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Old 03-25-16, 06:47 PM
  #651  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
ahh, ****ing christ. via facebook am finding out about these sorts of things

Competitive Cat 1 Masters Cyclist Supplement Questions

Cyclists I need your help! - Page 2
WTF. I feel dirty just looking at that. I'm going to scrub my browsing history.
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Old 03-25-16, 06:47 PM
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God ... depressing.

That's one hell of a "**** you" to teammates, your coach (if he used one), and the community. I've ridden with him on quite a few group rides and have been in a handful of 2 or 3 up breaks where he'd rip my legs apart and then elbow flick me to come through. Sucks for guys like fudgy that have been screwed over in real race situations.

Based on this result and the crap from the juicer forum linked above, it seems out of competition testing needs to increase. Might be the only way to get the guys that are doping like mad and then cycling off before a major event (masters nat's).

Wonder if someone tipped off USAC/USADA leading to the out of comp test?

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Old 03-25-16, 06:54 PM
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The worst part about the forum links is the second mother****er being like "I'm racing you so that's all the help you get."

Makes me feel like I was very naively optimistic about the prevalence of cheating.

I know some people have suspected that I cheated or used to get where I am (moderately good masters guy, very mediocre p12 guy) but I would gladly pee in a cup if I could put another cup in front of someone I suspected.

But instead of witch hunts I think they should just take winners or top-10 finishers in district races and add them to a hat for random testing.
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Old 03-25-16, 07:06 PM
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I think at the masters armature level most users will e caught if tested.
At the pro level, I don't believe that.
What do you do there?
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Old 03-26-16, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
I think at the masters armature level most users will be caught if tested.
At the pro level, I don't believe that.
What do you do there?
I think they ought to come down hard on Masters doping. One thing that (as a promoter) I hear all the time is "I'm 50 and I just got my upgrade to Cat 4. Can I register for the M45 race?" And the honest response is "Do your category, not your age, because the masters races are so fast." I've done a few manageable masters races but generally the big hitters (perhaps in more ways than one?) were typically missing. When the big hitters show up it's basically a P12 race.

And this is over on the other coast. I can't imagine racing Masters in SoCal with all those World- and National Championship stripes all over the place. Well, I did, once, and got shelled when they turned up the heat at 4 to go.

*edit To clarify I'm not saying that this would slow down Masters miraculously, but it would certainly remove some of the spectacular performers from the stage. There are (unsubstantiated) rumors about certain riders around here who somehow decided to "take time off from racing" when rumors started flying around about testing Masters. When one of those riders is in a Masters race it completely changes the character of the race, at least in my eyes.

*edit 2 Also talented racers will always be talented. Ex-pros are always going to be fast, and guys that legitimately earn their Cat 1s are seriously strong racers. Around here at least there aren't that many so it makes it actually possible for non-pros to think about winning a Masters race.
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Last edited by carpediemracing; 03-26-16 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 03-26-16, 06:33 AM
  #656  
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Bah. At least in crits I beat all those guys with the rumors around their names. It's hard not to get defensive in these conversations.
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Old 03-26-16, 06:38 AM
  #657  
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The guys that bug me are the ones who are fat and slow in May and superman in July.

I actually had somebody ask me recently if I doped, in a roundabout way. I had to laugh. I'm so weak! Afterwards I realized he was probably asking if I knew where to get stuff.
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Old 03-26-16, 06:59 AM
  #658  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing
I think they ought to come down hard on Masters doping. One thing that (as a promoter) I hear all the time is "I'm 50 and I just got my upgrade to Cat 4. Can I register for the M45 race?" And the honest response is "Do your category, not your age, because the masters races are so fast." I've done a few manageable masters races but generally the big hitters (perhaps in more ways than one?) were typically missing. When the big hitters show up it's basically a P12 race.

And this is over on the other coast. I can't imagine racing Masters in SoCal with all those World- and National Championship stripes all over the place. Well, I did, once, and got shelled when they turned up the heat at 4 to go.

