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Old 12-17-15, 09:52 PM
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Re: Bobby Lea. Did any of you read VeloNews and the letter he wrote. Maybe he is lying through his teeth, but he admits to making a stupid mistake. Sounds very plausible to me.

Olympian Bobby Lea suspended for doping violation - VeloNews.com

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Old 12-17-15, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Re: Bobby Lea. Did any of you read VeloNews and the letter he wrote. Maybe he is lying through his teeth, but he admits to making a stupid mistake. Sounds very plausible to me.

Olympian Bobby Lea suspended for doping violation - VeloNews.com

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He admitted to using opiates to manage pain. If he's in that much pain he should not be racing. Like I said before, racing on opiates is the post-EPO frontier. He got caught. **** him.
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Old 12-17-15, 11:23 PM
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It appears Lea is going to arbitration. Speculation...He may argue that he was out of competition when he took the drug. From Globaldro...

[h=4]What does “In-competition” and “out-of-competition” mean?[/h]Unless provided otherwise in the rules of an International Federation or the ruling body of the Event in question, “In-Competition” means twelve hours before the start of a competition through the end of the competition (e.g. award ceremony and conclusion) including the sample collection process (drug testing process) related to the competition. Keep in mind you may be in-competition for drug testing purposes even though you haven’t arrived at the competition grounds yet, or you have already left!
Out-of-competition is any time that is not in-competition (e.g. training, off-season, the days between competitions).
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Old 12-18-15, 04:50 AM
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He actually said he took it to help himself sleep, because he ran out of what he'd normally take…which might just as well by OTC tylenol PM or melatonin.

I've taken percoet with broken ribs to sleep and raced in the next day or so.

I think the 'what's in competition and what's out of competition' question to be a fair one. I've never looked at what as I did as breaking any rules. I certainly wasn't high on percocet the next day when I raced. I kinda doubt Bobby Lea went to Nats and won while he was high on opiates.
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Old 12-18-15, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I kinda doubt Bobby Lea went to Nats and won while he was high on opiates.
I think that this is the big question here. I'm not so sure myself.

Did they publish the noroxycodone concentration? Shouldn't the value be telling as to whether or not he was high at the time they collected the sample? "Trace amounts" probably doesn't suggest so...
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Old 12-18-15, 09:17 AM
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they did. 57 nano grams. I have no idea what that means.
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Old 12-18-15, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
He actually said he took it to help himself sleep, because he ran out of what he'd normally take…which might just as well by OTC tylenol PM or melatonin.

I've taken percoet with broken ribs to sleep and raced in the next day or so.

I think the 'what's in competition and what's out of competition' question to be a fair one. I've never looked at what as I did as breaking any rules. I certainly wasn't high on percocet the next day when I raced. I kinda doubt Bobby Lea went to Nats and won while he was high on opiates.
Yeah, Bobby's reputation is such that I'm inclined to think a) his story is true, and b) it was a really dumb ****ing mistake.

As for in vs. out of competition, it may be a fair question but I have to wonder if that case will get him anywhere. Assuming that is his argument. The CAS appeal is really a Hail Mary in this case, and as sad as this makes me, I think that's probably fair. Because there are basically two different things he would need to clearly establish here aside from whether it should count as an out-of-competition positive: first, that his story is true and this was a one-off mistake of using a Percocet as a sleep aid, and second, that there's no way he could have benefited in competition from the amount in his body at the time. I'm not sure that either of those things are really possible with enough certainty to justify giving him a break, no matter how much we might like him and no matter how trustworthy he is. The rules have to apply equally to everyone.
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Old 12-18-15, 10:00 AM
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I totally think the rules should apply to him. I'm not a big fan of the nice guy defense. I think this was wildly poor judgment. He basically took an out of competition drug in between two events at his national championships. Not very smart (he is from pennsyltucky). But this isn't the kind of thing that makes me scream CHEAT in mind. I figure this will go to arbitration. They'll roll it back to six months, and he'll be in Rio.

I'm not much into speculation that he was high, is an opiate addict, or any of the other blah blah that's going on the interwebs.
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Old 12-18-15, 10:10 AM
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opiate drug addiction is one of the worst and my experience with them makes it hard to believe they would be a PED at all. I'm inclined to believe the story. Maybe it's optimism.
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Old 12-18-15, 10:33 AM
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When I am given a prescription drug, the first thing I check is Globaldro for the in and out of competition standing. Lea saying he did not check the standing of an opiate is, IMO, the equivalent of saying the dog ate my homework as an excuse for not having it when due.

However, two individuals taking the same drug for the same reason at the same time could have two different outcomes. From Wiki...

Pharmacokinetics - Pharmacokinetics, sometimes abbreviated as PK (from Ancient Greek pharmakon "drug" and kinetikos "moving, putting in motion"; see chemical kinetics), is a branch of pharmacology dedicated to determining the fate of substances administered externally to a living organism.

Pharmacogenetics is the study of inherited genetic differences in drug metabolic pathways which can affect individual responses to drugs, both in terms of therapeutic effect as well as adverse effects.[1] The term pharmacogenetics is often used interchangeably with the term pharmacogenomics which also investigates the role of acquired and inherited genetic differences in relation to drug response and drug behavior through a systematic examination of genes, gene products, and inter- and intra-individual variation in gene expression and function.

