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Ride Clean

Old 12-03-15, 05:52 PM
  #126  
tetonrider
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
I realize dopers can finish in the middle third of a "pro" mountain bike race, but, to me, that seems like wasted time and money. If you're going to test, test the top 3 and move on. I don't think someone is going to dope and then intentionally finish 4th for the rest of their life.

I can't even comprehend missing a piss test after a mid-pack finish in a "pro" mountain bike race, let alone getting suspended for it. A friend of mine has offered to fly me out for the Sea Otter XC race, which is about as big as it gets in the US short of the odd WC race at Windham. If they tested ME there, that would be a great microcosm of USAC's problems.

I say "pro" because the barrier to entry to that level in MTB is quite low, BTW.
i take your point. targeted testing seems the best use of limited money, but part of me thinks the "anyone, any race" would cause more disruption in the ranks. if you only test at the big events, then you have people who either just avoid those or figure out how to get the stuff out of their system in time. if you only test the upper categories or pros, then the wannabees know that and get a free ticket.

unfortunately, that approach requires lots of tests and $$. as @gsteinb said, some riders will leave the sport rather than face tacking on an extra hour to a race. (i suspect that # is small, but that's just a guess; if it magically made the sport clean, then i'd be ok with it.)

i think to do it right, somebody's gonna have to pay, and some people are going to be angry -- you're never going to please everyone, so just recognize that and move forward with a plan that they (the organization leaders) believe in. if we're questioning the leadership, well, then, that's another topic. i'm assuming that anyone who bothers to put a plan in place is at least TRYING to do some good.
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Old 12-03-15, 06:28 PM
  #127  
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I don't know that I could live with the absurdity of being branded a doper over a missed wiz quiz after a "pro" XC race.

Seriously. I'd never race again.
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Old 12-03-15, 07:24 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
i take your point. targeted testing seems the best use of limited money, but part of me thinks the "anyone, any race" would cause more disruption in the ranks. if you only test at the big events, then you have people who either just avoid those or figure out how to get the stuff out of their system in time. ....
I agree with this. Focus most of the efforts on the top 3 in the top races, but test the occasional random racer and at the occasional mid-level race as well. By the time you get the system in place to test at a particular race, I'm sure the marginal cost to add a couple tests of mid-pack racers isn't that high. A little bit of random testing here and there might not catch any dopers, but it could be enough to deter some racers from doping.
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Old 12-03-15, 09:18 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
I'm unaware of any forum posters who were caught dopers, though most dopers who get caught (amateur) are usually known by someone on the forum in some form.
i recall reading about a post from rkawki (probably wrong spelling) that said he used to do that type of ****, but it turned him into a robot, and now he's clean.
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Old 12-03-15, 09:25 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
I don't know that I could live with the absurdity of being branded a doper over a missed wiz quiz after a "pro" XC race.

Seriously. I'd never race again.
every event i've been to where there has been testing (admittedly few), there was a sign at the finish as you crossed indicating whether or not you had to piss in a cup (in addition to the winner). so, minimal chance of someone just going home without knowing what was up. sure, someone could have missed it, but it's not like it was revealed 45' after everyone crossed the line, in a dark tent, and people had already left the race.

DNFs would have been recorded by officials--if that rider crashed out or had some other issue that caused them not to cross the line, there might be a legit issue, but i imagine there is protocol for that.

bottom line: if you miss a test, it's not good -- but it isn't as easy to miss one as you might think. let's hope it never comes to that for you.
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Old 12-03-15, 09:28 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
I'm unaware of any forum posters who were caught dopers, though most dopers who get caught (amateur) are usually known by someone on the forum in some form.
the community is pretty small. when you consider on this forum that we have at least someone who races in about every region in the US, it's not too shocking that we'd have someone who has raced against (at a minimum) a convicted doper. there's not all that many active 1s, 2s, masters.....and many of us wind up at the same event.

6 degrees of separation? upper-level hobby bike racing is more like 1 or 2.
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Old 12-03-15, 09:33 PM
  #132  
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We all lost the 35-40 Nats crit to Leogrande who'd come off a 2-year ban like 6 months earlier. He rode away from the field, seated, on the last lap. We were all super happy.
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Old 12-04-15, 12:28 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
We all lost the 35-40 Nats crit to Leogrande who'd come off a 2-year ban like 6 months earlier. He rode away from the field, seated, on the last lap. We were all super happy.
so...lifetime ban?