*edit To clarify I'm not saying that this would slow down Masters miraculously, but it would certainly remove some of the spectacular performers from the stage. There are (unsubstantiated) rumors about certain riders around here who somehow decided to "take time off from racing" when rumors started flying around about testing Masters. When one of those riders is in a Masters race it completely changes the character of the race, at least in my eyes.

*edit 2 Also talented racers will always be talented. Ex-pros are always going to be fast, and guys that legitimately earn their Cat 1s are seriously strong racers. Around here at least there aren't that many so it makes it actually possible for non-pros to think about winning a Masters race.
So at some age, 40+?, stop allowing doubling up. Especially in "Training" races, ride one or the other. That way you don't end up with half of the P1/2 race in the masters field later in the day. And you move more of the potential cheaters into the race where testing is more likely.

I was still a competitive 2 into my 40's, almost always doubled up in crits. So I get why guys do it. At 60 I'm now on the flip side of it. There is no way I'm hanging in P12 and would start more even in 35+ if it wasn't shorthand for 1/2 and fodder.

Last edited by Voodoo76; 03-26-16 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 03-26-16, 07:11 AM
  #659  
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I know middle of the pack guys who race six times a weekend. All you're doing is hurting promoters with that.
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Old 03-26-16, 08:35 AM
  #660  
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**** like this takes the wind right out of my sails. Not just the Buckley thing, but there's a public online forum where they discuss how to dope?! People suck so ****ing hard.
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Old 03-26-16, 08:48 AM
  #661  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I know middle of the pack guys who race six times a weekend. All you're doing is hurting promoters with that.
You rang?

I usually race the E3 race for myself, the M45+123 for teammates, and the M35 for as long as I can hold on.
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Old 03-26-16, 08:55 AM
  #662  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76
So at some age, 40+?, stop allowing doubling up. Especially in "Training" races, ride one or the other. That way you don't end up with half of the P1/2 race in the masters field later in the day. And you move more of the potential cheaters into the race where testing is more likely.

I was still a competitive 2 into my 40's, almost always doubled up in crits. So I get why guys do it. At 60 I'm now on the flip side of it. There is no way I'm hanging in P12 and would start more even in 35+ if it wasn't shorthand for 1/2 and fodder.
As a promoter (or former promoter I guess) I wouldn't want racers not to double up. Ideally there'd be a "Masters 1-2" race - if they want to have a 1 or a 2 on their license then they should race that 1 or 2. Then let the 3s and 4s do double duty in appropriate Master 3-4 (and pay the second entry, whatever that might be).

In SoCal, lining up against a dozen or two dozen former and current national champions (and perhaps several dozen titles between them), it's very hard to break through that crust. In our area there's usually a break of 5-8 that win (and two of my teammates are usually in them, both 1s I think), and although it's fun to support my teammates, I've been on the other side and it's not particularly thrilling.

Ultimately what I want (and what I think most racers want) is to have at least an illusion of "I have a chance". I don't know exactly how to make that work, but the reality is that most licensed racers are 4s or 3s, and given the chance, they'll do 2 races in a day. A promoter needs to be able to leverage that to help meet costs or, if they're doing well, make some money.
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Old 03-26-16, 08:59 AM
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I'll add that my spring series was designed for doubling up.

5s did the 5s.

4s did 4s (to do well) then the 3-4s (to train). If a Master or a Woman they could do those instead/also.

Women did Women (to do well) then whatever Category or Masters (training).

M45s did Masters (to do well) and their Category.

3s did 3-4s and P123s.