Lea could have just been unlucky and he did not metabolize the drug fast enough and sometimes people just do human things that in retrospect are really dumb but seemed like a good idea at the time.
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Old 12-18-15, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
He actually said he took it to help himself sleep, because he ran out of what he'd normally take…which might just as well by OTC tylenol PM or melatonin.

I've taken percoet with broken ribs to sleep and raced in the next day or so.

I think the 'what's in competition and what's out of competition' question to be a fair one. I've never looked at what as I did as breaking any rules. I certainly wasn't high on percocet the next day when I raced. I kinda doubt Bobby Lea went to Nats and won while he was high on opiates.
Some things are banned because they help with anxiety. Using chemicals to enhance your sleep could be considered cheating even if it is worn off by race time.

If your son had stress related insomnia the night before a big recital what would you recommend?
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Old 12-18-15, 10:53 AM
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I'm not really sure why you're framing that like I endorse what he did.

If you choose to reconsider how you frame things I might consider engaging you.
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Old 12-18-15, 11:08 AM
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I wasn't trying to frame it that way.
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Old 12-18-15, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes

However, two individuals taking the same drug for the same reason at the same time could have two different outcomes.
Or even the same person depending on what they ate that day (grapefruit juice effect / enzyme competition).
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Old 12-18-15, 11:34 AM
  #440  
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Believe Lea's story or not, it's still against the rules right?

I don't see what there is to appeal really. If WADA/USADA lets this slip, where is the line drawn?

Also, who the **** takes percocet just to sleep? That seems like a bit much.
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Old 12-18-15, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic
I wasn't trying to frame it that way.
ok

It was posted that he took it for pain management. I was simply correcting that it isn't what he said. He said he carried it for pain management in case of injury or crash, because he regularly raced out of the country. Good or bad idea? No clue. He took it, in this instance, according to him because he ran out of his normal sleep aid. For me it begs the question of why he needs a sleep aid. Taking a highly addictive opiate to help you sleep, when you're sure to be tested is either a sign of addiction, stupidity, or a misinterpretation of what out of competition means. Like drinking a few beers, one might think if you're no longer intoxicated it's no longer in your system. For a world class athlete to take something when he's a favorite to win a race the next day, and sure to be tested, is a significant lapse in judgement, at least.

Being that I teach stress management I think it's safe to say I wouldn't endorse taking something with known links to the heroin epidemic to get a good night sleep.
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Old 12-18-15, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mattm
Believe Lea's story or not, it's still against the rules right?

I don't see what there is to appeal really. If WADA/USADA lets this slip, where is the line drawn?

Also, who the **** takes percocet just to sleep? That seems like a bit much.

the appeal is in the definition of out of competition.
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Old 12-18-15, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
the appeal is in the definition of out of competition.
He was tested after the race, and found to have a banned substance in him.

That means the substance was in him during competition, right?

Over-simplified I'm sure, but just because he's appealing it doesn't mean much to me. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but rules are rules.
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Old 12-18-15, 11:41 AM
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I think it comes down to amounts. I'm not a scientist or lawyer. Personally I'd interpret outbif comp to mean if I took something at night and then I'd race the next day that it would be kosher.
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Old 12-18-15, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I think it comes down to amounts. I'm not a scientist or lawyer. Personally I'd interpret outbif comp to mean if I took something at night and then I'd race the next day that it would be kosher.
So now we need to consult a rabbi too?
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Old 12-18-15, 11:53 AM
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The distinction between under the influence and able to detect you used something.
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Old 12-18-15, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
He said he carried it for pain management in case of injury or crash, because he regularly raced out of the country. Good or bad idea? No clue.
empirically it seems like a bad idea.
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Old 12-18-15, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
ok

It was posted that he took it for pain management. I was simply correcting that it isn't what he said. He said he carried it for pain management in case of injury or crash, because he regularly raced out of the country. Good or bad idea? No clue. He took it, in this instance, according to him because he ran out of his normal sleep aid. For me it begs the question of why he needs a sleep aid. Taking a highly addictive opiate to help you sleep, when you're sure to be tested is either a sign of addiction, stupidity, or a misinterpretation of what out of competition means. Like drinking a few beers, one might think if you're no longer intoxicated it's no longer in your system. For a world class athlete to take something when he's a favorite to win a race the next day, and sure to be tested, is a significant lapse in judgement, at least.

Being that I teach stress management I think it's safe to say I wouldn't endorse taking something with known links to the heroin epidemic to get a good night sleep.
Re: sleeping aids, I'll see if I can find it again (mobile today), but Alexander Kristoff was being interviewed about the Paolini cocaine detection and said it was pretty common for guys in the peloton to use sleeping pills and muscle relaxers at night. Basically said, if you have trouble sleeping, you take them.
Nonetheless, seems like a risky keep to go to Percocet for sleep mid competition, let alone at nationals where testing is rather likely.
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Old 12-18-15, 01:00 PM
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I don't really get the "I believe him" thing that's circulating around social media comments. What's to believe? He took something he shouldn't have, for a use it wasn't intended, during nationals, where he was certain to be tested. Uh. I believe that too!
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Old 12-18-15, 02:17 PM
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I agree. I do not care if it was by accident or on purpose. We spend a bunch of time trying to figure out if things were intentional for what? If a person cheats or just breaks the rules why does it matter to others?
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