i really want to say yes but every once in a while you'll snag someone who was just naive (and perhaps more of them if testing gets more broad).
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Old 12-04-15, 06:39 AM
  #134  
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There's no doubt that with expanded testing you're going to get some newbie racer on T therapy or some woman on something or other. People who aren't 'cheating' per se, but taking things that are lifestyle choices, or for medical reasons, or that they're unaware are illegal because let's face it…most folks are hobbyists. This is a hobby. We are all hobbyists. And people have different levels of involvement with nuances of their hobby.
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Old 12-04-15, 07:32 AM
  #135  
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For most it is a hobby, but for some, Junior, U23, and Elite, it is a stepping stone to a profession as well as the Olympics. We cannot ignore that. Now if we are talking purely grassroots racing, absolutely.
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Old 12-04-15, 08:04 AM
  #136  
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Well as my ears were burning I came to learn that my name came up on this thread so I thought I better jump in and clarify (not been on the forum in forever).
A few years ago I did mention that I was a huge abuser but it had nothing to do with cycling. I had stopped racing and began bodybuilding/powerlifting more seriously. I had posted about it to shed some light on my thoughts on banned substances.
But to clarify I've never raced using banned substances not been popped for their use.
Truth is, in my case, I work my ass off to get the results I have. Right now that means I am training 2-3 times a day (1 weightroom session and 1-2 bike sessions) and I have the support of many around me to achieve some of the goals I've laid out for 2016.
As some of you are my Facebook friends and see what I post you can validate that work very, very hard to be competitive (not saying that others here don't). Unfortunately with that comes continued doping allegations as I am so big in comparison to those that I race against.
Truth is that the amount of doping in the amateur ranks (not even going to comment on the Pros) is more widespread than I think many would want to acknowledge but this is not confined to cycling. Take a look at football, baseball, etc. at the high school level.
Outside of that, hope everyone is doing well and might have to try to spend more time around here if time permits...
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Old 12-04-15, 08:10 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
For most it is a hobby, but for some, Junior, U23, and Elite, it is a stepping stone to a profession as well as the Olympics. We cannot ignore that. Now if we are talking purely grassroots racing, absolutely.
true enough, but there are only like 8 guys on the olympic team. My concern goes back to what Grumpy posted re: barriers to participation. For many being drug tested will be a step too high for what they want to be involved in. And it, to my, mind will expand the lure of fondos and grinders and such. Thinning the base of racers, creating a competition for limited course resources, and making it more difficult to put on 'race' events. I also truly beleive the only reason some of these guys got caught was that the testing is so rare. I don't believe they would have caught Meeker otherwise. He certainly has the funds and track record to cheat smarter. And David Anthony said the only reason he got caught was that he didn't take seriously the prospect of being tested at the NY Gran Fondo. He was out for a fun day with his friends. Had he thought he'd get tested he would have skipped a few days of epo and his system would have been clear. So it's possible cheaters will just cheat smarter.
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Old 12-04-15, 08:11 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
true enough, but there are only like 8 guys on the olympic team. My concern goes back to what Grumpy posted re: barriers to participation. For many being drug tested will be a step too high for what they want to be involved in. And it, to my, mind will expand the lure of fondos and grinders and such. Thinning the base of racers, creating a competition for limited course resources, and making it more difficult to put on 'race' events. I also truly beleive the only reason some of these guys got caught was that the testing is so rare. I don't believe they would have caught Meeker otherwise. He certainly has the funds and track record to cheat smarter. And David Anthony said the only reason he got caught was that he didn't take seriously the prospect of being tested at the NY Gran Fondo. He was out for a fun day with his friends. Had he thought he'd get tested he would have skipped a few days of epo and his system would have been clear. So it's possible cheaters will just cheat smarter.
Where is the 'Like' button?
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Old 12-04-15, 08:19 AM
  #139  
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It's also possible that some things go back to the old days. Maybe it should be hard to be a 1 and stay a 1. There was a time that it was basically national team guys. And prize money could be eliminated, reducing (though not eliminating) the draw to cheat. Maybe the testing should be fairly extensive for guys making, or trying to make money at this, but perhaps not so much for vast sea of hobbyists. My heart continues to speak the words 'if someone wants to cheat at their hobby, **** 'em.' It's like cheating to win a board game with your family. Sure you won, but you're still an *******.
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Old 12-04-15, 08:39 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
if someone wants to cheat at their hobby, **** 'em.' It's like cheating to win a board game with your family. Sure you won, but you're still an *******.

Some novel, can't remember what novel, has a plastic surgeon character who soothes his moral misgivings by reassuring himself that no matter how much he is serving the decadent vanity of his patients, their children will still have big ugly noses.
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Old 12-04-15, 09:04 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
so...lifetime ban?

i really want to say yes but every once in a while you'll snag someone who was just naive (and perhaps more of them if testing gets more broad).
how about a lifetime ban and $$ for 5 tests to be administered randomly over the next 5 years.

Presumably Kayle passed the doping at nats after he won, so what it's worth besides an annoyance I dunno.
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Old 12-04-15, 09:25 AM
  #142  
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All good points Gsteinb which I agree with. The only thing I'll add is that while there may only be 8 Olympic road slots, there is track, and when we're talking about pros, you have to add CX. How many amateurs are seriously shooting for an Olympic berth or a pro contract? It has to at least be hundreds. Not a trivial number. I think you are looking at the situation primarily from a Masters road lens.

