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Old 08-09-17, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6
Okay, one of my Seattle teammates pointed this out to me. Make sure to read the whole case for this one. It's a bit... different.



In summary, not sure he cheated, could be tainted meat, but not enough proof. Guilty until proven innocent is the way USADA plays apparently. 4 years seems... harsh for someone on their first offense that they don't think intentionally cheated.
well--dude had clenbuterol in his system (which is a known masking agent... no other reason for it) and had no plausible explanation.

seems like he didn't do anything to justify a 2-year sentence to me. glad he got the full ban.
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Old 08-09-17, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
Racists. I'm Welch and we tan awesomely.
Hey, join the club...I am a trackie who recently returned from record attempts and I do bicep curls. That is totally suspicious. I will openly admit that I used self tanning lotion but ONLY out of competition during the winter.

I have heard that doing bicep curls is a masking agent.
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Old 08-09-17, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
well--dude had clenbuterol in his system (which is a known masking agent... no other reason for it) and had no plausible explanation. ...
The meat explanation worked for others.

Seriously, my kid was helping out an orphanage in Mexico and they had meat tacos etc. He was concerned about eating it and didn't. Very weird for a kid, but followed the USAC memo at the time. All this stuff impacts normal life.
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Old 08-10-17, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
The meat explanation worked for others.
yeah, but it sounds that unlike, say, contador, this dude was grasping at even fewer straws and didn't have a cogent answer, let alone any actual evidence.

("uh, i called a guy who worked in the meat department and he said they get meat from mexico. name? uh.... i never asked.")
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Old 08-10-17, 06:57 AM
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Still, I thought 2 years was the standard penalty for a first-time offense?
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Old 08-10-17, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
yeah, but it sounds that unlike, say, contador, this dude was grasping at even fewer straws and didn't have a cogent answer, let alone any actual evidence.

("uh, i called a guy who worked in the meat department and he said they get meat from mexico. name? uh.... i never asked.")
Another reason I say no hearings. The one with the best defense, or who records their conversations - wins.
Most likely this guy is making it up and should be busted.
But it is much easier if you are found with a PED, from meat, or taking it for masking - you get the same suspension.

Yea - I get that is not fair, but it is expedient.
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Old 08-10-17, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
Still, I thought 2 years was the standard penalty for a first-time offense?
i've seen 4 years.

the penalty is usually an indicator of how serious the case was against the sanctioned athlete.

we're just reading a snippet here. my guess is that what he was busted for was viewed as more sever and they deemed there to be evidence of intent beyond the norm.

that's just conjecture based on what i've seen from other 1st time losers getting served with 4.
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Old 08-10-17, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
Yea - I get that is not fair, but it is expedient.
i hear you.

the hearing is another opportunity for justice to be applied unequally.

sometimes when the proverbial 'hands are tied' for punishment you throw a few babies out with the bathwater, but i tend to side with you: harsh penalties regardless of excuse may be the only true deterrent.
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Old 08-10-17, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
...harsh penalties regardless of excuse may be the only true deterrent.
I'm not so into them being harsh, rather certain. I'm OK with harsh, but I think certain works bettrer.

I believe that there are unintentional, real positives. But just like unintentional mechanical issues or overcooking a corner, physics makes the result certain.
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Old 08-11-17, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
Still, I thought 2 years was the standard penalty for a first-time offense?
The rules were changed in 2015:

Athletes can receive a four-year ban after a first offense for the presence, use, attempted use or possession of a prohibited substance or prohibited method, according to the summary.
2015 WADA code adds four-year bans for first offence | Cyclingnews.com

Clenbuterol is a prohibited substance on the WADA prohibited list.
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Old 08-11-17, 01:40 PM
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Arbitrators often split the baby. They gave him 4 years but let him keep the jersey he got a few days after he tested positive. It's a bit bizarre. But I would bet with a lot of certainty that USAC offered up a two year ban if he had gone quietly.

As far as the clenbuterol positive, I have little doubt that, like there are cheaters in cycling, there are cheaters in livestock raising in the US. Anyone here think Clive Bundy wouldn't shoot up his cattle?

FWIW Costco has had supplier issues with meats in the past, where the supplier has violated FDA standards. Five seconds on Google will produce a few million hits on corporate or individual ranchers or processors doing the wrong thing. That's assuming that he didn't eat non-Costco beef prior to that, at parts per trillion we could be talking a week or more for the exposure window.

While it's use is widespread in China and Mexico, Canada has also found it in their meat. Worth noting 90% of Mexican beef exports end up here. We're talking 160 metric tons of beef. And Canada exported 750,000 cattle to the US. There is no systematic testing for it in the beef that ends up in the US supply chain, so accidental exposure by an end user is believable to me.

