for you...Approach USADA as a snitch to rat out the dopers for a fee.
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Old 12-12-15, 06:53 PM
  #382  
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Just renewed with USAC for 2016! $25 surcharge yes, but at least they said I was "pro" during checkout:

"Race Clean Surcharge for Pro Racers: $25"

Btw I'll pay any of you $25 as well to call me pro from now on. Totally worth it.
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Old 12-12-15, 07:03 PM
  #383  
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Originally Posted by mattm

Btw I'll pay any of you $25 as well to call me pro from now on. Totally worth it.

You're a pro racer and you're $25 makes me a Pro coach.
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Old 12-12-15, 08:18 PM
  #384  
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I can't wait for all the Cat 1 GoFundMe's that show up in a few weeks on Facebook.
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Old 12-14-15, 07:34 AM
  #385  
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Meh, all this talk about doping. If you clean up the drugs my bet is the guys who have the resources will stop using PEDs and just move on to motorized equipment. Motorised bikes may have been used in the WorldTour, admits UCI technical chief - Cycling Weekly. Or do both.
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Old 12-14-15, 12:01 PM
  #386  
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EPO...wouldn't it be ironic if EPO did not increase performance in elite and pro cyclists and let's say 10 years from now, there are discussions about how WADA got it wrong and certain pros and amateurs got screwed.

Erythropoietin doping in cycling: lack of evidence for efficacy and a negative risk?benefit

The above article was published in the British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology. It is not a clinical study of subjects using EPO but a study of the studies that are frequently sited as evidence that EPO enhances performance. The authors focus on quality and applicability of the research and provide a detailed analysis of how EPO works and how to analyze if it could increase performance in elite and pro cyclists. The entire article is about cycling.

Their goal as pharmacologists is to point out the risk benefit of EPO and that more than likely, it does not work very well, if at all, in highly trained cyclists. Their theory is that if WADA and team doctors really understood how EPO works and its risks, team doctors and athletes would not use it and WADA would focus its resources in another direction.

Interesting article....YMMV
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Old 12-14-15, 07:26 PM
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If you could use EPO while at the same time having hematocrit limited to 50 - I wonder if it would be a benefit. I'm one of those that thinks a lot of what Lance said post Opera confession was accurate. Mainly that two of his later Tours were clean/sans EPO. If that were the case, there is a data point. I'm not sure how dangerous EPO is if used to "correct" and stay in the limits.
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Old 12-14-15, 08:40 PM
  #388  
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safe as orange juice
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Old 12-14-15, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
If you could use EPO while at the same time having hematocrit limited to 50 - I wonder if it would be a benefit. I'm one of those that thinks a lot of what Lance said post Opera confession was accurate. Mainly that two of his later Tours were clean/sans EPO. If that were the case, there is a data point. I'm not sure how dangerous EPO is if used to "correct" and stay in the limits.
Lance is full of it. Only saying that because of the statute of limitations.
He may have not doped throughout, but when he did, it was SO OBVIOUS

Yeah the thing with unnaturally high hematocrit is you tend to die in your sleep.

The fact people even contemplate using epo is beyond stupid and just goes to show the real cost of drugs in cycling.
Deep damage to the grassroots of the sport and opening a door for a lot of people into what the pro peloton has already gone through- a dark and shameful history. While the pro peloton inches out of the wormhole, a whole crop of amateurs are angling their way in.... sad.
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Old 12-14-15, 10:27 PM
  #390  
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead
...Yeah the thing with unnaturally high hematocrit is you tend to die in your sleep.
Did you read what I posted? Has there ever been a cyclist that died from taking EPO with a hematiorit of 50 or below? Take many things legal or not in an OD - and you die. What is the health issue with a healthy person taking EPO to the point of raising hematocrit 5 points or so?

Last edited by Doge; 12-14-15 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 12-14-15, 10:42 PM
  #391  
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My gut says that, like taking testosterone or many other supplements, if you take epo for long enough your body probably forgets how to manufacture its own stuff.
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Old 12-14-15, 10:57 PM
  #392  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Did you read what I posted? Has there ever been a cyclist that died from taking EPO with a hematiorit of 50 or below? Take many things legal or not in an OD - and you die. What is the health issue with a healthy person taking EPO to the point of raising hematocrit 5 points or so?
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Old 12-14-15, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
My gut says that, like taking testosterone or many other supplements, if you take epo for long enough your body probably forgets how to manufacture its own stuff.
EPO is a hormone, so that could be the case.
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Old 12-14-15, 11:14 PM
  #394  
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead
Can you use your words - or just no data to back up what you posted?
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Old 12-14-15, 11:56 PM
  #395  
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Originally Posted by Hermes
I have an idea for you...Approach USADA as a snitch to rat out the dopers for a fee.
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Old 12-15-15, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mattm
Just renewed with USAC for 2016! $25 surcharge yes, but at least they said I was "pro" during checkout:

"Race Clean Surcharge for Pro Racers: $25"
So there's like 7000 USAC members and supposedly the amateurs are all up in arms about doping. There are a few hundred Cat 1's and pros, most of whom are likely to be eating ramen and living in their parent's basement.

