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Old 01-10-17, 12:47 PM
  #1351  
tommyrod74
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Originally Posted by SprinterSmak
If you have the time to sit down and research my race results and then find out who these women are, then surely you would discover that my race history is mediocre at best. And considering the women's 1/2/3 racing population in my region is less than 100 women, you could pretty easily conclude that their race results are nothing worth getting worked up about. I see no physiological advantage here.

With two out of <100 racers being transgendered I think you would be able to pinpoint pretty quickly if there was some kind of unfair advantage. Bottom line is these are real world results, not lab fabricated tests done in unreal settings. It's not worth getting your panties in a bunch about. I'm far more concerned with the prevalence of amateur doping (particularly in men's racing) than transgendered women standing next to me at the start line.
You see no physiological advantage for the two trans women you have personal experience racing against, that's as far as you can generalize your experience.

However, the question isn't necessarily "are these women winning?". It might be posed as " are these women finishing higher than they would had they not benefited from male puberty?".

What if one of them had been a dominant racer as a male, then transitioned and was a dominant female racer?

Think of it like this: if a cis male dopes, but the doping only brings him from off-the-back to midpack, did he cheat? Is it fair or unfair?

If we say it is fair for him, how do we say it's unfair for someone who uses doping to go from midpack to the podium?

I think this is a complicated subject that may not be as simple or as clear as the right to change gender identity (which I believe is a clear human right).

ETA: I fully agree that doping is a much larger concern, but I don't think that addressing the larger concern necessitates ignoring the smaller one.

Further ETA: I really don't know the right course of action here. If in the position of a trans woman athlete, I'd want to compete. If in the position of a cis woman athlete, I might feel at an unfair disadvantage against a trans woman.

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Old 01-10-17, 01:20 PM
  #1352  
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Originally Posted by tommyrod74
snip/...
I think this is a complicated subject that may not be as simple or as clear as the right to change gender identity (which I believe is a clear human right).
ETA: I fully agree that doping is a much larger concern, but I don't think that addressing the larger concern necessitates ignoring the smaller one.
Further ETA: I really don't know the right course of action here. If in the position of a trans woman athlete, I'd want to compete. If in the position of a cis woman athlete, I might feel at an unfair disadvantage against a trans woman.
It's a tricky think, especially when biology does funny things.There's that South African runner who apparently is physically female, but whose body supposedly produces male levels of testosterone (I can't verify either of those suppositions, I've just heard - and read - innuendo). Many people felt racing against her was unfair, but her "advantage" was just solely due to biology. Would it be "fair" for me try to exclude Andre the Giant from a wrestling tournament that he and I were both in because he had a quirk in his biology that made him so much bigger than me? There was a time in elementary/middle school that I wish that, if I worked hard enough, I could be a pro basketball player. Is it fair that other people were genetically gifted to be tall and my parents topped out at 5'7? So yeah, I don't know. If physical gender were a clear cut things with easily defined edges and everyone within those boundaries having similar characteristics, it would be an easy call to make.

In high school, I was a decent sprinter in track and a really ****ty distance runner, but I ran cross country anyway because I liked the experience/challenge even though I was no good. Because I was so slow in my first year or 2, the coach often made me practice with the girls' team because I could keep up with the boys and slowed the practices down when I ran with the boys. I wish I could say that if I'd suddenly been able to compete with the girls I would have won, but it's not true, not even close. I was a sprinter and had a sprinter's musculature and mindset (no matter how tired I was from the race and felt like I was going to drop over, if there was someone between me and the finish line with 2-300 meters left, I magically had a sprint and caught them). If we all started at the same starting point and got the same amount of improvement for working equally hard, looking at issues of gender (and transgender) in sport might be a lot easier and more clear cut. But we're not all an athletic tabula rasa and that makes things messy.

Interesting for an outsider whose results aren't affected, but I can see how it would lead to a lot of hurt feelings either way among those who are affected.
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Old 01-10-17, 01:22 PM
  #1353  
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Originally Posted by tommyrod74
You see no physiological advantage for the two trans women you have personal experience racing against, that's as far as you can generalize your experience.

However, the question isn't necessarily "are these women winning?". It might be posed as " are these women finishing higher than they would had they not benefited from male puberty?".

What if one of them had been a dominant racer as a male, then transitioned and was a dominant female racer?

Think of it like this: if a cis male dopes, but the doping only brings him from off-the-back to midpack, did he cheat? Is it fair or unfair?

