"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Ride Clean

Old 12-02-15, 06:23 PM
  #76  
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Posts: 9,630
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Depends on the test. The vast majority of testing, especially of amateurs, is urine testing. Urine tests are relatively cheap. Blood tests are a lot more expensive.
grolby is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 06:27 PM
  #77  
cmh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by grolby View Post
Depends on the test. The vast majority of testing, especially of amateurs, is urine testing. Urine tests are relatively cheap. Blood tests are a lot more expensive.
You also have to account for having the testers show up to the race (likely flights and hotels) and handling the samples in a controlled manner. I bet there is a set fee of a few thousand just to have testers show up, plus extra for each sample tested, but I'm just guessing. Still, I'm for the increased fee even if it means testing at just a few more races.
cmh is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 06:35 PM
  #78  
Ygduf
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,974

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 107 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 965 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
yes, fair enough.

but before you go patting yourself on the back, i was just making a different point than the upgrade-specific comments you made, and i didn't agree with "IRL" vs offline.

fwiw, i've never heard anyone denigrate a pack finish upgrade, but i have heard had cat 1 upgrades talked about (no, it's not about you!) and p12 wins. my POV is that one can't control who show sup and no win is ever easy. not everyone shares that stance.
Cat 1 is the only upgrade where some cat-6 guy asked me what category I raced and they seemed genuinely impressed. For that alone the years of work and toil were worth it.

It also proves definitively that self-coaching is the way to go.

I think people upgrading however they want is a fine goal. I hope 2->1 is never achievable via masters-only racing only because I selfishly like having that 1 and I prefer it remain as hard to get as possible.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 06:36 PM
  #79  
Ygduf
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,974

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 107 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 965 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by cmh View Post
no substantial crashes, have fun.
I want to add these to my lists, and for everyone else too. Crashing hurts. I'd forgotten a little.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 06:43 PM
  #80  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cmh View Post
You also have to account for having the testers show up to the race (likely flights and hotels) and handling the samples in a controlled manner. I bet there is a set fee of a few thousand just to have testers show up, plus extra for each sample tested, but I'm just guessing. Still, I'm for the increased fee even if it means testing at just a few more races.
whether it is urine or blood, isn't the deal that they have to follow a strict protocol that is different from your run-of-the-mill lab test, in case there are disputes? security, storage of samples, etc....i'd imagine that adds quite a bit more to the cost.

i'm genuinely curious. i had heard some high #s per test discussed in the past, really high. i wonder what the real answer is.

my guess? $500/test, all-in.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 06:52 PM
  #81  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
Cat 1 is the only upgrade where some cat-6 guy asked me what category I raced and they seemed genuinely impressed. For that alone the years of work and toil were worth it.

It also proves definitively that self-coaching is the way to go.

I think people upgrading however they want is a fine goal. I hope 2->1 is never achievable via masters-only racing only because I selfishly like having that 1 and I prefer it remain as hard to get as possible.
any upgrade is impressive. a cat 1 shows deep commitment on multiple levels. people should be proud of hard work to achieve a goal.

i agree that the points system shouldn't be based on age-adjusted performances, which then grant entry to non-age-restricted stuff.

late starter in the sport? well...it's not a participation thing. live in an area where there isn't 3 options to race every weekend? tough.

you beat 45yo cat 1s in a 45+ 1/2/3 race? you don't race the NRC.

(takes nothing away from that win....lots of masters racers are insanely good...but it doesn't warrant the upgrade IMO.)

i wonder what the stats are on # of legacy 1s (who don't race p1 any more) vs active 1s who have been in a p/1 race in the current year.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 06:54 PM
  #82  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
is there any reason for being a cat 1 other than being able to race in cat 1 only or pro/1 fields?
well, if you're a 1 then you can blame the crashes in the p12 field on the 2s who don't know how to race/handle their bikes....and then it is only the smaller set of pro riders who can blame the 1s.


more people to blame, less people to blame you. win-win...or something.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:07 PM
  #83  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
love this. didn't watch the clip but i instantly remembered it from whenever it originally aired.