There are a lot of other positives that I'd not give that same belief to.

Problem is the innocent are going to sound exactly like the guilty.
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Old 08-11-17, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm
Check the diameter of the biceps between the two. How is it that aging guys all have huge biceps compared to "elite" racers?? Maybe they work out more, or maybe... who knows. That's what I notice though.
I was really skinny 137-140 pounds in my 20's, and 129 pounds when I joined the Army at 19. I couldn't put on a pound or any muscle. I look a lot bigger now because of genetics kicking in in my 30's (hello big German branch of the family) and having spent a bunch of years pulling 600 pounds of speargun bands. So that may not be a great litmus.

Last edited by Racer Ex; 08-11-17 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 08-11-17, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
We're talking 160 metric tons of beef.
there's no reason to bring my weight into this
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Old 08-11-17, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
there's no reason to bring my weight into this
People lose weight. I find it. It's weird when your training load on some days is three sprints and three standing starts how you can run the TSS up and the kj down. On the bright side I've got a couple of offers to wrestle sumo.
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Old 08-11-17, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
People lose weight. I find it. It's weird when your training load on some days is three sprints and three standing starts how you can run the TSS up and the kj down. On the bright side I've got a couple of offers to wrestle sumo.
you're racing track at least. good excuse to be burly!
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Old 08-11-17, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ygduf
you're racing track at least. Good excuse to be surly!
fify.
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Old 08-11-17, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
I was really skinny 137-140 pounds in my 20's, and 129 pounds when I joined the Army at 19. I couldn't put on a pound or any muscle. I look a lot bigger now because of genetics kicking in in my 30's (hello big German branch of the family) and having spent a bunch of years pulling 600 pounds of speargun bands. So that may not be a great litmus.
i've broken bread with this guy, and he knows how to live right -- regardless of what the scale might say!
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Old 08-12-17, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
I was really skinny 137-140 pounds in my 20's, and 129 pounds when I joined the Army at 19. I couldn't put on a pound or any muscle. I look a lot bigger now because of genetics kicking in in my 30's (hello big German branch of the family) and having spent a bunch of years pulling 600 pounds of speargun bands. So that may not be a great litmus.
Yeah it's not a litmus test, just an observation. It's totally a thing though!
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Old 08-12-17, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mattm
Yeah it's not a litmus test, just an observation. It's totally a thing though!
I've seen it too, but I also see it among noncyclists who lift weights recreationally.

It's often hard (when trying) to add mass in your teens and 20's, add a few years, then boom! It is hard to keep mass off. Oddly, usually no stronger (or less so) than when younger.

Also, sometimes masters guys ride on the high intensity/low-ish volume plan due to work, family, etc., and high volume will definitely keep the weight off (muscle too).

And I'm sure some is doping-related as well.
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Old 08-12-17, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tommyrod74
I've seen it too, but I also see it among noncyclists who lift weights recreationally.

It's often hard (when trying) to add mass in your teens and 20's, add a few years, then boom! It is hard to keep mass off. Oddly, usually no stronger (or less so) than when younger.

Also, sometimes masters guys ride on the high intensity/low-ish volume plan due to work, family, etc., and high volume will definitely keep the weight off (muscle too).

And I'm sure some is doping-related as well.
My main point is that Masters guys seem to dope the most as far as amateurs go - or at least they get caught the most.

Someone crunch the data and tell me I'm wrong!
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Old 08-12-17, 08:55 PM
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Grew up with the fastest cars and best drugs as teenagers. A trend that continues to follow them into later life. Some guy managing a 50 hour week work to pay down his tuition and hopefully buy a house some day hasn't time or energy to pursue a regiment of doping and ride at night.
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Old 08-12-17, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm
My main point is that Masters guys seem to dope the most as far as amateurs go - or at least they get caught the most.

Someone crunch the data and tell me I'm wrong!
I mean, pros dope the most.
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Old 08-13-17, 12:51 AM
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Menchov & Nibali are a little questionable; never busted though.

Anyway out of amateurs, in the US, masters dope the most. I'm sticking to it until someone proves me wrong!
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Old 08-13-17, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mattm
Menchov & Nibali are a little questionable; never busted though.

Anyway out of amateurs, in the US, masters dope the most. I'm sticking to it until someone proves me wrong!
You're likely right, especially when factoring in disposable income.

Just saying that bigger arms on masters guys may or may not be correlated with doping.
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Old 08-13-17, 08:45 AM
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That's a good point. I don't know too many well-off 1/2s or domestic pros. Most of the teams are broke AF too!
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