If we say it is fair for him, how do we say it's unfair for someone who uses doping to go from midpack to the podium?

I think this is a complicated subject that may not be as simple or as clear as the right to change gender identity (which I believe is a clear human right).

ETA: I fully agree that doping is a much larger concern, but I don't think that addressing the larger concern necessitates ignoring the smaller one.

Further ETA: I really don't know the right course of action here. If in the position of a trans woman athlete, I'd want to compete. If in the position of a cis woman athlete, I might feel at an unfair disadvantage against a trans woman.

If the question is 'are they finishing higher than they would having not benefited from male puberty?'

If you can %100 tell me that these women are benefiting than I'd say u are kidding yourself. The same women that started this discussion, who won the tour de Tucson seems to have done better competing as a male against males. Going back to 2011-

4/25 crit
4/20 crit
6/13 crit
2/58 rr
1/7 xc
3/11 crit
8/29 crit
10/24 crit
3/18 crit
7/39 rr

I'm seeing top ten finishes across the board. Do you mean to tell me she carried that into women's racing? I think her results speak for themselves. If she was still carrying that physiological advantage there would be evidence.

You are talking about a cheater (a man that dopes) vs a women who is competing in accordance with a rule the IOC has already passed. There is no cheating here. And, unless you can show me results that say otherwise, no advantage.
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Old 01-10-17, 01:37 PM
  #1354  
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Originally Posted by SprinterSmak
And, unless you can show me results that say otherwise, no advantage.
Outside the entire discussion, that is a really shoddy argument. I could just link CBs results and be like "proof." It would be equally unsubstantiated as your argument above.
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Old 01-10-17, 02:03 PM
  #1355  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
Outside the entire discussion, that is a really shoddy argument. I could just link CBs results and be like "proof." It would be equally unsubstantiated as your argument above.
I don't know her history so I can't comment on that.

This is much more than a scientific argument, for sure. But i find it very hard to believe there is enough of an advantage for these women to put the rest of the field at as much of a disadvantage as you are portraying. At least that's what my brief googling has come up with. That also supports my personal experience in real world conditions. If what you are saying is true, I thoroughly expect to see a transgendered women on every Olympic rowing, weightlifting, wrestling, and cycling team in the next Olympic cycle. Just think! It will be the easiest way to get a leg up on the competition while still playing within the rules! Russia will have to step up their PED game to even have a chance.
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Old 01-10-17, 02:18 PM
  #1356  
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Originally Posted by SprinterSmak
If the question is 'are they finishing higher than they would having not benefited from male puberty?'

If you can %100 tell me that these women are benefiting than I'd say u are kidding yourself. The same women that started this discussion, who won the tour de Tucson seems to have done better competing as a male against males. Going back to 2011-

4/25 crit
4/20 crit
6/13 crit
2/58 rr
1/7 xc
3/11 crit
8/29 crit
10/24 crit
3/18 crit
7/39 rr

I'm seeing top ten finishes across the board. Do you mean to tell me she carried that into women's racing? I think her results speak for themselves. If she was still carrying that physiological advantage there would be evidence.

You are talking about a cheater (a man that dopes) vs a women who is competing in accordance with a rule the IOC has already passed. There is no cheating here. And, unless you can show me results that say otherwise, no advantage.
I can't 100% say anything. Neither can you. That's kind of the point.

I'm not calling it cheating, I'm wondering aloud if it's an unfair advantage. And, if so, what the right way to handle it might be.

Again, I don't mean to tell you anything. I do, however, agree with an earlier observation by another poster - that there is no research directly addressing sports with a power component (in cycling's case, sprinting) and the advantages that might be conferred via a body that underwent male puberty.

Data isn't the plural of anecdote (or, in your case, datum isn't the singular of it). You can't generalize your experience across all trans athletes.

Again, I'm just acknowledging that it likely isn't as simple as it appears.
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Old 01-10-17, 02:20 PM
  #1357  
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Originally Posted by SprinterSmak
I don't know her history so I can't comment on that.