comparing this guy to homer simpson would give him more credit than he deserves.

he was facing a HUGE felony charge....20+ years in federal prison. kind of sad as he was clearly just a runner and not the brains of an operation. he was probably seduced by a few grand and didn't realize the significant risk.

stopped for a tail light out when you're carrying that much? you don't check that everything on your vehicle is tip-top and that you do full stops at every stop sign and drive 24 in a 25?? rumor was that it must have been some kind of tip-off from a rival.

wonder what the outcome of his case was. last i heard he was on house arrest and living with his parents on long island.

anyone know of a way to look up status of a case when you know the jurisdiction + name of those involved? last time i checked a few years ago i couldn't find anything through public sources.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:09 PM
  #84  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,723
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 528 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
whether it is urine or blood, isn't the deal that they have to follow a strict protocol that is different from your run-of-the-mill lab test, in case there are disputes? security, storage of samples, etc....i'd imagine that adds quite a bit more to the cost.

i'm genuinely curious. i had heard some high #s per test discussed in the past, really high. i wonder what the real answer is.

my guess? $500/test, all-in.
I was poking around and saw some figures from associations that brought testing in and it was a few thousand a day.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:18 PM
  #85  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,428
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
whether it is urine or blood, isn't the deal that they have to follow a strict protocol that is different from your run-of-the-mill lab test, in case there are disputes? security, storage of samples, etc....i'd imagine that adds quite a bit more to the cost.
A chain of custody record is basically free except for the time it takes to fill out and take a couple pictures. Storage conditions and the procedure used should not change much from the routine other than locking things up. Run-of-the-mill samples are important too.

Travel expenses would add up very fast.
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:22 PM
  #86  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
A chain of custody record is basically free except for the time it takes to fill out and take a couple pictures. Storage conditions and the procedure used should not change much from the routine other than locking things up. Run-of-the-mill samples are important too.
interesting? i'd assumed it was more complex than you describe.

isn't there a requirement to keep these samples for years? my local lab tosses my blood sample right after they analyze it (i've asked -- when an instruction was missed from my doctor). i would think that storage and tracking would cost a fair bit.

pretty interesting to see where the money actually goes.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:26 PM
  #87  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
I was poking around and saw some figures from associations that brought testing in and it was a few thousand a day.
seems like there would be a bang-for-the-buck deal going....do a bunch of testing at once, minimize travel expenses as a % of each test.

i've often thought it would be funny to show up at a race with a white van with USADA stickers and doping control stenciled on it -- park it near registration and see who walks away. if stories are true, could be especially funny in some regions' masters events.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:27 PM
  #88  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
I was poking around and saw some figures from associations that brought testing in and it was a few thousand a day.
it would be kind of neat if somehow the dopers could foot the bill for the testing.

e.g., if you are caught, the penalties include funding your own testing and more.

probably impossible, but nice in theory.

i like the idea of having a convicted doper having to man the reg table at all events they participated in during their period of doping. (someone else's idea, but i thought it was funny...and appropriate.)
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:28 PM
  #89  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,723
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 528 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 2 Posts
a NJ promoter floated a rumor at one of his races a couple years back that it would be tested. I think he wrote it on the sign in sheet. A number of riders dropped out of one of the races, and several got stuck in traffic. I won, btw
gsteinb is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:29 PM
  #90  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,428
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
isn't there a requirement to keep these samples for years?
Yeah, they are stored until the client authorizes the disposal which can be quite a long time (2-3 years on average).
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:34 PM
  #91  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
Yeah, they are stored until the client authorizes the disposal which can be quite a long time (2-3 years on average).
and that administration doesn't materially add to the cost?
@Hermes -- did your wife have to get into the whole testing pool to go for her (national? world?) record? i read about that for some hour record participants; not sure if it applied to her. wasn't inexpensive.

enthalpic, is the main difference that our amateur samples are essentially one-offs, vs longitudinal tracking of the pros?

i thought there were special labs, proper chain of command, and a whole bunch of other things going on, but perhaps that is just simply what every industry does to make outsiders think things are far more complex than what is really going on.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:53 PM
  #92  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,428
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
and that administration doesn't materially add to the cost?

enthalpic, is the main difference that our amateur samples are essentially one-offs, vs longitudinal tracking of the pros?

i thought there were special labs, proper chain of command, and a whole bunch of other things going on, but perhaps that is just simply what every industry does to make outsiders think things are far more complex than what is really going on.
We don't charge our clients extra for storage so I kind of dismissed that, but yes, we have a glorified storage garage which was far from free. All of the extra expenses of a "legal" sample get rolled into one price multiplier, which varies by test, but isn't as large as you might think.