Barriers to entry is kind of a straw man argument. It's real, for sure, but look at triathlon. Much higher barrier to entry even for the hobbyist sprint athlete yet its popularity dwarfs cycling. It's also rife with dopers at all levels, and has a pro carrot.
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Old 12-04-15, 09:34 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
I think you are looking at the situation primarily from a Masters road lens.
Not at all, actually. The number of guys from 5-2, +masters and women who have no horse in chasing some sort of paying gig far far exceeds those seeking a career or high high end hobby. There's not very many people on the olympic track team either. So sure there are people in that program or near that pool, and they can and should certainly be tested but tossing a little bit more money at testing amateur racers just doesn't seem to be a wise use of time and resources to me.



I don't believe the barriers to participation to Tri are fairly looked at when compared to cycling. The overwhelming majority of triathletes are 'let's try (pun!) this" people who just want to finish or hang with their friends. There's one in every town around here. Every one. People do 1 and may never do it again. But they're really easy to do. Now look at cycling where the races are harder to find, much more competitive, and now you're agreeing to be dope tested.
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Old 12-04-15, 10:11 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
how about a lifetime ban and $$ for 5 tests to be administered randomly over the next 5 years.
i'd been getting stuck on the fact that there is no way to collect on the $$, but reading your post this morning made me think about itas a requirement of returning to the sport. interesting.

Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
Presumably Kayle passed the doping at nats after he won, so what it's worth besides an annoyance I dunno.
i looked up the results of your crit a moment ago (to make sure the first name was matching the last name and that you weren't referring to a 2nd person). looks like he and 2 others were credited with a 1" gap vs the riders behind him.

did he really ride away? did he get caught at the line?

i know the 2nd place rider personally. i would never make any statements about him being 100% clean, but he is a nasty (good) crit racer. he might say we're friends (he contacts me to ride when in the area)--but the guy can race his bike. he traveled to cali and won nevada city (masters), still places in the top 10 in NCC events, etc. he does go around trying to sell his supplement, though.... (seriously)
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Old 12-04-15, 10:13 AM
  #145  
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Doping is big in more than just cycling. Texas started testing high school athletes many years ago for anabolic steroids: https://www.uiltexas.org/health/steroid-information.
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Old 12-04-15, 10:19 AM
  #146  
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I really don't know what the answer is. We'll posit multitudes of opinions and scenarios, but likely not reach a consensus amongst us. One thing I do know though is a bunch of guys who aren't very good who love to yell (online) about dopers and testing as if that's the barrier for them. I suspect their idea is that everyone better than them is a doper. Which circles back to something I think fudgy posted, and that I feel strongly, is the unwholesome sense of accusation of another without any basis other than they beat me. It's kinda cancerous, and one of the main things that's led me to my '**** it' attitude.
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Old 12-04-15, 11:18 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Doping is big in more than just cycling. Texas started testing high school athletes many years ago for anabolic steroids: https://www.uiltexas.org/health/steroid-information.
All states "test" but like the NCAA it is such a large pool with such a small testing budget that hardly anyone ever gets caught.
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Old 12-04-15, 12:05 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
how about a lifetime ban and $$ for 5 tests to be administered randomly over the next 5 years.

Presumably Kayle passed the doping at nats after he won, so what it's worth besides an annoyance I dunno.
Yes, but was he "clean" during his suspension?

I mean, according to some sources, doping can actually permanently alter your physiology. So, he could have doped to the gills during those two years "off", and trained his ass off, and then cleaned up once his suspension ended. And still retained much of the benefits of training at a much higher level for those two years.
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Old 12-04-15, 12:05 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
There's no doubt that with expanded testing you're going to get some newbie racer on T therapy or some woman on something or other. People who aren't 'cheating' per se, but taking things that are lifestyle choices, or for medical reasons, or that they're unaware are illegal because let's face it…most folks are hobbyists. This is a hobby. We are all hobbyists. And people have different levels of involvement with nuances of their hobby.
I don't think testing should be expanded all the way down to the newbie ranks (Cat 4,5). By the time someone is Cat 3 or 2 they should be well aware that there is a banned substance list that they can check against any prescriptions. No easy answer though.
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Old 12-04-15, 12:10 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
every event i've been to where there has been testing (admittedly few), there was a sign at the finish as you crossed indicating whether or not you had to piss in a cup (in addition to the winner). so, minimal chance of someone just going home without knowing what was up. sure, someone could have missed it, but it's not like it was revealed 45' after everyone crossed the line, in a dark tent, and people had already left the race.

DNFs would have been recorded by officials--if that rider crashed out or had some other issue that caused them not to cross the line, there might be a legit issue, but i imagine there is protocol for that.

bottom line: if you miss a test, it's not good -- but it isn't as easy to miss one as you might think. let's hope it never comes to that for you.
I've done plenty of MTB races where **** goes wrong. Break a spoke, blow a fork up, eat **** down a ravine. DNF without crossing the finish line. When I broke my hand in October, I had to drive myself to the hospital. The only reason the officials knew I was a DNF was because the Start/Finish area was en route back to my car. I've also done plenty of races where parking wasn't any where near the S/F, and if you had a mishap, it would be ridiculous for you to try to get to both the S/F en route to the parking lot.
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