This is much more than a scientific argument, for sure. But i find it very hard to believe there is enough of an advantage for these women to put the rest of the field at as much of a disadvantage as you are portraying. At least that's what my brief googling has come up with. That also supports my personal experience in real world conditions. If what you are saying is true, I thoroughly expect to see a transgendered women on every Olympic rowing, weightlifting, wrestling, and cycling team in the next Olympic cycle. Just think! It will be the easiest way to get a leg up on the competition while still playing within the rules! Russia will have to step up their PED game to even have a chance.
I don't think most people here are saying that males will pretend to be transgendered to have a competitive advantage. That's not the same as saying that a trans woman with unintentional unfair advantage might pose a dilemma.
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Old 01-10-17, 02:42 PM
  #1358  
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Originally Posted by tommyrod74
I can't 100% say anything. Neither can you. That's kind of the point.

I'm not calling it cheating, I'm wondering aloud if it's an unfair advantage. And, if so, what the right way to handle it might be.

Again, I don't mean to tell you anything. I do, however, agree with an earlier observation by another poster - that there is no research directly addressing sports with a power component (in cycling's case, sprinting) and the advantages that might be conferred via a body that underwent male puberty.

Data isn't the plural of anecdote (or, in your case, datum isn't the singular of it). You can't generalize your experience across all trans athletes.

Again, I'm just acknowledging that it likely isn't as simple as it appears.
Considering that the population of transgender people is %.6 then I feel like my experience with these athletes and data from that experience is pretty damn good. Then add the athlete from Tucson and I'm thinking maybe my experience isn't a fluke.
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Old 01-10-17, 02:50 PM
  #1359  
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Originally Posted by SprinterSmak
Considering that the population of transgender people is %.6 then I feel like my experience with these athletes and data from that experience is pretty damn good. Then add the athlete from Tucson and I'm thinking maybe my experience isn't a fluke.
Agree to disagree, then.

While I'm certainly not calling your experience a fluke, I'm also not going to agree it's necessarily generalizable to all similar situations, across all sports.
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Old 01-10-17, 07:04 PM
  #1360  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
Outside the entire discussion, that is a really shoddy argument. I could just link CBs results and be like "proof." It would be equally unsubstantiated as your argument above.
Outside the argument as well, the juniors that got drug busted 2016... He was outside the top 100 in the Belgium race where he got busted (and my son was at).

Bringing in performance and fairness muddy the water a bit.
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Old 01-10-17, 07:11 PM
  #1361  
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Originally Posted by Heathpack
...I feel it's pretty likely that if this issue impacted men's athletics primarily, rather than woman's, different decisions might be made. ...
It does, just not well known in cycling yet. Also a reason I don't trust the NCAA to set and enforce standards.
"Bailar is taking testosterone now, which the NCAA permits in situations like Bailar's. "
A Transgender Harvard swimmer's choice - CBS News
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Old 01-10-17, 08:47 PM
  #1362  
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Originally Posted by tommyrod74
I don't think most people here are saying that males will pretend to be transgendered to have a competitive advantage. That's not the same as saying that a trans woman with unintentional unfair advantage might pose a dilemma.
That is what I think Doge was alluding to with his college scholarship bit, but I think you're right that most of the rest of us are wondering about.
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Old 01-11-17, 05:43 PM
  #1363  
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Originally Posted by himespau
That is what I think Doge was alluding to with his college scholarship bit, but I think you're right that most of the rest of us are wondering about.
Not so much alluding to. The Olympics, and NCAA (and the golfing folks) are changing standards that allow others to compete in open competition with advantages others do not have. It is not cheating, it is just committees decide if it is OK or not. My preference is open classes remain open and there are no exceptions.
Exception examples:
-Running with blades
-Having a Y chromosome vs those without
-Artificial eye with enhanced focus for a shooter (won Gold)
-Riding in a cart while others walk
-taking Testosterone while others may not
-taking Insulin while other may not
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Old 01-12-17, 06:28 AM
  #1364  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Not so much alluding to. The Olympics, and NCAA (and the golfing folks) are changing standards that allow others to compete in open competition with advantages others do not have. It is not cheating, it is just committees decide if it is OK or not. My preference is open classes remain open and there are no exceptions.
Exception examples:

-taking Insulin while other may not

As someone who at one point NEEDED to take insulin (and may need it again in the future), I can not understand why you are so hung up on this.



Go ahead and tell all of the diabetic athletes and teams out there that they aren't allowed to race because they are cheating/have an unfair advantage over everyone else. Let me know how it goes.
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Old 01-12-17, 07:20 AM
  #1365  
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Doge, I'm also not sure what your issue is with the golfer who needed a cart. From what I remember, he had a genetic deformity that resulted in him being unable to walk the length of a golf course. He could still swing a club though. The cart allowed him to complete a round. It really didn't, IMO, give him any real advantage - and the results showed it.