Only shortchanged group was the P12s who weren't M45. To try to accommodate that I made the races pretty long, 40 miles or so. I think that was a mistake, it dissuaded 3s from lining up and the P12s went and did a few hours on their own before/after the race. If I could do it again I'd make the P123 race 30-35 miles. I'd shorten the 3-4 race to 25 miles, not do 30 miles.
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Old 03-26-16, 09:03 AM
  #664  
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I appreciated how long the p/1/2/3 races were. It was great to get an hour of intervals and speed work in the 3/4s and then follow it up with an even harder 1:30 in the 1/2/3s. I was almost always left empty in the sprint at the end but it did not matter, I was there to twist the knife and it meant I didn't have to do as much solo pedaling after the racing was finished for the day. I think it helped lay the foundation for what was a fairly good season for me.
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Old 03-26-16, 11:44 AM
  #665  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing
I think they ought to come down hard on Masters doping. ...
I believe more frequent testing. Smaller and broader penalties - so say all those that were wearing the same jersey in the race (team) are penalized - would work better. This "Banned for Life" idea sounds like coming down hard but it is like executing a death row prisoner in CA, it just does not happen.
If penalties were small and wide it would still be OK if it was an accident (the list is so long I believe in those) and we wouldn't need appeals. Get caught, take the punishment and good luck finding a team. Teammates would police their own more.

So like:
1st PED positive: 2 month suspension for all teammates who were in that event.
2nd PED positive: 6 month suspension for all teammates who were in that event.
3rd PED positive: 2 year suspension for all teammates who were in that event. Basically this would never happen because what team would take a rider that has been caught twice?

A rider found with PEDs the first time is a liability for any team. Share the policing burden.
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Old 03-26-16, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
I believe more frequent testing. Smaller and broader penalties - so say all those that were wearing the same jersey in the race (team) are penalized - would work better. This "Banned for Life" idea sounds like coming down hard but it is like executing a death row prisoner in CA, it just does not happen.
If penalties were small and wide it would still be OK if it was an accident (the list is so long I believe in those) and we wouldn't need appeals. Get caught, take the punishment and good luck finding a team. Teammates would police their own more.

So like:
1st PED positive: 2 month suspension for all teammates who were in that event.
2nd PED positive: 6 month suspension for all teammates who were in that event.
3rd PED positive: 2 year suspension for all teammates who were in that event. Basically this would never happen because what team would take a rider that has been caught twice?

A rider found with PEDs the first time is a liability for any team. Share the policing burden.

In one swoop you would end the any team aspect of the sport. It seems to demonstrate that you harbor some fallacy about how much amateur teams function. Lisban Quintero fails a test. Do you ban the whole foundation elite team? The whole foundation club? All of 1500 members of CRCA, of which foundation is a subteam? What about a team like Lupus who has guys in several cities who may never even meet each other? I don't have contact info for 1/2 the guys who race in my jersey. Some guy I don't see all year fails a test and you want to sully my name or my season? Yeah ok.

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Old 03-26-16, 11:54 AM
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Local boy makes the news. Ex's ex-teammate way back when. And yeah, almost assuredly someone dropped a dime on him.

The collective punishment thing presumes I could have stopped this guy from doping. How? And any assumption that a guy who shoot up anabolics is going to stop because he might eff over a teammate if he gets caught is a pretty big stretch. Any assumption that just because I wear the same jersey I'm doping is as well.

So Doge, what if that applied to your kid and one of his teammates got popped? Are you 100% sure everyone on his team is clean? How can you be?

I go back to my OOC strategy. In competition testing is hoping people are stupid. Knock on some doors a few weeks before Nats or other big events and you'd up the success rate a lot. Or don't bother. It takes a 2 minute search on the juicer forum to find out the clearance time for anabulltesterolePO so in comp testing is mostly hoping people are dumb. Too many guys who doped their asses off tested neg in comp.

Right now it's obvious some guys are picking and choosing events, cutting way back on racing, then showing up at certain events and looking 20 years younger. Or riding faster than they did when they were 20-something pros.

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Old 03-26-16, 12:03 PM
  #668  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing
As a promoter (or former promoter I guess) ....