Longitudinal tracking is usually done with a database by the client - not the lab.

If you are talking about new drugs and having to develop new tests that is another story.
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 07:57 PM
  #93  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 20,723
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 528 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 2 Posts
can they test for things like epo with urine?
gsteinb is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 08:32 PM
  #94  
grolby
Senior Member
 
grolby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BOSTON BABY
Posts: 9,630
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The EPO urine test was pretty famously developed in the early 2000s (after being delayed a few years) and caused a big shift in doping technique from just injecting EPO to blood transfusions. It still catches amateur dopers, cause homologous blood transfusions require much more resources and coordination than just injecting drugs.
grolby is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 08:37 PM
  #95  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,087

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 260 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by grolby View Post
The EPO urine test was pretty famously developed in the early 2000s (after being delayed a few years) and caused a big shift in doping technique from just injecting EPO to blood transfusions. It still catches amateur dopers, cause homologous blood transfusions require much more resources and coordination than just injecting drugs.
Because initially the guy developing the test was part of the cadre of doctors doping his riders. I think anyway.

My understanding is that the EPO urine test only catches non-micro-dosing, i.e. regular injections. Microdosing (small amounts in the blood stream? correct me if I'm wrong) won't get caught out by a urine test because the EPO is gone in 10 or 12 hours.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 08:47 PM
  #96  
Ygduf
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 10,974

Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.

Mentioned: 107 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 965 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
it would be kind of neat if somehow the dopers could foot the bill for the testing.

e.g., if you are caught, the penalties include funding your own testing and more.

probably impossible, but nice in theory.

i like the idea of having a convicted doper having to man the reg table at all events they participated in during their period of doping. (someone else's idea, but i thought it was funny...and appropriate.)
Ban time + $10,000 fine. If you don't want to ever race again and never be reinstated you wouldn't have to pay.
Ygduf is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 08:50 PM
  #97  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
Ban time + $10,000 fine. If you don't want to ever race again and never be reinstated you wouldn't have to pay.
i'm torn about super harsh penalties.

on the one hand, since so very few are caught, i think you need a big deterrent. a lifetime ban makes sense in that context.

on the other, no matter how careful you are you occasionally wind up with amateur who legitimately made a mistake or took some off-brand vitamin that was tainted. sure, it's on him to know, but there are degrees of guilt.

if i had to decide, i'd choose to throw a few babies out with the bathwater....but what if one of us were the baby? maybe it's not so simple.
tetonrider is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 09:17 PM
  #98  
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
whether it is urine or blood, isn't the deal that they have to follow a strict protocol that is different from your run-of-the-mill lab test, in case there are disputes? security, storage of samples, etc....i'd imagine that adds quite a bit more to the cost.

i'm genuinely curious. i had heard some high #s per test discussed in the past, really high. i wonder what the real answer is.

my guess? $500/test, all-in.
Between $700-$750.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 09:20 PM
  #99  
shovelhd
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Posts: 15,669

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
seems like there would be a bang-for-the-buck deal going....do a bunch of testing at once, minimize travel expenses as a % of each test.

i've often thought it would be funny to show up at a race with a white van with USADA stickers and doping control stenciled on it -- park it near registration and see who walks away. if stories are true, could be especially funny in some regions' masters events.
You don't need to. Just put the Race Clean logo on your race flyer.
shovelhd is offline  
Old 12-02-15, 09:22 PM
  #100  
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,449
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
Between $700-$750.
so that's all of 100 extra tests, not 1000.
tetonrider is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.