Ostensibly (eyes rolling here) this money is going to fund more testing in the amateur ranks. So of course we will charge the "pros" 5 times the surcharge because they are less likely to have the money and are already more likely to be tested and aren't the people people are complaining about.

Amazing rationale right there.

Pretty much squeezing the euphemistic nuts of people who can't say no. I use "euphemistic" because the women pros and Cat 1's get to pay this too. Seriously, that's a pile of crap and a double portion for the ladies.

Originally Posted by hack
I can't wait for all the Cat 1 GoFundMe's that show up in a few weeks on Facebook.
So we can expect you to contribute? Because when it's your (the global "your", not you personally) $25 everyone suddenly has some reason why their money or principle matters. Funny that USADA isn't flooded with contributions from all those people who are so concerned about doping. "I'd gladly pay (for more testing)" is code for "I'd gladly have someone else pay".

At least here in Nevada women pros get paid when they get...well, you know.

Last edited by Racer Ex; 12-15-15 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 12-15-15, 01:05 AM
  #397  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Can you use your words - or just no data to back up what you posted?
No need. Youre doing a great job proving my point
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Old 12-15-15, 01:39 AM
  #398  
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
So we can expect you to contribute? Because when it's your (the global "your", not you personally) $25 everyone suddenly has some reason why their money or principle matters. Funny that USADA isn't flooded with contributions from all those people who are so concerned about doping. "I'd gladly pay (for more testing)" is code for "I'd gladly have someone else pay".
God no. I forget which of the drug threads I posted on, but I know what I'm taking (or not taking) and if I'm getting beat by dopers it won't be the end of the world.

Regarding the $25, it seems silly to target one group when USAC feels doping occurs across all cats (otherwise why say you'll test across all cats?). I think a better approach would have been a $10ish increase for P through 4 and a clear plan for those funds.
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Old 12-15-15, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by hack
God no. I forget which of the drug threads I posted on, but I know what I'm taking (or not taking) and if I'm getting beat by dopers it won't be the end of the world.

Regarding the $25, it seems silly to target one group when USAC feels doping occurs across all cats (otherwise why say you'll test across all cats?). I think a better approach would have been a $10ish increase for P through 4 and a clear plan for those funds.
That would be a better approach but is the threat of more testing - regardless of who funds it - going to actually stop anyone from doping? On some level, I actually think the prospect of testing and the fact that everyone (amateurs, masters) is so fired up actually encourages doping. People who are on drugs to win mid category or masters racers are like professional trolls - they take satisfaction in not only winning but beating others who are wound so tight they actually care who wins the local parking lot crit. The prospect of getting busted isn't going to deter someone who gets off on that. There is a real misunderstanding here regarding why someone in their 40s or 50s might use drugs to win amateur bicycle races. My first thought is those people don't need a ban from the sport, they need some time in a therapist's office.
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Old 12-15-15, 10:55 AM
  #400  
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Phoenix
That would be a better approach but is the threat of more testing - regardless of who funds it - going to actually stop anyone from doping? On some level, I actually think the prospect of testing and the fact that everyone (amateurs, masters) is so fired up actually encourages doping. People who are on drugs to win mid category or masters racers are like professional trolls - they take satisfaction in not only winning but beating others who are wound so tight they actually care who wins the local parking lot crit. The prospect of getting busted isn't going to deter someone who gets off on that. There is a real misunderstanding here regarding why someone in their 40s or 50s might use drugs to win amateur bicycle races. My first thought is those people don't need a ban from the sport, they need some time in a therapist's office.
Nice troll comment…in a racing forum forum full of people who actually care whether they win or not. The reality of it is anything worth doing is worth doing well. Your best, even. So, yeah, I train to win parking lot crits. Sometimes there are pros in those races, and sometimes it's just a bunch of old guys. I also train for a host of other reasons that have nothing at all to do with racing. Generally people who make comments judging folks for 'caring' who wins, are typically folks who don't really stand a chance. Guys who do typically get that racing is worth it, and it's best to keep things in perspective because there's always a harder race, and always someone faster than you.
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