Ultimately what I want (and what I think most racers want) is to have at least an illusion of "I have a chance". I don't know exactly how to make that work, but the reality is that most licensed racers are 4s or 3s, and given the chance, they'll do 2 races in a day. A promoter needs to be able to leverage that to help meet costs or, if they're doing well, make some money.
As you know the junior fields and many women'd fields are so small. Some can be 0-5 riders and promoters get social media grief when not offering these fields. Then some races they have 15 juniors - all doing Cats, non doing juniors. I've seen women doing men's while not doing women's.

I've bounced this idea around, I'm curious what you think for the for local/regional type racing.

Have 8 (pick a number) categories. All genders and ages race whatever category they are qualified for. No reason a promoter could not have multiple Cat 5 races. Nationals, selection races and the like would be gender, age graded.

Cat 8 - 52X16 gear restrictions, 25 max field. Everyone starts here. Maybe everyone 14+
Cat 7 - 52X16 gear restrictions, 50 max field.
Cat 6 - 52X14 "
...
Cat 1 Maybe what it is today - gender divided
Pro what it is today - gender divided
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Old 03-26-16, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
In one swoop you would end the any team aspect of the sport.
Maybe implement this at the level you have to be part of a team to race. A non doping GC rider benefits from doping teammates - if they are riding as a team. Maybe differentiate between team and club. At some level this is too costly to control and "not worth it", but at the team competition level - I proposed an idea that I think would help.

Originally Posted by gsteinb
It seems to demonstrate that you harbor some fallacy about how much amateur teams function. Lisban Quintero fails a test. Do you ban the whole foundation elite team?
I mentioned this. You penalize all those that were in the race sharing the same jersey. So all riders that started and you could extend to the driver. This is the same concept used in team field sports when someone is late - coach makes the whole team do extra laps. It gets fixed.

Originally Posted by gsteinb
Some guy I don't see all year fails a test and you want to sully my name or my season? Yeah ok.
If implemented, this would not happen. Clubs wouldn't allow that jumping in/jumping out.

You may not like the suggestions, but I don't see anything else that works. Maybe the alternatives are worse than racing with cheaters.
What would you do?
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Old 03-26-16, 12:23 PM
  #670  
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Originally Posted by Doge
What would you do?
I'd end testing for most fields except at nationals and guys who were targeted. It's a joke on any other level. I'd end prize money, except for the elite fields. I race for fun and fitness. I'd quit the second what you proposed was instituted. I'm not hitching my horse to any one else's wagon. I don't need a team to be a serviceable 45+ crit racer. To make it that I had to have a team, and I was beholden to what they did..it would be the end. This is beer league softball, and you want to treat it like it's MLB.
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Old 03-26-16, 12:26 PM
  #671  
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What does "guys who were targeted" mean?
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Old 03-26-16, 12:28 PM
  #672  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
What does "guys who were targeted" mean?
Like the guys they caught through papp's website (and never spoke of), or the guy they know is selling epo or other stuff. Tips. Most of these tests aren't random. They're there for a guy.
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Old 03-26-16, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
...
So Doge, what if that applied to your kid and one of his teammates got popped? Are you 100% sure everyone on his team is clean? How can you be?...
I can't be. But the selection of team may be done more carefully if this were enforced. I guess if one teammate were cheating at least one other teammate would know about it. As it is now there is no external driver to cause that to be reported.

Also, serving a suspension for a teammate cheating does not make you a cheater. It is just part of being on a team. No different than other team sports. If deflate gate had resulted in a game loss, those defensive lineman would have suffered for it. As it is they benefited from Brady's actions. But I wouldn't call them cheaters.

Same for cycling.
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Old 03-26-16, 12:34 PM
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Speaking of dopers, Cesar Marte's back. Won in branchbrook today.
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Old 03-26-16, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
... This is beer league softball, and you want to treat it like it's MLB.
No I don't. I gave a proposal on how to end it. Your proposal won't end it outside of Nationals. I'm fine with that. I think doping is cheating, but not worth the cost of enforcing at certain levels. I did not want to presume your level was not worth fixing.

The level that I think is worth fixing race as teams.
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