If pros also had to carry their own bags, which would make the walking more difficult, then yeah, I would agree the cart would have given him an unfair advantage.
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Old 01-12-17, 07:22 AM
  #1366  
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The only genetics that Doge worries about are those that make you the perfect athlete.
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Old 01-12-17, 10:11 AM
  #1367  
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Originally Posted by Wylde06
Go ahead and tell all of the diabetic athletes and teams out there that they aren't allowed to race because they are cheating/have an unfair advantage over everyone else. Let me know how it goes.
I never said any of those were cheating. Any TUEs that any athlete gets in NOT cheating. But many are known to give an advantage.

Essentially committees decide who gets and who does not, rather than allowing all competitors the same thing. I see the same argument for any hormone, or prostheses. I don't trust the committee to get it right. I mean otherwise Wiggins would have had to deal with his allergies, as some of his competitors do.

Part of this on-topic discussion is where to apply and enforce the Ride Clean rules. My opinion is at the top level only. At the non-pro level it doesn't matter so much. It doesn't even matter so much at the Olympics. The IOC is a feel good organization about world peace so that they bend a bit, I get. The Olympics does not even field the best set of athletes in a sport (small population country gets to send an athlete when large population country better athlete stays home).
But the World Champion should not be getting help others may not.
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Old 01-13-17, 10:09 AM
  #1368  
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Haha, when someone calls me phobic and implies I'm a bigot, I get a little paranoid that maybe I subconsciously am (even though I know I'm not). So it causes me to re-visit my positions and thoughts on the subject and I go back to reading about it. Just to be sure.

I came across this very well-written web article that I thought I'd share. It's written by a ringside physician from the point of view of "as relates to transgender athletes, how do we ensure fairly matched competition in combat sports (like boxing) so that we don't unnecessarily expose competitors to risk of serious injury?".

The article explains very well why the current IOC decision is a policy decision, not a scientific consensus statement, and what the differences are.

It explains that there are issues of physiology, which are largely influenced by testosterone levels. But also issues of anatomy and body morphology, which are only partially influenced by testosterone. It addresses why age of transition is a factor.

Then the article goes on to talk about how all of these issues affect combat sports specifically. Besides just being interesting to see what factors are important in other sports, I this section really drives home the point that sport is not sports, one thing. Different sports require different physiologic and anatomic attributes for athletic success and really each sport should be looked at independently when figuring out this stuff out.

Definitely worth a read:
https://www.nicholasrizzo.com/ringsid...ransgender.pdf
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Old 01-13-17, 12:40 PM
  #1369  
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For sports Birth Sex or Assigned Sex (defined in your link) is where a lot of the conflict comes from. What seems to matter for sports is a Y chromosome/or not. Those with low T and a Y don't get to make up the difference in T and compete. Those without Ys and low T should have the same restriction.

This stuff is often not fair anymore than the age restrictions are fair. But if we are to group people for competition that is at least as clear as the age part.
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Old 02-22-17, 08:04 AM
  #1370  
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I saw this story and thought I'd post it here: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/tr...210305943.html

A teenage trans male is required by Texas law to wrestle as a female even though he is on testosterone and transitioning to male. His opponent in the championship match forfeited and filed suit claiming it is unfair for him to wrestle her. And he is arguing he would like to wrestle with men, but the state requires him to wrestle against the gender on his birth certificate, which is female. So, it seems like both opponents want the same thing but the rules/laws are preventing it.

Most of our discussions have been the question of trans women, and this covers trans men in sports, so I thought I'd share it.
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Old 02-22-17, 08:49 AM
  #1371  
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Really another TUE case where one participant gets to use something (testosterone) that is banned for others.
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Old 02-22-17, 09:18 AM
  #1372  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Really another TUE case where one participant gets to use something (testosterone) that is banned for others.
nope. a case where rules prevent the sensible thing. Like telling cat 1 women they can't race p12, only p12-women. Dumb.
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Old 02-22-17, 09:57 AM
  #1373  
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The sensible thing is to allow T in male competition?
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Old 02-22-17, 10:16 PM
  #1374  
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He can have his birth certificate changed.
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Old 02-22-17, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
The sensible thing is to allow T in male competition?
Yes. Within the rules. Zero-tolerance is for idiots who can't handle ambiguity of any sort.
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